[DEFEATED] Intersystem Space Stations Programme

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

Personally, I like "The Intersystem Space Stations Programme".

However, that is just my opinion.

Okay! I am going to give it the go-ahead! Thanks everyone!

Time to hold my breath, and pray to God.

EDIT: I am going with Separatist Peoples' title for it "Programme for the Intersystem Space Station", but pluralizing it to "Intersystem Space Stations Programme" He would know!

[Grand Termina]

Crossing my fingers for you. I sent out approval request telegrams if it makes you feel anymore safe.

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

This may have been submitted, but this is still in a drafting phase. I want to see how it does first, and get some feedback.

If it reaches quorum, I celebrate, if it doesn't, I rework it to suit the audience better.

[Kenmoria]

This may have been submitted, but this is still in a drafting phase. I want to see how it does first, and get some feedback.

If it reaches quorum, I celebrate, if it doesn't, I rework it to suit the audience better.

(OOC: You should then change the tag from [DRAFT] to [SUBMITTED] to show that this has been submitted.)

[Araraukar]

but we also have to consider that the WA, and NS on the whole is game.

OOC: Not in the in-character reactions. In fact, doing that in the proposal text would make it a Metagaming violation.

Further Establishes that member nations will all have access to a station within a fathomable and reachable distance of their home world with the number of stations in accordance with such,

Still OOC: This would, for modern tech nations, mean the orbit of their own planet. However, for most WA nations you're basically requiring that non-WA nations give them access to the station, whether or not they've contributed anything to the creation and maintenance of the station.

I mean, let's take Real Life:

As of 2018, 72 different government space agencies are in existence; 14 of those have launch capability. Six government space agencies — the China National Space Administration (CNSA), the European Space Agency (ESA), the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO), the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), and the Russian Federal Space Agency (RFSA or Roscosmos)—have full launch capabilities; these include the ability to launch and recover multiple satellites, deploy cryogenic rocket engines and operate extraterrestrial probes. (Source.)

And:

Membership within the United Nations system divides the 206 listed states into three categories: 193 member states,[1] 2 observer states, and 11 other states. The sovereignty dispute column indicates states whose sovereignty is undisputed (191 states) and states whose sovereignty is disputed (15 states, out of which there are 5 member states, 1 observer state and 9 other states). (Source.)

If going by the undisputed sovereign states number, that still leaves us with 119 RL nations without space programs, not to mention launch capabilities. If all the 191 nations were in the WA, you'd be mandating that 37.7% of the nations should let all their hard work being exploited by the 62.3%, who have done nothing to contribute to it. Or, to make it more applicable, how about the 37.7% nations not being in the WA, while the 62.3% were.

Do you think RL nations would agree to that happening? And that's with all the nations having pretty much the same tech level.

Oh sweet Jesus I got scared when I saw your name here.

OOC: What, Wrapper is active outside of the GA forum? (He was a GA veteran way before he was a mod. )

The station would most likely be created in-between the two. It is at maximum 1 light year away in this original draft, so it would probably be .45 LY away from both of you.

How do we go 0.45 ly to your station?

OOC: This was still not resolved.

To make understanding the problem easier with an RL example:

The furthest man-made object from Earth is the Voyager 1 space probe. It's currently about 142.31 astronomical units (AU) from Earth. (Astronomical unit being Earth's distance from the Sun.)

There are 63241.1 AU in a light year.

0.45 LY would be 28458.5 AU, which is 200 times further than Voyager 1 has traveled.

Its current distance has taken Voyager 1 41 years, 3 months and 16 days, at the time I'm writing this (Source.), and given that now that it's outside the heliosphere, interstellar dust and gas will start slowing it down (up until leaving that bubble it's been enjoying "having the wind at its back"). But even if it could keep it current speed, it would take it over 8200 years to reach 0.45 LY.

And 8200 years ago the RL people were still mostly in stone age.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Its current distance has taken Voyager 1 41 years, 3 months and 16 days, at the time I'm writing this (Source.), and given that now that it's outside the heliosphere, interstellar dust and gas will start slowing it down (up until leaving that bubble it's been enjoying "having the wind at its back"). But even if it could keep it current speed, it would take it over 8200 years to reach 0.45 LY.

Still just gravitation. Leaving a gravitational well eats up kinetic energy due because gravitational wells have negative potential.

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

but we also have to consider that the WA, and NS on the whole is game.

OOC: Not in the in-character reactions. In fact, doing that in the proposal text would make it a Metagaming violation.

