[DEFEATED] Commend Christian Democrats

[The Church of Satan]

That leads to the point about RP. Because there's no automatic compliance and there's no direct link between resolutions and issues, we don't really care what someone's policies are. But the GA community does care about prominent GAers saying they don't comply with resolutions. This is Godmoding. And is a legitimate criticism when so many arguments in this proposal rely on CD's contribution to the GA.

If there's no automatic compliance then why is compliance relevant at all? Because RP? Because he participates in the GA's activities? Is that all that matters then? Because In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot more to the resolution at vote than just his activities in the GA.

Also, godmodding!? Don'tcha think you're taking this RP aspect of it just a bit too far with that one? You make it sound like he's wrecking the GA for everyone, cheating the rest of it out of some sort of experience that now is worthless because one person said "No."

[Wallenburg]

That leads to the point about RP. Because there's no automatic compliance and there's no direct link between resolutions and issues, we don't really care what someone's policies are. But the GA community does care about prominent GAers saying they don't comply with resolutions. This is Godmoding. And is a legitimate criticism when so many arguments in this proposal rely on CD's contribution to the GA.

If there's no automatic compliance then why is compliance relevant at all? Because RP? Because he participates in the GA's activities? Is that all that matters then? Because In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot more to the resolution at vote than just his activities in the GA.

Also, godmodding!? Don'tcha think you're taking this RP aspect of it just a bit too far with that one? You make it sound like he's wrecking the GA for everyone, cheating the rest of it out of some sort of experience that now is worthless because one person said "No."

Yes, because RP. RP conventions are important.

[Christian Democrats]

For posterity's sake, I'd like to correct the record on a few points. (Although, I do realize it's a break with this body's usual decorum.)

Isn't CD just a typical Christian democrat like the CDU in Germany?

Yes, the Most Holy and Grand Empire was formed in the aftermath of WW2. It has dioceses in the former Germany and Italy.

What about his declaration of non compliance?

I alluded to my roleplay in the "Access to Abortion" thread. Mass demonstrations by ordinary citizens make it difficult or impossible to abort a child in this nation. Rather than use questionable police tactics to disband protesters, the government lets the protests continue. Facilitating the abortion of Christian Democratic children is at the very bottom of the government's list of priorities. In almost 500 resolutions, the WA has imposed thousands of mandates on member states. Governments need to have enforcement and compliance priorities. My national government places mandates such as locating missing children, prosecuting pirates, or promoting science education much higher in its hierarchy of values than human rights abuses that some nations would like to see this nation commit.

But let's be honest. The manner in which I roleplay this nation has almost nothing to do with superdelegates' votes. If I resigned from the WA tomorrow and if this proposal were resubmitted next week, the outcome would be almost identical.

They probably care more about their views against LGBTs and stuff.

That's also a straw man, or else my views are being misrepresented. In-character, this nation has taken a center-right stance on LGBT issues, and it has complied with all international mandates. Out-of-character, I've never maligned or discriminated against another player for identifying as LGBT. I've had cordial relationships with most players I've met on this game, including players who are gay or bisexual.

I honestly don't know whether I'm being held to an IC standard, an OOC standard, or no standard at all.

[Grishahakkaverchynot]

There is a vast majority vote of against
I voted for
Please vote for.

[The Church of Satan]

Yes, because RP. RP conventions are important.

Well don't you think this presents an opportunity then? A means to enrich this RP? Maybe even a new precedent to write a condemnation, for defying the World Assembly. Instead of the same old thing, this could be an addition to the RP in the GA.

[Wallenburg]

Yes, because RP. RP conventions are important.

Well don't you think this presents an opportunity then? A means to enrich this RP? Maybe even a new precedent to write a condemnation, for defying the World Assembly. Instead of the same old thing, this could be an addition to the RP in the GA.

Condemnations are for "evil RP" that enrich the RP community. UM's noncompliance crap, and by extension CD's, is just lazy, communally harmful behavior.

[Morover]

While the noncompliance going on here is slightly better than the orcs who just say "we won't be complying with this" with no acknowledgment of consequences, it's still a pretty poor way to go about it. In all honesty, any nation engaging in realistic noncompliance would be as silent about the issue as they could manage.

[The Church of Satan]

Condemnations are for "evil RP" that enrich the RP community. UM's noncompliance crap, and by extension CD's, is just lazy, communally harmful behavior.

Well isn't the nature of this non-compliance something that can be worked with? International outrage, debate, a speech from the pope (or religious equivalent) and ultimately a condemnation by the World Assembly for this blatant violation of international law. There's a lot to work with and even I (who isn't good at RP) can see the potential.

[Boda]

Can we yeet this?

[Heavens Reach]

Which is what colors their views on religion. That's just a trueism.

