[PASSED]: Liberate Nationalist Union

[Kanaia]

Can you please tell me how you know Nationalist Union is full of role players?

Certainly.

1 CTE'd nation = region full of role players?

[Greater Tezdrian]

Certainly.

1 CTE'd nation = region full of role players?

And myself. We were a very active RP community/

[Glorious Republic of Glory]

Certainly.

1 CTE'd nation = region full of role players?

Don't forget how proud they are of being themselves. A region completely without any hate whatsoever.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=548703

This actually looks like one big front to me. 2 RPs, declared anti-Semitism, cloaked by a pathetic veil of nationalism. I really wonder what kind of region this was.

EDIT: Never mind. There was actually one RP. The second player claiming had actually no record of RPing in that region whatsoever.

[Ossitania]

A simple glance at the region founded by the Glorious Republic of Glory clearly indicates that his opposition is not merely rooted in an ideological dispute - as he wishes to emulate the tactics of other anti-fascist raider groups, it would certainly benefit his plans if this body were to set a precedent of shooting down the liberation of nationalist regions. His naked opportunism has been noted with displeasure by the Ossitanian delegation, as is his non-response to our arguments in favour of the liberation and against his position. Perhaps he fears too much moving and shaking lest he fall of the ideological promontory on which he has positioned himself.

If I wish to emulate the tactics of the antifa groups, then that would explain the ideological dispute, and problem, I have with the liberation, wouldn't it? But I still don't see your point.

And meanwhile, I would still like an explanation as to "No Juden in my nation." can be justified as anything less than fascist.

Right because there have never been anti-Semites in any, say, communist countries or anything.

At any rate, you still haven't answered my question on how occupying a nationalist region will actually destroy fascism if that is your goal - all it will do is displace the nations in the region who can either refound elsewhere or join up to existing regions. Surely it is preferable to have these nations concentrated in isolated pockets rather than thrown around the place?

EDIT: Also, I'm loving how 36 threads by a CTE'd nation are dismissed on the one hand while a single post by a CTE'd nation is the ultimate proof of their fascist tendencies. Stellar marks on the consistency there, guys.

[New Heathera]

Can you please tell me how you know Nationalist Union is full of role players?

Certainly.

That does nothing to prove that Nationalist Union is a role play region.

[Glorious Republic of Glory]

If I wish to emulate the tactics of the antifa groups, then that would explain the ideological dispute, and problem, I have with the liberation, wouldn't it? But I still don't see your point.

And meanwhile, I would still like an explanation as to "No Juden in my nation." can be justified as anything less than fascist.

Right because there have never been anti-Semites in any, say, communist countries or anything.

At any rate, you still haven't answered my question on how occupying a nationalist region will actually destroy fascism if that is your goal - all it will do is displace the nations in the region who can either refound elsewhere or join up to existing regions. Surely it is preferable to have these nations concentrated in isolated pockets rather than thrown around the place?

EDIT: Also, I'm loving how 36 threads by a CTE'd nation are dismissed on the one hand while a single post by a CTE'd nation is the ultimate proof of their fascist tendencies. Stellar marks on the consistency there, guys.

The problem with that is once they acknowledge each other, they cluster up and become a threat to the existence of others. It's like atomic fusion. One uranium atom is actually harmless, but enough of them can make a bomb.

EDIT: And please, read before you blindly post. Stalin singled out perceived threats to his power, not a single group because of their ethnicity or religion. (I.E, the "Rich Peasants" were both Jewish and Christian.) Other than that, I would love to see a time when the Jews, just the Jews, were singled out by Stalin.

[Greater Tezdrian]

Certainly.

That does nothing to prove that Nationalist Union is a role play region.

We were an RP region. Quite active. GA and I RP'ed constantly along with En and a few others. Admittedly this was in the earlier days of the region, when we just started out.

[Glorious Republic of Glory]

That does nothing to prove that Nationalist Union is a role play region.

We were an RP region. Quite active. GA and I RP'ed constantly along with En and a few others. Admittedly this was in the earlier days of the region, when we just started out.

