[PASSED] Ban on Conversion Therapy

[Raymere]

Raymere supports the ban on conversion therapy.

[Sciongrad]

Looking forward to voting for this. Good luck!

[United Massachusetts]

Looking forward to voting for this. Good luck!

[Christian Democrats]

We still do not understand the rationale for withholding psychiatric care -- the standard treatment -- from gender dysphoric youth.

[Efisga]

Full support

[Wallenburg]

We still do not understand the rationale for withholding psychiatric care -- the standard treatment -- from gender dysphoric youth.

IC: "The Wallenburgian delegation shares these concerns. To withhold necessary medical care from suffering children is not only backwards, but barbaric."

OOC: Full support, as far as this player goes, although my votes are always IC.

[United Massachusetts]

We still do not understand the rationale for withholding psychiatric care -- the standard treatment -- from gender dysphoric youth.

The way to eliminate gender dysphoria is to permit individuals to freely make a choice regarding whether or not to transition. We're keeping it in.

And, this will be submitted this evening, barring objections.

[The American Fascist Legion]

We hereby reject this immoral proposal on the basis of public health, both mental and physical.

In 2014, gay and bisexual men made up an estimated 2% of the U.S. population, but accounted for 70% of new HIV infections.

Gay and bisexual men aged 13 to 24 accounted for 92% of new HIV diagnoses among all men in their age group and 27% of new diagnoses among all gay and bisexual men.

At the end of 2014, an estimated 615,400 gay and bisexual men were living with HIV. Of those, 17.3% were unaware of their infection.

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/

It would be disastrous to enact such legislation encouraging the the tolerance of such diseases caused by homosexuality.

[United Massachusetts]

We hereby reject this immoral proposal on the basis of public health, both mental and physical.

In 2014, gay and bisexual men made up an estimated 2% of the U.S. population, but accounted for 70% of new HIV infections.

Gay and bisexual men aged 13 to 24 accounted for 92% of new HIV diagnoses among all men in their age group and 27% of new diagnoses among all gay and bisexual men.

At the end of 2014, an estimated 615,400 gay and bisexual men were living with HIV. Of those, 17.3% were unaware of their infection.

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/

It would be disastrous to enact such legislation encouraging the the tolerance of such diseases caused by homosexuality.

It's a shame that I don't have the support of the American Fascist Legion.

[Fauxia]

We hereby reject this immoral proposal on the basis of public health, both mental and physical.

In 2014, gay and bisexual men made up an estimated 2% of the U.S. population, but accounted for 70% of new HIV infections.

Gay and bisexual men aged 13 to 24 accounted for 92% of new HIV diagnoses among all men in their age group and 27% of new diagnoses among all gay and bisexual men.

At the end of 2014, an estimated 615,400 gay and bisexual men were living with HIV. Of those, 17.3% were unaware of their infection.

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/

It would be disastrous to enact such legislation encouraging the the tolerance of such diseases caused by homosexuality.

It's a shame that I don't have the support of the American Fascist Legion.

Truly your proposal will have no chance now. Best to abandon it.

[Christian Democrats]

We still do not understand the rationale for withholding psychiatric care -- the standard treatment -- from gender dysphoric youth.

The way to eliminate gender dysphoria is to permit individuals to freely make a choice regarding whether or not to transition.

This proposal would deny minors any choice. Resolution 91 prohibits the performance of gender reassignments on minors, and this proposal would prohibit psychiatric care. Without such care, minors will be left to fend for themselves, to fight mental illness alone.

[United Massachusetts]

The way to eliminate gender dysphoria is to permit individuals to freely make a choice regarding whether or not to transition.

This proposal would deny minors any choice. Resolution 91 prohibits the performance of gender reassignments on minors, and this proposal would prohibit psychiatric care. Without such care, minors will be left to fend for themselves, to fight mental illness alone.

