[PASSED] Command Responsibility

[The New Nordic Union]

I have to fire my commanders? This is outrageous!

'If your commanders regularly break inter-national law, it probably is in the best interest of your nation to dismiss them in any case.'

[Falcania]

I have to fire my commanders? This is outrageous!

If they've been committing crimes, you should probably prosecute them.

[Samaster]

I have to fire my commanders? This is outrageous!

'If your commanders regularly break inter-national law, it probably is in the best interest of your nation to dismiss them in any case.'

In war there sometimes is no right or wrong, there is successful and ineffective.

[The New Nordic Union]

'If your commanders regularly break inter-national law, it probably is in the best interest of your nation to dismiss them in any case.'

In war there sometimes is no right or wrong, there is successful and ineffective.

'"Might makes right" or "the ends justify the means"? I must remind the representative that this definitely is not the case under World Assembly legislation.'

[Separatist Peoples]

'If your commanders regularly break inter-national law, it probably is in the best interest of your nation to dismiss them in any case.'

In war there sometimes is no right or wrong, there is successful and ineffective.

"That is exactly the kind of barbarity I'm hoping to curb. Nations are perfectly capable of preserving combat effectiveness without resorting to war crimes. Nations that cannot have ineffective leadership."

[Akirya]

While we are against using force which can be deemed as "astrocity" , Akirya sees this as de-facto handling power of our troops to the General Assembly, since it puts their orders above ours.

Firmly against it.

[Separatist Peoples]

While we are against using force which can be deemed as "astrocity" , Akirya sees this as de-facto handling power of our troops to the General Assembly, since it puts their orders above ours.

Firmly against it.

"Nothing in this proposal gives the GA command authority over your troops."

[Samaster]

While we are against using force which can be deemed as "astrocity" , Akirya sees this as de-facto handling power of our troops to the General Assembly, since it puts their orders above ours.

Firmly against it.

"Nothing in this proposal gives the GA command authority over your troops."

It does however take away the command over our troops.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Nothing in this proposal gives the GA command authority over your troops."

It does however take away the command over our troops.

"Nope. It requires that you punish those that violate the law. Oh, no! What ever will you do if you cannot have war criminals in charge of your military! Its not like every major military entity has managed to run their military without resorting to war crimes!"

[Newark Aristocracy]

This is now at vote!

[Nuclear Wastelands]

"Against. It'd be near impossible to enforce these rules in the wastes, and it'd be a waste of caps that could be used on humanitarian issues for us."

[True Spain]

"Our main concerns against this resolution have already been explained in this honored chamber. War crimes are deplorable and unacceptable in any civilized nation, so we will be voting in favor at once."

[Samaster]

It does however take away the command over our troops.

"Nope. It requires that you punish those that violate the law. Oh, no! What ever will you do if you cannot have war criminals in charge of your military! Its not like every major military entity has managed to run their military without resorting to war crimes!"

Not comply is what i will do. Almost no military entity that engaged in war is without warcrimes. Legalising insubordination is even more stupid, but at least insubordination can be seen as desertation which in return is punishable.

[Falcania]

'If your commanders regularly break inter-national law, it probably is in the best interest of your nation to dismiss them in any case.'

In war there sometimes is no right or wrong, there is successful and ineffective.

On the contrary. In war, possibly more than in any facet of life, it is imperative to understand right and wrong. How can you hope to have an effective force in conflict if you do not eliminate the cruel within your ranks?

[Kenmoria]

"Nope. It requires that you punish those that violate the law. Oh, no! What ever will you do if you cannot have war criminals in charge of your military! Its not like every major military entity has managed to run their military without resorting to war crimes!"

Not comply is what i will do. Almost no military entity that engaged in war is without warcrimes. Legalising insubordination is even more stupid, but at least insubordination can be seen as desertation which in return is punishable.

(OOC: Be aware of the Administrative Compliance Act if you do choose noncompliance, and make sure to take into consideration its effects.)

[Separatist Peoples]

"Nope. It requires that you punish those that violate the law. Oh, no! What ever will you do if you cannot have war criminals in charge of your military! Its not like every major military entity has managed to run their military without resorting to war crimes!"