Further Establishes that member nations will all have access to a station within a fathomable and reachable distance of their home world with the number of stations in accordance with such,

Still OOC: This would, for modern tech nations, mean the orbit of their own planet. However, for most WA nations you're basically requiring that non-WA nations give them access to the station, whether or not they've contributed anything to the creation and maintenance of the station.

I mean, let's take Real Life:

As of 2018, 72 different government space agencies are in existence; 14 of those have launch capability. Six government space agencies — the China National Space Administration (CNSA), the European Space Agency (ESA), the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO), the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), and the Russian Federal Space Agency (RFSA or Roscosmos)—have full launch capabilities; these include the ability to launch and recover multiple satellites, deploy cryogenic rocket engines and operate extraterrestrial probes. (Source.)

And:

Membership within the United Nations system divides the 206 listed states into three categories: 193 member states,[1] 2 observer states, and 11 other states. The sovereignty dispute column indicates states whose sovereignty is undisputed (191 states) and states whose sovereignty is disputed (15 states, out of which there are 5 member states, 1 observer state and 9 other states). (Source.)

If going by the undisputed sovereign states number, that still leaves us with 119 RL nations without space programs, not to mention launch capabilities. If all the 191 nations were in the WA, you'd be mandating that 37.7% of the nations should let all their hard work being exploited by the 62.3%, who have done nothing to contribute to it. Or, to make it more applicable, how about the 37.7% nations not being in the WA, while the 62.3% were.

Do you think RL nations would agree to that happening? And that's with all the nations having pretty much the same tech level.

Oh sweet Jesus I got scared when I saw your name here.

OOC: What, Wrapper is active outside of the GA forum? (He was a GA veteran way before he was a mod. )

How do we go 0.45 ly to your station?

OOC: This was still not resolved.

To make understanding the problem easier with an RL example:

The furthest man-made object from Earth is the Voyager 1 space probe. It's currently about 142.31 astronomical units (AU) from Earth. (Astronomical unit being Earth's distance from the Sun.)

There are 63241.1 AU in a light year.

0.45 LY would be 28458.5 AU, which is 200 times further than Voyager 1 has traveled.

Its current distance has taken Voyager 1 41 years, 3 months and 16 days, at the time I'm writing this (Source.), and given that now that it's outside the heliosphere, interstellar dust and gas will start slowing it down (up until leaving that bubble it's been enjoying "having the wind at its back"). But even if it could keep it current speed, it would take it over 8200 years to reach 0.45 LY.

And 8200 years ago the RL people were still mostly in stone age.

Okay, so when resubmitting I changed it to say "all have access to a station within a fathomable and reachable distance of their home world" rather than "one to five lightyears" in the bolded part to cater to each individual technology level.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"Would you please clarify that nations who desire access to the station must therefore provide funding or materials in proportion to the degree of their use? SL will not be footing the bill for smaller countries to free-ride on it, nor will we stiff the space construction syndicates who will be assembling a large portion of the thing in our particular neck of the cosmic woods. Banker and commie countries are welcome by law, but they gotta pay their way like everyone else."

[Imperium Anglorum]

It's the gravitational potential well which is why Voyager is slowing down. Just integrate GMm/r^2 to see that intuitively. However that is, assuming constant velocity, let's put 8.2 thousand years ago into context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event had just happened.

Humans, if we believe the current narrative about the Younger Dryas period leading to sedentarism (see generally James Scott, Against the Grain), were just a few centuries into settling down to form small communities and farming villages. The Sumerians, who emerged around 4500 BC, were 1.7 thousand years into the future. We humans could eliminate modern civilisation with a mass nuclear exchange and completely rebuild that civilisation to where we are today in 8200 years.

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

It's the gravitational potential well which is why Voyager is slowing down. Just integrate GMm/r^2 to see that intuitively. However that is, assuming constant velocity, let's put 8.2 thousand years ago into context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event had just happened.

Humans, if we believe the current narrative about the Younger Dryas period leading to sedentarism (see generally James Scott, Against the Grain), were just a few centuries into settling down to form small communities and farming villages. The Sumerians, who emerged around 4500 BC, were 1.7 thousand years into the future. We humans could eliminate modern civilisation with a mass nuclear exchange and completely rebuild that civilisation to where we are today in 8200 years.

This may be just a little of topic now! But, you know, it is kind of awing that we have reached a point where it would only take an blip in the universal timespan for us to rebuild so far.

"Would you please clarify that nations who desire access to the station must therefore provide funding or materials in proportion to the degree of their use? SL will not be footing the bill for smaller countries to free-ride on it, nor will we stiff the space construction syndicates who will be assembling a large portion of the thing in our particular neck of the cosmic woods. Banker and commie countries are welcome by law, but they gotta pay their way like everyone else."

