[PASSED] Liberate The Communal Confederacy

[Funkadelia]

I'm really surprised that we have to have this debate of whether KAISERREICH is fascist or not. Let's just take a quick look at their pinned dispatch that was created by the founder of the region.

For reference: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=791311

From their post:

This is a propaganda poster for the Volkssturm, the Nazi militia established at the end of WWII. The poster used was hastily edited so that it wouldn't get slapped by the mods because under that photoshop, they're wearing Nazi armbands.

From their post:

This is a Nazi election propaganda poster, saying "Workers who work with the head or the fist vote for the soldier Hitler!" The national socialist underpinnings of the poster are clearly not lost on KAISERREICH, as it now says "Workers who work with the head or the fist don't just RP! Join the Workforce!"

From their post:

This is most clearly a Nazi poster. "Tod der Luge" means death to lies, with a Nazi armbanded fist grabbing a snake that is labeled "Marx" and "High Finance", which is clearly a dog whistle for Jews in Nazi lexicon. Underneath it says "Join us by defeating it!" Which is the most clearly fascist and antisemitic poster they have.

From their post:

Both of these posters use fascist turns of phrase. Being the "defender" of "true civilization in culture" is Orientalist phraseology that essentially implies supremacy of the KREICH "culture" over those that they consider to be lesser, which from the other posters means Jews and leftists. "Remember your past and who you are" is intended to encourage white men to remember their race and, judging by the other posters here, defend it from some form of attack, presumably by "high-finance."

Unfortunately KAISERREICH is an overtly fascist region that uses these coded phrases to groom young men into their hateful worldview. The debate of whether KAISERREICH is a fascist or nazi region or not is essentially not even necessary, because they provide the evidence for it themselves. I hope in the future people will remember this evidence.

[Triemann]

Edit: KREICH is considered Fascist by most of NS, me included. Not everyone that has a fascist region will put up the tag.

Were Kaiserreich a fascist region, what reason to not put up the tag would we have? If you claim we have a fascist government, culture, and racist policies, than what incentive for a larger region to not make that clear is there?

We do not have the fascist tag, because, quite simply, we aren't fascist. Why would we not have it were we proudly fascist, as you insinuate?

[New Emeline]

Edit: KREICH is considered Fascist by most of NS, me included. Not everyone that has a fascist region will put up the tag.

Were Kaiserreich a fascist region, what reason to not put up the tag would we have? If you claim we have a fascist government, culture, and racist policies, than what incentive for a larger region to not make that clear is there?

We do not have the fascist tag, because, quite simply, we aren't fascist. Why would we not have it were we proudly fascist, as you insinuate?

"We don't call ourselves fascist, therefore we aren't."

[Fox Mulderss]

Were Kaiserreich a fascist region, what reason to not put up the tag would we have? If you claim we have a fascist government, culture, and racist policies, than what incentive for a larger region to not make that clear is there?

We do not have the fascist tag, because, quite simply, we aren't fascist. Why would we not have it were we proudly fascist, as you insinuate?

"We don't call ourselves fascist, therefore we aren't."

So denying fascism is the same as admitting to being fascist...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Central Asian Republics]

Voted against on the basis that the Resolution mislabels the raider region as "Fascist" in a not-so subtle trick of emotional manipulation, especially when the word is underlined.

Not to mention that the region was apparently dying regardless of the raid, so talking about its former (pre-raid, pre-decline) population is irrelevant.

This resolution reeks of the cheap, leftist tactic of tugging on your heart string, especially with its last line where it mentions the region's "potential", a potential that was lost of their own fault.

[New Emeline]

"We don't call ourselves fascist, therefore we aren't."

So denying fascism is the same as admitting to being fascist...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

No, isn't the same, but denying fascism while behaving in a fascist manner is. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

[Triemann]

So denying fascism is the same as admitting to being fascist...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

No, isn't the same, but denying fascism while behaving in a fascist manner is. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

And how do we act "fascist" when my earlier and wordier arguments have explicitly proven otherwise?