Prove it.

[Ossitania]

Right because there have never been anti-Semites in any, say, communist countries or anything.

At any rate, you still haven't answered my question on how occupying a nationalist region will actually destroy fascism if that is your goal - all it will do is displace the nations in the region who can either refound elsewhere or join up to existing regions. Surely it is preferable to have these nations concentrated in isolated pockets rather than thrown around the place?

EDIT: Also, I'm loving how 36 threads by a CTE'd nation are dismissed on the one hand while a single post by a CTE'd nation is the ultimate proof of their fascist tendencies. Stellar marks on the consistency there, guys.

The problem with that is once they acknowledge each other, they cluster up and become a threat to the existence of others. It's like atomic fusion. One uranium atom is actually harmless, but enough of them can make a bomb.

EDIT: And please, read before you blindly post. Stalin singled out perceived threats to his power, not a single group because of their ethnicity or religion. (I.E, the "Rich Peasants" were both Jewish and Christian.) Other than that, I would love to see a time when the Jews, just the Jews, were singled out by Stalin.

You mean how like you and your friends are clustering up and threatening the nationalists? Your analogy even holds true; alone, you sound like a bunch of wackos, but together, you actually manage to put together a passable facsimile of a valid argument against protecting this region's right to self-determination that is as dangerous as any atomic bomb.

Perhaps you should read before you blindly post. There is plenty of historic evidence of Stalin's antisemitism. I suppose you think the Night of the Murdered Poets was a bad idea Stalin had after having too much to drink?

[Glorious Republic of Glory]

What self determination? They were overthrown. In that case, the region "Communist" should be given back to the orginal inhabitants. Where's the uproar in that?
They have determined their fate: They're not in their region anymore because some people just disagreed and threw them out. It happens all the time, but it's strange to see it come up this one time.

[Ora Amaris]

We need to answer two questions:

(1) Are they truly a fascistic region?
No
Then they are an RP region, and thus their ideology has no bearing in this debate. In this case, I would vote FOR.

Yes
Then we go onto the next question:

(2) Is it moral to silence, persecute, or otherwise restrict the freedom of speech of those with hateful views?
I would argue it is. Inciting hatred only brews further hatred.

So, unless one can answer the first question as "no" for me, my vote will remain AGAINST.

[Tibberiria]

So, the gist of this debate is that we shouldn't liberate because members of the region may be OOC Nazi sympathizers, right? Or are we just against it because they may be Nazi role players?

Nonetheless, I voted for.

[Ora Amaris]

So, the gist of this debate is that we shouldn't liberate because members of the region may be OOC Nazi sympathizers, right? Or are we just against it because they may be Nazi role players?

Yes, essentially.

[Tibberiria]

Ok. My vote stands, though. I don't begrudge anyone's disagreements though.

[Greater Tezdrian]

OOC I'm a fascist. Everyone knows this. But why should this keep my home region from being liberated? Or anyone's?

[Poni]

I am in full support of Liberating the Nationalist Union. It is completely insane that these extremists are all heavily focused on destroying this region because of their beliefs, regardless of whether or not they were role playing. The region wasn't trying to attack others or force their beliefs, so why is this occuring to them? Answer: The opposers are really just close-minded and will look at any nationalism as bloodthirsty fascism, despite beliefs similar to communism having also been bloodthirsty in the past and due to this will stop at nothing to enforce their views on others even when the victims weren't serious or even violence-provoking.

[Dagguerro]

At first we were rather undecided with this one. On the one hand the Dagguerrean Empire cannot support hate-filled views. However on the other hand there appears to be equal amounts of vitriol and hatred coming from Antifa and their supporters against people even "daring" to consider voting for liberation. Not to mention the absolutely disgusting attitude from them being shown in the messages coming out of the seized region.

Consequently unless someone can convince us otherwise we intend to stick to the principle as exemplified by the old adage:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
The ambassador for Dagguerro votes FOR this Liberate motion.