I dissent on the following terms:

1. Gender dysphoria refers to the discomfort dervied from the feeling of disconnect between gender identity and physical sex. It is entirely within the limits of this resolution to engage in care with the purpose of easing said discomfort, so long as the intent is not to change gender identity.
2. Gender dysphoria can be eased without reassignment surgery. I'm not seeing its relevance here.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The Havenic government is against this resolution. The education and medical treatment of children is the rightful domaine of the parents of the child, not of thhe government. In addition, the Havenic government is concerned about the possible affect of this resolution on vulnerable young people who wish to undergo a gender transition.

[United Massachusetts]

OOC: Obviously this is a very personal issue for me (I'm transgender, male pronouns please, for those who didn't know), but I think people are confusing "psychotherapy" with "conversion therapy". Psychotherapy is often recommended - at least over here, based on myself and about a dozen or so trans people I have talked with - for reasons not to do with the gender identity, but more commonly the anxiety and depression that go with residing in the wrong body and/or being viewed by the society as being the wrong (wrong in the sense of "not what I feel I am") gender. It is to help you feel comfortable with your self, while the way society sees you is changing.

Also, it is part of the whole evaluation process. I could, right now, without any hormone therapies or surgeries walk into the registry office and change my legal identity (name, official sex, getting all the official paperwork and driver's licence and all that changed to mark me as a man with a man's name and social security number) into male one. I actually have the papers, the diagnose, the official proof of it that it's not just in my head. They suggested further psychotherapy to deal with the anxiety issues, but I looked into it and realized the type (because, surprise surprise, there's no just one single kind of psychotherapy that exists) they were suggesting can be done basically with the support of friends and family and learning the right kind of thinking. With this I have managed to reduce my general anxiety levels (I still get easily stressed, but that's unrelated to any gender issues) by incredible amounts.

Does that mean that because I have not started hormone therapy yet or done something surgical to my body that I was not transgender? I have started calling myself Joel, asked that my friends and family call me Joel (they apologize getting the name wrong a lot, but, well, I still tend to answer the phone with my currently still legal name, so them just making the effort counts for a lot!). I've shifted to using male pronouns online - in RL that doesn't matter as Finnish doesn't have gendered pronouns - and I have started to introduce myself as Joel even in RL, even in situations where there is a real possibility that it will subject me to ridicule. None of this would have been possible before the evaluation process and the therapy that was inherently a part of it.

Auralia, if you were put through a conversion therapy to turn you into a woman who's into men, do you honestly think that could be done? If not, why do you think the "opposite" would work on other people?

Tinfect, have courage, girl, things will get better. I hope they will get better to all transgender persons in USA and that someone will eventually force a law through there, too, that makes transitioning a part of the basic medical care, so that everyone can afford it and the therapy that goes with it.

Everyone else, regardless of tech or species, it is not and never will be okay to force someone to try and change a large part of their identity, whether it's gender or sexual orientation. Even if it did work (and science suggests it does not), forcing an identity change of any kind is not okay. Whether that forcing is done with violence, threatened violence, physical, sexual, emotional intimidation, threatening with legal consequences (like getting disowned or fired)... it is not okay.

tl;dr: Golden rule, people, "don't do to others what you don't want to have done to you".

And let's be honest, if conversion therapy really was a thing that works, it should be used to turn everyone female (to reduce aggression) and gay (to stop population growth). There's actually a book that uses that as part of the plot. I suggest reading it to find out how well it works with future tech "conversion therapy"...

Psychotherapy can occur without an attempt to change the gender identity of an individual. Quoting so people can see this from Arak

[Mariarty]

We fully suport this initiative, and we hope this to become something in the future. Congratulations from our country to the writers of this proposal.

[Zone 71]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing strictly prohibiting therapy and counseling for individuals afflicted with gender dysphoria. The proposed legislation only prohibits cohesive therapy attempting "to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of an individual," and by no by no means extends to banning the counseling of those coping with the symptoms of dysphoria such as isolation, anxiety, or depression.
These hyperbolic outcries of how this proposal would outright ban any mental help for those afflicted with gender dysphoria are completely unfounded, and I strongly encourage that the people saying these things revisit the proposed text again to clear up this misunderstanding.