[Central Asian Republics]

So denying fascism is the same as admitting to being fascist...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

No, isn't the same, but denying fascism while behaving in a fascist manner is. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

Except raiding is not an exclusively fascist behaviour, besides, can you list anything about their region that would suggest they're fascist?

[New Emeline]

No, isn't the same, but denying fascism while behaving in a fascist manner is. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.

Except raiding is not an exclusively fascist behaviour, besides, can you list anything about their region that would suggest they're fascist?

The lengthy above post.

[Triemann]

I'm really surprised that we have to have this debate of whether KAISERREICH is fascist or not. Let's just take a quick look at their pinned dispatch that was created by the founder of the region.

For reference: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=791311

From their post:

(Image)

This is a propaganda poster for the Volkssturm, the Nazi militia established at the end of WWII. The poster used was hastily edited so that it wouldn't get slapped by the mods because under that photoshop, they're wearing Nazi armbands.

From their post:

(Image)

This is a Nazi election propaganda poster, saying "Workers who work with the head or the fist vote for the soldier Hitler!" The national socialist underpinnings of the poster are clearly not lost on KAISERREICH, as it now says "Workers who work with the head or the fist don't just RP! Join the Workforce!"

From their post:

(Image)

This is most clearly a Nazi poster. "Tod der Luge" means death to lies, with a Nazi armbanded fist grabbing a snake that is labeled "Marx" and "High Finance", which is clearly a dog whistle for Jews in Nazi lexicon. Underneath it says "Join us by defeating it!" Which is the most clearly fascist and antisemitic poster they have.

From their post:

(Image)
(Image)

Both of these posters use fascist turns of phrase. Being the "defender" of "true civilization in culture" is Orientalist phraseology that essentially implies supremacy of the KREICH "culture" over those that they consider to be lesser, which from the other posters means Jews and leftists. "Remember your past and who you are" is intended to encourage white men to remember their race and, judging by the other posters here, defend it from some form of attack, presumably by "high-finance."

Unfortunately KAISERREICH is an overtly fascist region that uses these coded phrases to groom young men into their hateful worldview. The debate of whether KAISERREICH is a fascist or nazi region or not is essentially not even necessary, because they provide the evidence for it themselves. I hope in the future people will remember this evidence.

In all of this, you miss one simple thing: we overtly censor the Nazi elements and appropriate the images to our use, so that we don't promote hatred and convert young men to anti-Semitic worldviews.

Your argument discusses the hidden meaning of inter-war propaganda and its meaning in the real historical context. What you do not discuss is that our efforts explicitly censor the offensive aspects at the expense of decent looking propaganda. Inter-war propaganda is often used, because that is the easiest to find and make propaganda from lol

And, your argument against our anti-Communist propaganda is ineffective, as our region is explicitly tagged as anti-Communist because Communism is a dangerous ideology under which people are discriminated and murdered only for the amount of resources they have compared to others. Just as Nazism is dangerous for discriminating and murdering people only for their different religion and ethnicity.

This is your argument "Kaiserreich is fascist for censoring Nazi propaganda and changing its meaning."

I will never understand it.

[Fox Mulderss]

I'm really surprised that we have to have this debate of whether KAISERREICH is fascist or not. Let's just take a quick look at their pinned dispatch that was created by the founder of the region.

For reference: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=791311

From their post:

(Image)

This is a propaganda poster for the Volkssturm, the Nazi militia established at the end of WWII. The poster used was hastily edited so that it wouldn't get slapped by the mods because under that photoshop, they're wearing Nazi armbands.

From their post:

(Image)

This is a Nazi election propaganda poster, saying "Workers who work with the head or the fist vote for the soldier Hitler!" The national socialist underpinnings of the poster are clearly not lost on KAISERREICH, as it now says "Workers who work with the head or the fist don't just RP! Join the Workforce!"