OOC:

So, the gist of this debate is that we shouldn't liberate because members of the region may be OOC Nazi sympathizers, right? Or are we just against it because they may be Nazi role players?

Yes, essentially.

Whole thing seems utterly, utterly ludicrous to me. Antifa seems to be randomly lashing out against a particular RP group on the basis of assuming their RL beliefs. Not to mention having a row with the moderators over it.

[Ora Amaris]

OOC:

Yes, essentially.

Whole thing seems utterly, utterly ludicrous to me. Antifa seems to be randomly lashing out against a particular RP group on the basis of assuming their RL beliefs. Not to mention having a row with the moderators over it.

Granted. Looking through the posts, they seem to have too much time on their hands.
But I think its better to just let it be.

[New Heathera]

That does nothing to prove that Nationalist Union is a role play region.

We were an RP region. Quite active. GA and I RP'ed constantly along with En and a few others. Admittedly this was in the earlier days of the region, when we just started out.

I'm not talking about how active you guys were in the forum. I'm asking if the region as a whole is true nationalist or pretending to be nationalist.

Wait, how many nations were even in this region before it was raided? This doesn't look like one of those big raided regions full of raiders and natives that haven't been ejected yet. Why liberate a region that's going to be left a near-lifeless husk after the raiders are cleared?

[Drop Your Pants]

I support this, mostly after reading the mess on the NU RMB. Pity the mods removed some of the posts though, i liked the insults

[Warzone Codger]

Why liberate a region that's going to be left a near-lifeless husk after the raiders are cleared?

Cause we need an empty shiny badged liberated region to fight over. All the existing ones have either been repealed or refounded.

[Novus Niciae]

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=417765

There it is.

For extra measure, here's also some more of that nationalistic pride the region holds so dear.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=548703

I propose a conflict with The Free Land of True Leveller Gerrard Winstanley and others. We should try to take over any RED region the same way they do. I see that they are cowards though and always lock the region down. I guess RED and YELLOW go hand in hand....

(From first link)

They support invasions so they have no cause to complain when they themselves are invaded.

If this was just a RP region I would vote to liberate, but since they actively invade other regions themselves... well as the old saying goes "let those who live by the sword die by the sword."

[Ossitania]

What self determination? They were overthrown. In that case, the region "Communist" should be given back to the orginal inhabitants. Where's the uproar in that?
They have determined their fate: They're not in their region anymore because some people just disagreed and threw them out. It happens all the time, but it's strange to see it come up this one time.

I'd vote for a Liberation of Communist if it came up. What exactly is the point you're trying to make here? If somebody breaks into my house and kicks me out of it, that doesn't suddenly make it their house. Funnily enough, I have a feeling that if it was your region that got invaded and overthrown, you wouldn't be arguing against a Liberation attempt.

It's not strange at all to see it come up "this one time" - Liberation proposals are a standard part of Security Council procedure. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time arguing with an ideological pedagogue, especially one who conveniently doesn't respond to arguments he knows he has lost;

How can intolerance of intolerance be just if it should, by its very nature, be intolerant of itself and therefore not even exist in the first place? Your argument is circular, broksi.

I'm loving how 36 threads by a CTE'd nation are dismissed on the one hand while a single post by a CTE'd nation is the ultimate proof of their fascist tendencies. Stellar marks on the consistency there, guys.

You mean how like you and your friends are clustering up and threatening the nationalists?

[New Heathera]

Look, the region is now devoid of all natives. The delegate and 2 endorsing him are the only ones left. At this point, it would actually be more beneficial to leave this region to the raiders and let the ex-natives found a new one. Are you seriously going to liberate an empty shell that will forever still be vulnerable as long as there is no founder?

[Greater Tezdrian]

Look, the region is now devoid of all natives. The delegate and 2 endorsing him are the only ones left. At this point, it would actually be more beneficial to leave this region to the raiders and let the ex-natives found a new one. Are you seriously going to liberate an empty shell that will forever still be vulnerable as long as there is no founder?

Yes. I want my goddamn region back.