OOC: Araraukar made great points. I strongly recommend everyone confused with this issue visit Araraukar's post on psychotherapy and gender dysphoria. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=443899&p=34202042#p34202042

[Christian Democrats]

This proposal would deny minors any choice. Resolution 91 prohibits the performance of gender reassignments on minors, and this proposal would prohibit psychiatric care. Without such care, minors will be left to fend for themselves, to fight mental illness alone.

I dissent on the following terms:

1. Gender dysphoria refers to the discomfort dervied from the feeling of disconnect between gender identity and physical sex. It is entirely within the limits of this resolution to engage in care with the purpose of easing said discomfort, so long as the intent is not to change gender identity.
2. Gender dysphoria can be eased without reassignment surgery. I'm not seeing its relevance here.

Under threat of imprisonment, child psychiatrists, I doubt, would be willing to provide any extensive mental healthcare to gender dysphoric youth. For example, imagine that a child tells his psychiatrist that he's gender dysphoric. He says, in specific, that he feels uncomfortable as a boy. If the psychiatrist recommends that he experiment with being a girl, the state could imprison him for trying to change the boy's gender identity from queer to female. Likewise, if the psychiatrist recommends behavioral therapy to help the boy adjust to the male norms of his culture, the state could imprison him for trying to change the boy's gender identity. Whatever the psychiatrist recommends, he puts himself at risk. This proposal will, therefore, deter psychiatric care for troubled children who express discomfort with their genders.

[United Massachusetts]

I dissent on the following terms:

1. Gender dysphoria refers to the discomfort dervied from the feeling of disconnect between gender identity and physical sex. It is entirely within the limits of this resolution to engage in care with the purpose of easing said discomfort, so long as the intent is not to change gender identity.
2. Gender dysphoria can be eased without reassignment surgery. I'm not seeing its relevance here.

Under threat of imprisonment, child psychiatrists, I doubt, would be willing to provide any extensive mental healthcare to gender dysphoric youth. For example, imagine that a child tells his psychiatrist that he's gender dysphoric. He says, in specific, that he feels uncomfortable as a boy. If the psychiatrist recommends that he experiment with being a girl, the state could imprison him for trying to change the boy's gender identity from queer to female. Likewise, if the psychiatrist recommends behavioral therapy to help the boy adjust to the male norms of his culture, the state could imprison him for trying to change the boy's gender identity. Whatever the psychiatrist recommends, he puts himself at risk. This proposal will, therefore, deter psychiatric care for troubled children who express discomfort with their genders.

The primary purpose of legitimate psychotherapy is to ease discomfort regarding the incongruence between expressed gender identity and sex. As multiple transgender people within this thread have stated, its purpose is not to change the gender identity of the patient. The role of psychiatrists in this situation is to try to ease discomfort without converting gender identity one way or the other.

Also, advice isn't psychological intervention.

[Christian Democrats]

Under threat of imprisonment, child psychiatrists, I doubt, would be willing to provide any extensive mental healthcare to gender dysphoric youth. For example, imagine that a child tells his psychiatrist that he's gender dysphoric. He says, in specific, that he feels uncomfortable as a boy. If the psychiatrist recommends that he experiment with being a girl, the state could imprison him for trying to change the boy's gender identity from queer to female. Likewise, if the psychiatrist recommends behavioral therapy to help the boy adjust to the male norms of his culture, the state could imprison him for trying to change the boy's gender identity. Whatever the psychiatrist recommends, he puts himself at risk. This proposal will, therefore, deter psychiatric care for troubled children who express discomfort with their genders.

The primary purpose of legitimate psychotherapy is to ease discomfort regarding the incongruence between expressed gender identity and sex. As multiple transgender people within this thread have stated, its purpose is not to change the gender identity of the patient. The role of psychiatrists in this situation is to try to ease discomfort without converting gender identity one way or the other.

Also, advice isn't psychological intervention.