Let me get back to you on that!

[Groot]

Groot walks into the voting chamber, prepared to vote in favor of the "Programme for the Intersystem Space Station" — just for laughs, of course, because he always wondered what it would be like to have a P.I.S.S. in space — but notices that the title of the program has been revised. “I am Groot,” Groot sighs, as he votes against the measure.

[North Soviet EastAsia]

For.

[Secret State Police]

I like that nations are forced to fund the project, and wholeheartedly support this.

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

I like that nations are forced to fund the project, and wholeheartedly support this.

I am planning to change that if it is (or when it is) defeated, and I resubmit.

[Osterreich Monarchie]

We will support this and hope that it passes. An international space station/programe would be a great succes for the WA.

[Tinhampton]

A statement from the Honourable Saffron Naomi Howard AM, Mayor of the Self-Administrative City of Tinhampton:

It is pleasing to hear of the submitting delegation's intention to redraft this proposal, should the one currently at vote fail. In the event that the redrafted proposal is also defeated, however, I shall have no option but to authorise a full scale invasion of Gladom Newion. The Intersystem Space Stations, when they are launched, will represent the pinnacle of international scientific achievement, and Tinhampton is willing to do everything in its power to help make that dream a reality, including by the acquisition of natural resources that could prove beneficial in their construction.

Under the Government Act 1930, this is an official statement by the Hon. Saffron Howard AM, Mayor of Tinhampton. Attempted impersonation can result in up to a two-year prison sentence.

[Kenmoria]

“This legislative measure has support, albeit slightly reluctantly, of the Kenmorian WA Mission. It promises to be a piece of law that will have a positive impact on global co-operation through the shared means of interspace travel. Although it is currently failing at vote, we hope that it can pass and serve as a landmark resolution encouraging the WA passing laws on matters of space.”

[Waffia]

Waffia has voted against this resolution.

While we most certainly believe the building of international space stations is something to strive for, we believe there are important administrative flaws with this resolution. Most importantly, the resolution would force all member nations to invest money into these space stations, even if they have no interest in using these stations; even if they do not have a national space programme to begin with.

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

While we most certainly believe the building of international space stations is something to strive for, we believe there are important administrative flaws with this resolution. Most importantly, the resolution would force all member nations to invest money into these space stations, even if they have no interest in using these stations; even if they do not have a national space programme to begin with.

Yeah, I recognized that only after it got to vote. If it fails then I will redraft it to fix that glaring error

[Dirty Americans]

I have one serious question to all of this ... Why?

Seriously, I wish more people would ask that question before they even start writing a proposal. "Because it is sort of in the real world" should not count. We do a lot of stupid things in the real world and that's no reason to do it here, especially for a multiverse of such scale and divergent technology levels.

So with that in mind, and generally trying to be as simplistic as possible why don't we consider space for space faring nations the same as "international waters" for sea faring nations. Would you want to create independent off shore international ports or would you rather consider access rights for all WA members to use the ports of other existing members. Instead of having the WA construct a plethora of space stations, make it the requirement of WA members to have their space stations accessible in the same manner as routine ocean going vessels are allowed access to WA member nations ports.

Seriously, let's keep the WA to regulation and less to building and maintaining infrastructure.

[Andromeda Islands]

(OCC In the real world there is no guarantee that space programs are going to be entirely peaceful, e.g. Trump's "Space Force", so although I have been a big supporter of space exploration, I am reticent to vote for a resolution that doesn't guarantee that space travel will not be used for war)

[United Republic Empire]

Good Work on the proposal. It is nice to see minds being put to good use. I'm glad to see your proposal garnishing more support daily. Hope it passes. Take care.

[Vermare]

After reviewing and examining the contents of this resolution, the Commonwealth of Vermare has decided to vote against this resolution.

We have determined that this resolution would go against the Commonwealth's national objective, which is to maximise economic efficiency and national prosperity. This resolution would force us to contribute funds to a project which would have few clear and tangible benefits to our nation. We believe these funds can be put to better use elsewhere, with even greater direct benefits to our nation. As a small nation, we feel the need to further develop ourselves before delving further into international cooperation, especially a large international project such as the one proposed by this resolution.

[England Wales and Northern Ireland]

Don't force me to fund your over-bloated bureaucratic Space Hobbies you communist money grubbing Yellow Bellies!

[United Massachusetts]

Jocospor moved his vote to against here. It's likely to fail.