OOC: Sorry, but you don't get to appropriate a nation's views that LGBTQ+ individuals ought to have protections, rights and dignity as anti-religious just because some nation purportedly opposes their protections, rights or dignity on religious grounds. That is not even almost remotely the same as the statement that the SC hates Christians -- that's a ridiculous leap, speaking as an LGBTQ+ Christian.

Facilitating the abortion of Christian Democratic children is at the very bottom of the government's list of priorities.

Good thing you can't abort a child.

Can we yeet this?

What? Like a mercy kill? Because otherwise, it looks like the yeeting is in the past tense ; )

[Wallenburg]

Condemnations are for "evil RP" that enrich the RP community. UM's noncompliance crap, and by extension CD's, is just lazy, communally harmful behavior.

Well isn't the nature of this non-compliance something that can be worked with? International outrage, debate, a speech from the pope (or religious equivalent) and ultimately a condemnation by the World Assembly for this blatant violation of international law. There's a lot to work with and even I (who isn't good at RP) can see the potential.

Maybe UM and CD should capitalize on that potential and actually make their noncompliance interesting, instead of just worsening the problem of orcs saying NUH UH I WON'T COMPLY.

[The Church of Satan]

Maybe UM and CD should capitalize on that potential and actually make their noncompliance interesting, instead of just worsening the problem of orcs saying NUH UH I WON'T COMPLY.

So then why should his commendation be held strictly to the standards of an RP? It has a substantial basis in Gameplay as well but because you don't like that he didn't build a world around his declaration of staunch opposition to a resolution he just isn't worthy of a commendation? What about all of his other accomplishments? Accomplishments that are outside the World Assembly. Are they just so irrelevant that only the GA portion has any substance whatsoever? Don't you think that's rather narrow-minded of you?

[Wallenburg]

Maybe UM and CD should capitalize on that potential and actually make their noncompliance interesting, instead of just worsening the problem of orcs saying NUH UH I WON'T COMPLY.

So then why should his commendation be held strictly to the standards of an RP? It has a substantial basis in Gameplay as well but because you don't like that he didn't build a world around his declaration of staunch opposition to a resolution he just isn't worthy of a commendation? Don't you think that's rather narrow-minded of you?

No, I don't think it's narrow-minded to expect the World Assembly not to commend a nation that openly flaunts its laws in the most lazy way possible, and in a way that does damage to the NS community.

[The Church of Satan]

No, I don't think it's narrow-minded to expect the World Assembly not to commend a nation that openly flaunts its laws in the most lazy way possible, and in a way that does damage to the NS community.

How does it damage the NS community? Has it de-valued RP or something? Is all RP now less than it was before or something? Are all RPers somehow now hurt because someone stated their opposition to a World Assembly resolution? Frankly the notion is incredibly audacious.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Had a Catholic with the record of CD, sans the non-compliance and LGBT opinions, been at vote, this would pass. Ditto for UM.

This is like saying "I'm not anti-Jewish, I just think male circumcision should be banned" or "I'm not anti-Muslim, I just think halal food preparation practices should be banned".

Catholic teaching on sexuality is inseparable from and integral to Catholicism proper. If you oppose Catholic teaching on sexuality, you oppose Catholicism. If you oppose CD's commendation on that basis, you are opposing CD's commendation because of his Catholicism.

I'd much rather people be honest and say "yes, I'm anti-Catholic" then play semantic games.

My Catholic wife is virulently anti-Catholic, then.

Or perhaps there is a more nuanced position than the black and white "either you accept everything or you're a bigot" view that you're trying to propound.

[Lucius Caecilius Iucundus]

For.

[Honeydewistania]

What kind of shit takes have gone on in here? If there was a nation called ‘Secular Democrats’, or ‘Muslim Democrats’, or ‘Jewish Democrats’, and they had the same views as CD I’d still vote against.

[Mundiferrum]

OOC this time: the worst thing about this is people are willing to advertize their religion so, idk, commercially. are these so-called christians trying to proselytize? because people are totally gonna listen to your message once you've denied them their identity.

are they just showing how "christian" they are? whatever happened to "when thou prayest, enter into thy closet"?

and then trying to apply a persecution complex? God, way to demean the struggles of people who are actually imprisoned and scourged for their beliefs! this is a ruddy game -- I get bringing God into all aspects of one's life, but if you were really so good a Christian that your Christianity would play an important role in your being commended, you wouldn't be playing this game in the first place! God, I'm a terrible Christian, with plenty of planks in my eye, but if reviewing Matthew hasn't set me alight about hypocrites---

shake the dust off your feet or shut the fuck up

[Farnhamia]

OOC this time: the worst thing about this is people are willing to advertize their religion so, idk, commercially. are these so-called christians trying to proselytize? because people are totally gonna listen to your message once you've denied them their identity.