Given that the majority of gender dysphoric youth reidentify with their biological sex by adulthood, it is not at all absurd to permit member states to permit child psychiatrists, according to their own national medical ethics laws and guidelines, to attempt to resolve "incongruence[s] between expressed gender identity and sex" by helping their patients adjust to their biological sex.

Without evidence, this proposal would make it a crime to help a dysphoric boy adjust to his boyhood or a dysphoric girl adjust to her girlhood. The only justification that has been offered is that child psychiatric intervention somehow infringes on some amorphous right of children to "choose" their own "identities." The best that society can do for a distressed child is, you say, to "let him be."

[Zone 71]

The primary purpose of legitimate psychotherapy is to ease discomfort regarding the incongruence between expressed gender identity and sex. As multiple transgender people within this thread have stated, its purpose is not to change the gender identity of the patient. The role of psychiatrists in this situation is to try to ease discomfort without converting gender identity one way or the other.

Also, advice isn't psychological intervention.

Given that the majority of gender dysphoric youth reidentify with their biological sex by adulthood, it is not at all absurd to permit member states to permit child psychiatrists, according to their own national medical ethics laws and guidelines, to attempt to resolve "incongruence[s] between expressed gender identity and sex" by helping their patients adjust to their biological sex.

Without evidence, this proposal would make it a crime to help a dysphoric boy adjust to his boyhood or a dysphoric girl adjust to her girlhood. The only justification that has been offered is that child psychiatric intervention somehow infringes on some amorphous right of children to "choose" their own "identities." The best that society can do for a distressed child is, you say, to "let him be."

Excuse my brashness, but I find this to be a grossly improper and derived interpretation of the proposal text. Nowhere in the document is it even suggested that the most effective and common forms of therapy for gender dysmorphic youth, including but not limited to talk therapy and the likes, are discouraged or prohibited by its mandates. It only forbids people including therapists and doctors from coercing gender dysphoric individuals to change their gender. Additionally, gender dysphoric individuals can still speak about the transition process, hormone blockers, and other treatments if they desire to with their therapist. The therapist can still, with this proposal enacted, make suggestions, but by no means, can force the individual to undergo this treatment.
I strongly suggest you consult articles and people undergoing therapy for gender dysphoria to better inform yourself on treatment of this condition.

[Prydania]

The Havenic government is against this resolution. The education and medical treatment of children is the rightful domaine of the parents of the child, not the government.

“I would like to remind the delegate from the Greater Vakolicci Haven that a parent’s right to oversee the development of their child or children does not extend to a right of child abuse. Which so-called ‘conversion therapy’ most certainly is when applied to a child.”

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Given that the majority of gender dysphoric youth reidentify with their biological sex by adulthood, it is not at all absurd to permit member states to permit child psychiatrists, according to their own national medical ethics laws and guidelines, to attempt to resolve "incongruence[s] between expressed gender identity and sex" by helping their patients adjust to their biological sex.

Without evidence, this proposal would make it a crime to help a dysphoric boy adjust to his boyhood or a dysphoric girl adjust to her girlhood. The only justification that has been offered is that child psychiatric intervention somehow infringes on some amorphous right of children to "choose" their own "identities." The best that society can do for a distressed child is, you say, to "let him be."

"Wrong choice of words, Ambassador. Like any other peaceable person, a minor has the right not to be coerced into a cultural straitjacket. A psychologist's support role for a gender-unsure person is to help them identify their identity, as actively or passively as that person is comfortable with. If that winds up ultimately being the same as the biological sex, fine - but nudging them in either direction is malpractice any way you slice it. All this proposal does is acknowledge that fact. It doesn't dismiss psychologists who help their patients in responsible, restrained fashion."

[Imperium Anglorum]

Oh wow, we just found the real bad faith interpretation.

[Christian Democrats]

Given that the majority of gender dysphoric youth reidentify with their biological sex by adulthood, it is not at all absurd to permit member states to permit child psychiatrists, according to their own national medical ethics laws and guidelines, to attempt to resolve "incongruence[s] between expressed gender identity and sex" by helping their patients adjust to their biological sex.