From their post:

(Image)

This is most clearly a Nazi poster. "Tod der Luge" means death to lies, with a Nazi armbanded fist grabbing a snake that is labeled "Marx" and "High Finance", which is clearly a dog whistle for Jews in Nazi lexicon. Underneath it says "Join us by defeating it!" Which is the most clearly fascist and antisemitic poster they have.

From their post:

(Image)
(Image)

Both of these posters use fascist turns of phrase. Being the "defender" of "true civilization in culture" is Orientalist phraseology that essentially implies supremacy of the KREICH "culture" over those that they consider to be lesser, which from the other posters means Jews and leftists. "Remember your past and who you are" is intended to encourage white men to remember their race and, judging by the other posters here, defend it from some form of attack, presumably by "high-finance."

Unfortunately KAISERREICH is an overtly fascist region that uses these coded phrases to groom young men into their hateful worldview. The debate of whether KAISERREICH is a fascist or nazi region or not is essentially not even necessary, because they provide the evidence for it themselves. I hope in the future people will remember this evidence.

I'll admit... I can't speak German. I had no idea that said "high finance" nor it's supposed link to jews. I'll admit that is rather odd, because I have never encouraged nor been encouraged to hate the jews during my stay in Kaiserreich. I've certainly never tried to groom anyone to any political belief. I've had men of all beliefs under my service, athiests, liberals, and even a full, unabashed communist. They were accepted with open arms and were never treated differently for there beliefs.

The rest of the posters, while perhaps Nazi in origin, no longer bear nazi messages. The Work not RP poster was a humorous(at least to me) attempt to motivate our citizens to actually participate in the region instead of just doing RP. I think the bottom two are just vanilla nationalism. They are rather flamboyant. Probably too flamboyant. But they aren't subliminal messages telling us to kill the jews.

[Central Asian Republics]

This is a propaganda poster for the Volkssturm, the Nazi militia established at the end of WWII. The poster used was hastily edited so that it wouldn't get slapped by the mods because under that photoshop, they're wearing Nazi armbands.

Yes, and? The Nazi armbands were edited out and now it just looks like an imperial German propaganda poster, hardly fascist.

From their post:

(Image)

This is a Nazi election propaganda poster

Correction, this was a Nazi election poster, however it's self-evident from the caption that the poster is not promoting fascist ideology, therefore it isn't fascist.

From their post:

(Image)

This is most clearly a Nazi poster. "Tod der Luge" means death to lies, with a Nazi armbanded fist grabbing a snake that is labeled "Marx" and "High Finance", which is clearly a dog whistle for Jews in Nazi lexicon.

What about it? Do you support lying? Also, the Nazi armband has been edited out, whether you think it's due to site rules or not, there is no Nazi armband. Dog whistling is impossible to prove without admittance, and only says more about your paranoia rather than their supposed "Nazi" views.

From their post:

(Image)
(Image)

Both of these posters use fascist turns of phrase. Being the "defender" of "true civilization in culture" is Orientalist phraseology that essentially implies supremacy of the KREICH "culture" over those that they consider to be lesser, which from the other posters means Jews and leftists.

It makes no mention of race, ergo not fascist or Nazi. You've also made the assumption that the Jews are on the other side of this. Next.

"Remember your past and who you are" is intended to encourage white men to remember their race and, judging by the other posters here, defend it from some form of attack, presumably by "high-finance."

No, the painting itself depicts the Prussian army. As far as I'm aware, KAISERREICH is themed on Imperial Germany, Prussia was the dominating state of Imperial Germany, and Northeast Germans from the specific area of Prussia does not represent the entirety of the white race. Look at how desperate you are.

Unfortunately KAISERREICH is an overtly fascist region that uses these coded phrases to groom

Prove it. I can just as easily make up some non-nonsensical claim that whatever you're saying is a dog whistle for Communism, but I won't because it's a load of rubbish.

I hope in the future people will remember this evidence.

Calling your crude and simplistic analysis as "evidence" is far-fetched at the very least.