are they just showing how "christian" they are? whatever happened to "when thou prayest, enter into thy closet"?

and then trying to apply a persecution complex? God, way to demean the struggles of people who are actually imprisoned and scourged for their beliefs! this is a ruddy game -- I get bringing God into all aspects of one's life, but if you were really so good a Christian that your Christianity would play an important role in your being commended, you wouldn't be playing this game in the first place! God, I'm a terrible Christian, with plenty of planks in my eye, but if reviewing Matthew hasn't set me alight about hypocrites---

shake the dust off your feet or shut the fuck up

*** Warned for flaming ***

[Alcala-Cordel]

OOC - I don't personally care enough to write a condemnation for CD, but if someone were to make one I would support it

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: I could not access the internet for the past week, so I was not able to respond to the arguments presented here, but I will summarise the arguments and respond to them.

To start off, I do not believe that CD's OOC views should be applied when considering an IC Commend, and even if we did include them, CD's OOC views on LGBT persons are in alignment with the Church's teachings, which state that LGBT persons must be treated with respect and dignity, and should not be discriminated against, for they are, as all humans, created in the image of God. What people might find problematic is CD's view that homosexual relationships are inferior, and whilst it may be an objectionable view to hold, people seem to be blowing it out of proportion to include hatred of all LGBT people.

As to the non-compliance, I do agree that people should not be flaunting their noncompliance; however, it does seem as if CD is not outright dismissing GA proposals, but rather, cleverly interpreting them to suit their views.

I encourage people to revisit their views on this proposal.

[The New California Republic]

As to the non-compliance, I do agree that people should not be flaunting their noncompliance; however, it does seem as if CD is not outright dismissing GA proposals, but rather, cleverly interpreting them to suit their views.

I encourage people to revisit their views on this proposal.

Lol. No. Not commending when the noncompliance continues.

If they want to say that they are mending their ways then we may consider it.

[Bananaistan]

As to the non-compliance, I do agree that people should not be flaunting their noncompliance; however, it does seem as if CD is not outright dismissing GA proposals, but rather, cleverly interpreting them to suit their views.

I encourage people to revisit their views on this proposal.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1402826

This is not clever interpretation. It is outright non-compliance.

[Imperium Anglorum]

CD's OOC views ... state that LGBT persons ... should not be discriminated against

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=248547&p=15229209&hilit=marriage+equality#p15229209

Civil marriage is substantially related to the promotion of procreation.
Procreation is necessary for the survival of any society ... Recognizing gay and lesbian couples does not advance the governmental objective of ensuring the stability of population size.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=236724&p=13990869&hilit=marriage+equality#p13990869

Nobody is denied equal opportunity by a male-female definition of civil marriage. Every individual is equally allowed to marry, and every individual has open to him half of the adult population.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=224918&p=12956876&hilit=marriage+equality#p12956876

Under the guise of equality and contrary to easily recognizable differences between the sexes, we tear down values meant to maintain a well-ordered society so that hedonism can be smuggled in.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=188381&p=9973919&hilit=marriage+equality#p9973919

One can make the claim that "rights" for gays are equal right now ... Every individual, heterosexual or homosexual, can enter into a civil marriage with one individual of the opposite sex.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=188268&p=9942472&hilit=marriage+equality#p9942472

Why use the word "marriage"? Why not make the civil solidarity pact the only kind of union recognized by the state? ... If you disagree with me, then your true goal is not "equality." It is to force society to consider homosexual partners married.

[The New California Republic]

CD's OOC views ... state that LGBT persons ... should not be discriminated against

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=248547&p=15229209&hilit=marriage+equality#p15229209

Civil marriage is substantially related to the promotion of procreation.
Procreation is necessary for the survival of any society ... Recognizing gay and lesbian couples does not advance the governmental objective of ensuring the stability of population size.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=236724&p=13990869&hilit=marriage+equality#p13990869

Nobody is denied equal opportunity by a male-female definition of civil marriage. Every individual is equally allowed to marry, and every individual has open to him half of the adult population.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=224918&p=12956876&hilit=marriage+equality#p12956876

Under the guise of equality and contrary to easily recognizable differences between the sexes, we tear down values meant to maintain a well-ordered society so that hedonism can be smuggled in.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=188381&p=9973919&hilit=marriage+equality#p9973919

One can make the claim that "rights" for gays are equal right now ... Every individual, heterosexual or homosexual, can enter into a civil marriage with one individual of the opposite sex.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=188268&p=9942472&hilit=marriage+equality#p9942472

Why use the word "marriage"? Why not make the civil solidarity pact the only kind of union recognized by the state? ... If you disagree with me, then your true goal is not "equality." It is to force society to consider homosexual partners married.

All reasons CD should never be commended, unless there is a significant backpedaling on their part, but I wouldn't hold my breath.