Without evidence, this proposal would make it a crime to help a dysphoric boy adjust to his boyhood or a dysphoric girl adjust to her girlhood. The only justification that has been offered is that child psychiatric intervention somehow infringes on some amorphous right of children to "choose" their own "identities." The best that society can do for a distressed child is, you say, to "let him be."

Excuse my brashness, but I find this to be a grossly improper and derived interpretation of the proposal text. Nowhere in the document is it even suggested that the most effective and common forms of therapy for gender dysmorphic youth, including but not limited to talk therapy and the likes, are discouraged or prohibited by its mandates. It only forbids people including therapists and doctors from coercing gender dysphoric individuals to change their gender. Additionally, gender dysphoric individuals can still speak about the transition process, hormone blockers, and other treatments if they desire to with their therapist. The therapist can still, with this proposal enacted, make suggestions, but by no means, can force the individual to undergo this treatment.
I strongly suggest you consult articles and people undergoing therapy for gender dysphoria to better inform yourself on treatment of this condition.

The text in red is incorrect. This proposal would prohibit "psychological, physical, or coercive spiritual intervention." Since the word "coercive" is not applied to "psychological," this proposal would prohibit voluntary psychological intervention as well.

Given that the majority of gender dysphoric youth reidentify with their biological sex by adulthood, it is not at all absurd to permit member states to permit child psychiatrists, according to their own national medical ethics laws and guidelines, to attempt to resolve "incongruence[s] between expressed gender identity and sex" by helping their patients adjust to their biological sex.

Without evidence, this proposal would make it a crime to help a dysphoric boy adjust to his boyhood or a dysphoric girl adjust to her girlhood. The only justification that has been offered is that child psychiatric intervention somehow infringes on some amorphous right of children to "choose" their own "identities." The best that society can do for a distressed child is, you say, to "let him be."

"Wrong choice of words, Ambassador. Like any other peaceable person, a minor has the right not to be coerced into a cultural straitjacket.

As I just said, this proposal would prohibit voluntary care, including care sought by the minor patient himself.

A psychologist's support role for a gender-unsure person is to help them identify their identity, as actively or passively as that person is comfortable with. If that winds up ultimately being the same as the biological sex, fine - but nudging them in either direction is malpractice any way you slice it. All this proposal does is acknowledge that fact. It doesn't dismiss psychologists who help their patients in responsible, restrained fashion."

"Nudging" a patient, as you put it, should not be a crime. It should not send a child psychiatrist to prison. Individuals who provide counseling and psychiatric care "nudge" people all the time -- e.g., by dissuading patients from engaging in self-harm.

[Zone 71]

Excuse my brashness, but I find this to be a grossly improper and derived interpretation of the proposal text. Nowhere in the document is it even suggested that the most effective and common forms of therapy for gender dysmorphic youth, including but not limited to talk therapy and the likes, are discouraged or prohibited by its mandates. It only forbids people including therapists and doctors from coercing gender dysphoric individuals to change their gender. Additionally, gender dysphoric individuals can still speak about the transition process, hormone blockers, and other treatments if they desire to with their therapist. The therapist can still, with this proposal enacted, make suggestions, but by no means, can force the individual to undergo this treatment.
I strongly suggest you consult articles and people undergoing therapy for gender dysphoria to better inform yourself on treatment of this condition.

The text in red is incorrect. This proposal would prohibit "psychological, physical, or coercive spiritual intervention." Since the word "coercive" is not applied to "psychological," this proposal would prohibit voluntary psychological intervention as well.

Even so, it still stands that this proposal only prohibits "any attempt to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of an individual," so my points still stand. Therapists cannot make any attempt to change the gender identity of a dysphoric individual based on this proposal- nor would they ever want nor need to in a realistic scenario. Therapists are supposed to consul their clients and the symptoms of the affliction they're facing and suggest treatments to cope. I don't believe any therapist would urge their client to reclassify their gender if their client had not already wanted to originally.