Except raiding is not an exclusively fascist behaviour, besides, can you list anything about their region that would suggest they're fascist?

The lengthy above post.

How's this for a lengthy post?

[Galiantus III]

While I agree that the word "Fascism" is thrown around very willy-nilly nowadays, I think it is an accurate description of Kaiserreich. The region is an imperialist outpost, based on Nazi Germany. That is Fascism. Anyone who wishes to prove they aren't a fascist should distance themselves from them as much as humanly possible.

[Fox Mulderss]

This is a propaganda poster for the Volkssturm, the Nazi militia established at the end of WWII. The poster used was hastily edited so that it wouldn't get slapped by the mods because under that photoshop, they're wearing Nazi armbands.

Yes, and? The Nazi armbands were edited out and now it just looks like an imperial German propaganda poster, hardly fascist.

From their post:

(Image)

This is a Nazi election propaganda poster

Correction, this was a Nazi election poster, however it's self-evident from the caption that the poster is not promoting fascist ideology, therefore it isn't fascist.

From their post:

(Image)

This is most clearly a Nazi poster. "Tod der Luge" means death to lies, with a Nazi armbanded fist grabbing a snake that is labeled "Marx" and "High Finance", which is clearly a dog whistle for Jews in Nazi lexicon.

What about it? Do you support lying? Also, the Nazi armband has been edited out, whether you think it's due to site rules or not, there is no Nazi armband. Dog whistling is impossible to prove without admittance, and only says more about your paranoia rather than their supposed "Nazi" views.

From their post:

(Image)
(Image)

Both of these posters use fascist turns of phrase. Being the "defender" of "true civilization in culture" is Orientalist phraseology that essentially implies supremacy of the KREICH "culture" over those that they consider to be lesser, which from the other posters means Jews and leftists.

It makes no mention of race, ergo not fascist or Nazi. You've also made the assumption that the Jews are on the other side of this. Next.

"Remember your past and who you are" is intended to encourage white men to remember their race and, judging by the other posters here, defend it from some form of attack, presumably by "high-finance."

No, the painting itself depicts the Prussian army. As far as I'm aware, KAISERREICH is themed on Imperial Germany, Prussia was the dominating state of Imperial Germany, and Northeast Germans from the specific area of Prussia does not represent the entirety of the white race. Look at how desperate you are.

Unfortunately KAISERREICH is an overtly fascist region that uses these coded phrases to groom

Prove it. I can just as easily make up some non-nonsensical claim that whatever you're saying is a dog whistle for Communism, but I won't because it's a load of rubbish.

I hope in the future people will remember this evidence.

Calling your crude and simplistic analysis as "evidence" is far-fetched at the very least.

The lengthy above post.

How's this for a lengthy post?

You have no idea how much this means to me

[Central Asian Republics]

While I agree that the word "Fascism" is thrown around very willy-nilly nowadays, I think it is an accurate description of Kaiserreich. The region is an imperialist outpost, based on Nazi Germany. That is Fascism. Anyone who wishes to prove they aren't a fascist should distance themselves from them as much as humanly possible.

Imperialism does not equal fascism. Would you throw around fascism to describe 19th Century empires such as Britain, France, or the USA?

The region is also clearly based on Imperial Germany, not Nazi Germany. A handful of cherrypicked propaganda posters with no mention of Nazism nor containing promotion of Nazi ideology cannot make a region fascist.

[Funkadelia]

While I agree that the word "Fascism" is thrown around very willy-nilly nowadays, I think it is an accurate description of Kaiserreich. The region is an imperialist outpost, based on Nazi Germany. That is Fascism. Anyone who wishes to prove they aren't a fascist should distance themselves from them as much as humanly possible.

Imperialism does not equal fascism. Would you throw around fascism to describe 19th Century empires such as Britain, France, or the USA?

The region is also clearly based on Imperial Germany, not Nazi Germany. A handful of cherrypicked propaganda posters with no mention of Nazism nor containing promotion of Nazi ideology cannot make a region fascist.