Not comply is what i will do. Almost no military entity that engaged in war is without warcrimes. Legalising insubordination is even more stupid, but at least insubordination can be seen as desertation which in return is punishable.

Ooc: noncompliance is Godmodding and gets you ignored here.

Ic: "Noncompliance will subject you to penalties per the Administrative Compliance Act, which, if you refuse to pay or to alter your policies, are backed up by WA-wide sanctions. If you refuse to comply, I imagine you will end up hobbled by the requisite effects.

"Funny, the C.D.S.P.'s military is larger and more effective than the Samastanian military. Despite that, our commanders who do commit war crimes are immediately punished. Including lost of their privilage to command. Despite this, our military remains extremely effective. This is another facile argument."

Ooc: and, as an aside, modern militaries do this and manage to operate without serious trouble. Your argument is entirely, demonstrably false, and borders on the inane.

[Samaster]

In war there sometimes is no right or wrong, there is successful and ineffective.

On the contrary. In war, possibly more than in any facet of life, it is imperative to understand right and wrong. How can you hope to have an effective force in conflict if you do not eliminate the cruel within your ranks?

How can you hope to have an effective force, if you are wasting your time by working with noncompliant soldiers and deserters? Our forces are efficient.

Samaster's defence force is a highly effective combination of private military contractors, compulsory participation in a stand-by force and special forces that are self-sufficient cells. They are given a general task, then have complete freedom of execution on the task. Only the the stand-by force is even under direct command. It's just not possible to punish individual cells.

Not comply is what i will do. Almost no military entity that engaged in war is without warcrimes. Legalising insubordination is even more stupid, but at least insubordination can be seen as desertation which in return is punishable.

Ooc: noncompliance is Godmodding and gets you ignored here.

Ic: "Noncompliance will subject you to penalties per the Administrative Compliance Act, which, if you refuse to pay or to alter your policies, are backed up by WA-wide sanctions. If you refuse to comply, I imagine you will end up hobbled by the requisite effects.

"Funny, the C.D.S.P.'s military is larger and more effective than the Samastanian military. Despite that, our commanders who do commit war crimes are immediately punished. Including lost of their privilage to command. Despite this, our military remains extremely effective. This is another facile argument."

Ooc: and, as an aside, modern militaries do this and manage to operate without serious trouble. Your argument is entirely, demonstrably false, and borders on the inane.

Ooc: this threat was in character, if this bothers you, i might stop roleplaying here.

Ic: your nation is larger, thus the military spending is. More effective per capita? I highly doubt that.

Ooc: you are simply wrong about this. every modern military at war is commititng war crimes. Israel is attacking civilians, china too, the us is torturing people. none of the commanders are punished.

Ooc: Kenmoria, thanks. I knew the act, but decided to roleplay in that direction anyways. I won't necessarily do it. Threatening to do it seemed to be the correct action for my nation though.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ooc: noncompliance is Godmodding and gets you ignored here.

Ic: "Noncompliance will subject you to penalties per the Administrative Compliance Act, which, if you refuse to pay or to alter your policies, are backed up by WA-wide sanctions. If you refuse to comply, I imagine you will end up hobbled by the requisite effects.

"Funny, the C.D.S.P.'s military is larger and more effective than the Samastanian military. Despite that, our commanders who do commit war crimes are immediately punished. Including lost of their privilage to command. Despite this, our military remains extremely effective. This is another facile argument."

Ooc: and, as an aside, modern militaries do this and manage to operate without serious trouble. Your argument is entirely, demonstrably false, and borders on the inane.

Ooc: this threat was in character, if this bothers you, i might stop roleplaying here.

Ic: your nation is larger, thus the military spending is. More effective per capita? I highly doubt that.

Ooc: you are simply wrong about this. every modern military at war is commititng war crimes. Israel is attacking civilians, china too, the us is torturing people. none of the commanders are punished.

Ooc: Kenmoria, thanks. I knew the act, but decided to roleplay in that direction anyways. I won't necessarily do it. Threatening to do it seemed to be the correct action for my nation though.