Ah, so clearly the ideals behind them are totally meaningless, as is the context of them. Unfortunately, your desperate denials of your putrid beliefs just really make it more clear that you hold them.

[Rrborn]

While I agree that the word "Fascism" is thrown around very willy-nilly nowadays, I think it is an accurate description of Kaiserreich. The region is an imperialist outpost, based on Nazi Germany. That is Fascism. Anyone who wishes to prove they aren't a fascist should distance themselves from them as much as humanly possible.

We are based on Imperial Germany. A nation founded in 1871 in the aftermath the Franco Prussian war, and collapsed in 1918/19, at the end of ww1. All the two have in common is a language, the region they were in(Germany), and a fashion sense.

[Central Asian Republics]

Imperialism does not equal fascism. Would you throw around fascism to describe 19th Century empires such as Britain, France, or the USA?

The region is also clearly based on Imperial Germany, not Nazi Germany. A handful of cherrypicked propaganda posters with no mention of Nazism nor containing promotion of Nazi ideology cannot make a region fascist.

Ah, so clearly the ideals behind them are totally meaningless, as is the context of them. Unfortunately, your desperate denials of your putrid beliefs just really make it more clear that you hold them.

Define "them" before you unprofessionally slander me during a Security Council debate.

[Triemann]

The region is an imperialist outpost, based on Nazi Germany. That is Fascism. Anyone who wishes to prove they aren't a fascist should distance themselves from them as much as humanly possible.

I agree we are an imperialist outpost, but boy would I like to educate you over the German Empire, called Kaiserreich or Deutsches Reich in German.

We are based off of the German Empire (1871-1919). We are led by a Kaiser (emperor, in German) who is the supreme authority, but at his side are advisors and generals who dominate the Reichstag (legislative body). We have a strong military tradition akin to the German Empire, as well as a monarch, constitution, and legislative body.

Nazi Germany is a socialist government who damned its history of autocratic rule by an imperial family. We are the exact opposite of that.

[Rrborn]

Imperialism does not equal fascism. Would you throw around fascism to describe 19th Century empires such as Britain, France, or the USA?

The region is also clearly based on Imperial Germany, not Nazi Germany. A handful of cherrypicked propaganda posters with no mention of Nazism nor containing promotion of Nazi ideology cannot make a region fascist.

Ah, so clearly the ideals behind them are totally meaningless, as is the context of them. Unfortunately, your desperate denials of your putrid beliefs just really make it more clear that you hold them.

Yes. It is. By editing the images and changjng the text we did our best to erase the context and change the ideals they represnt.

[Prydania]

Anyone who knows me, or who has followed my admittedly sporadic posts in the WA will know I have no tolerance for fascism or Nazism. It’s an issue that’s very dear to my heart. So much so that I would fully support purging overt Nazism from the game entirely.

That being said? I mostly got the feeling from KReich that they were just Imperial German fanboys and fangirls. Monarchists? Yes. Conservatives? Probably, for the most part. Nazis though? I don’t get that feeling from the current group of people running things. And due to how serious I take Nazism and fascism? I like to think I’ve developed an effective sense for sniffing out their bs. I just don’t find much here.

Now I’m not a naive person. I know that Imperial German symbolism has been co-opted by Nazis and fascists. And that these symbols are often used to provide cover. So it’s because of those concerns, and the concerns over a very tasteless joke made by their Kaiser, that I reached out to someone from the region to ask them about my concerns.
I don’t claim to be the final arbiter of who is and isn’t a fascist or Nazi, but over the course of my discussion with this person via TG? I can say I never got the sense that the racist and destructive world views inherent in Nazism were present in KReich.

They’re just people who like the German Empire of 1871-1918. And I’m not comfortable watering down the labels of “fascist” and “Nazi” by applying it to them.

Prydania opposes the resolution in question on those grounds.

[Triemann]

Ah, so clearly the ideals behind them are totally meaningless, as is the context of them. Unfortunately, your desperate denials of your putrid beliefs just really make it more clear that you hold them.

I can assure you that our form of government is not tolerated in today's world. That is why we emulate an empire online rather than re-unify the German States under the Kaiser. Your adamant demanding that you know what we're based off of through a handful of propaganda posters is devoid of logic, especially when faced with multiple sources within Kaiserreich that assure you, independently, we're based off of the German Empire.

[Lenlyvit]

Don't need screenshots to prove what I say, only need to look at influence levels and residency time. Wanton Disregard was a resident of The Communal Confederacy as a sleeper for 467.42089529488 days. Accounting for two updates per day, the nation should have 934 influence but right now only has 253 influence. Even if they didn't log in every 7 days to continue collecting influence, which I highly think they did because it was a sleeper, it would have over at least 700 influence. Wanton Disregard has been in the WA multiple times over its history in the region with endorsements to increase its influence, so it should be even higher than what I predict due to that. At the time of the password change there were 9-11 nations in the region, meaning it would cost anywhere between 400-480 spdr to lock the region behind a hidden password. 253+400=653 at the least amount it should have, even after kicking any nations out which I doubt it did. The influence levels don't add up with the residency time, and if you did kick nations out then it still counts as a hostile occupation.

[Rrborn]

Don't need screenshots to prove what I say, only need to look at influence levels and residency time. Wanton Disregard was a resident of The Communal Confederacy as a sleeper for 467.42089529488 days. Accounting for two updates per day, the nation should have 934 influence but right now only has 253 influence. Even if they didn't log in every 7 days to continue collecting influence, which I highly think they did because it was a sleeper, it would have over at least 700 influence. Wanton Disregard has been in the WA multiple times over its history in the region with endorsements to increase its influence, so it should be even higher than what I predict due to that. At the time of the password change there were 9-11 nations in the region, meaning it would cost anywhere between 400-480 spdr to lock the region behind a hidden password. 253+400=653 at the least amount it should have, even after kicking any nations out which I doubt it did. The influence levels don't add up with the residency time, and if you did kick nations out then it still counts as a hostile occupation.

Yes you do, because that doesn't prove we changed the password. I've never had enough influence to change the password, partly because I kicked out one of Wanton's puppets because I thought he was a defender who had snuck in.

Look, I don't understand the influence math you just did, it looks like gibberish to me, but I do know that we are still using the same password to bring reinforcements into the Confederacy that we used to jump into it. Now I would really like to see the supposed password change you observed, and it brings me great pleasure to no you can't, because you didn't.

[Lenlyvit]

Don't need screenshots to prove what I say, only need to look at influence levels and residency time. Wanton Disregard was a resident of The Communal Confederacy as a sleeper for 467.42089529488 days. Accounting for two updates per day, the nation should have 934 influence but right now only has 253 influence. Even if they didn't log in every 7 days to continue collecting influence, which I highly think they did because it was a sleeper, it would have over at least 700 influence. Wanton Disregard has been in the WA multiple times over its history in the region with endorsements to increase its influence, so it should be even higher than what I predict due to that. At the time of the password change there were 9-11 nations in the region, meaning it would cost anywhere between 400-480 spdr to lock the region behind a hidden password. 253+400=653 at the least amount it should have, even after kicking any nations out which I doubt it did. The influence levels don't add up with the residency time, and if you did kick nations out then it still counts as a hostile occupation.

Yes you do, because that doesn't prove we changed the password. I've never had enough influence to change the password, partly because I kicked out one of Wanton's puppets because I thought he was a defender who had snuck in.

Look, I don't understand the influence math you just did, it looks like gibberish to me, but I do know that we are still using the same password to bring reinforcements into the Confederacy that we used to jump into it. Now I would really like to see the supposed password change you observed, and it brings me great pleasure to no you can't, because you didn't.

It did, as my logic obviously proves to anyone who has an inkling of how influence works in regions. Maybe you should go learn some real R/D knowledge?