Ooc: it's your call. I'm just letting you know that noncompliance is godmodding and we ignore godmodding.

Modern militaries, like the US, do charge their commanders with war crimes and remove them from command when they are found guilty. This is indisputable. That some nations elect not to obey international law does not mean that militaries can, and broadly do, operate effectively despite removing commanders who break the law.

Ic: "You're welcome to test our effectiveness, ambassador. It would be a short contest, though. If this act passes, you will be expected to comply. If you refuse, well, I look forward to seeing the crippling debt your nation racks up in fines. Since this is no longer available to edit, I encourage you to vote against. Even if I could edit a resolution at vote, I certainly wouldn't do it for such undeveloped arguments."

[Vrama]

No member state may penalize subordinates who refuse, in good faith, to obey an order of uncertain legality under World Assembly law regulating conduct during armed conflict, even if the order is legal in hindsight. Member states will take all prudent steps to treat evidence or investigations of a subordinate's lawful refusal under this Article as privileged information, and may not include it in a subordinate's service record.

Unacceptable. The divine word of the king is law. If the military fails to follow His Majesty's orders, all hell breaks loose. There will be order. Any member of the armed forces who fails to follow orders shall be subject to execution pursuant to Sec. 107 of our Code of Conduct.

[Separatist Peoples]

No member state may penalize subordinates who refuse, in good faith, to obey an order of uncertain legality under World Assembly law regulating conduct during armed conflict, even if the order is legal in hindsight. Member states will take all prudent steps to treat evidence or investigations of a subordinate's lawful refusal under this Article as privileged information, and may not include it in a subordinate's service record.

Unacceptable. The divine word of the king is law. If the military fails to follow His Majesty's orders, all hell breaks loose. There will be order. Any member who fails to follow orders shall be subject to execution pursuant to Sec. 107 of our Code of Conduct.

"Forcing soldiers to commit war crimes in violation of the law places them in the unenviable position of choosing whether to break domestic law or international law. This is manifestly unfair to the soldier and an unreasonable tool for the unscrupulous commander. Your objection is noted and ignored. I could not give a bent nickel about your king's allegedly divine word."

[Araraukar]

OOC: I'll refrain from voting, because I'm going to be dropping out of WA to avoid the stat effects when this passes - I'll take up WA status again, nor does that mean noncompliance; I just don't like the category stat effect.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: I'll refrain from voting, because I'm going to be dropping out of WA to avoid the stat effects when this passes - I'll take up WA status again, nor does that mean noncompliance; I just don't like the category stat effect.

Ooc: it's a time-honored tradition. No hard feelings!

[Sierra Lyricalia]

OOC: "People aren't being prosecuted enough for their war crimes" does not imply "we should not punish anybody for war crimes." It also does not indicate "armies that commit war crimes are more effective." On the contrary, the atrocities committed by Al Qaeda In Iraq were exactly what drove the population to (virtually overnight) switch sides and cooperate with American troops to put an end to them, leading to a situation stable enough that the U.S. (falsely) felt safe withdrawing.

This is a discussion for General, however.

IC: "Ambassadors, if your forces are incapable of upholding the most basic human rights in or post-combat, your regimes are undoubtedly in grave danger. Perhaps you should bugger off and let the big kids handle strategy while you go ensure your leaders aren't moving around too much for the allied forces of your enemies or the mobs of your own civilians to find them and put them before a firing squad. Run along, now!"

[Arasi Luvasa]

Unacceptable. The divine word of the king is law. If the military fails to follow His Majesty's orders, all hell breaks loose. There will be order. Any member who fails to follow orders shall be subject to execution pursuant to Sec. 107 of our Code of Conduct.

"Forcing soldiers to commit war crimes in violation of the law places them in the unenviable position of choosing whether to break domestic law or international law. This is manifestly unfair to the soldier and an unreasonable tool for the unscrupulous commander. Your objection is noted and ignored. I could not give a bent nickel about your king's allegedly divine word."

"Not to mention current regulation against execution."

[Groot]

Groot reads through the proposal carefully. When finished, he nods. “I am Groot,” he says to Ambassador Bell, as he casts his vote in favor.