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Indigenous Names To New World Places

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Australian rePublic
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Indigenous Names To New World Places

Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:09 am

So, as a centrist sometimes I like to criticise the stupid shit the left and says does and to a lesser extent, and to a lesser extent, what the far right says or does. But that's mostly because what the far right says is so stupid it's not worth my brain cells. So here's something that some people on the moderate and far right have criticised- giving Indigenous names to transit stops in the New World, renaming new world cities with Indigenous names, etc.

So, let's actually discuss the matter and the thing that encouraged me to start this thread. Sydney is on the verge of opening a new light rail line and a new metro line, with a light rail stop called "Yallamundi" and a metro stop called "Gadigal". This is despite the fact that the surrounding areas don't have that name. So naturally, some people opposed those names on principal saying we shouldn't be "giving into" Aboriginals by giving these stations Aboriginal names. I think that's completely ridiculous. When I point to them the fact that there are train stations with Aboriginal names in suburbs with Aboriginal names such as "Warrawee" or "Yagoona", they genuinely don't know what to say that. It's completely ridiculous to whinge about this, and if you disagree that it is, I'd like to see why it matters.

Then you get the other matter and why people to complain about these names- a reason that's not completely idiotic. Wayfinding. The entire purpose of a station's name is wayfinding. Yallamundi is just an awful name for wayfinding. The word "Yallamundi" means storyteller, which is named that for the university there. That's awful for wayfinding purposes. I wrote to the geographic names board of NSW to suggest that they rename that area as "Yallamundi" but they said no, which is just silly. I mean, it would be good for wayfinding, especially considering that it's a bloody university with thousands of students from all around the world that need wayfinding. I'd be happy with the "University of Western Sydney- Yallamundi Campus", but that's not gonna happen according to the geographics name board of NSW (hmmm... maybe I should write to the university?) and considering that Tallawong became a suburb for that station as recently as 2019, why can't we do the same for Yallamundi? (For the record, a different light rail stop serving a critical mental hospital is known as "Ngara" and also has the same wayfinding problem)

Gadigal is a different matter because it's one of 10 downtown stations so the area around there can easily be come to known as "Gadigal"

I fully support station names like "Yagoona" or "Barangaroo" or "Toongabi" or "Berowra" or any of the dozens of other Aboriginal station names. Why? Because Yagoona station is in Yagoona, so claling it anything would be insane. Barrangaroo station(which is on the same line as Gadigal and will open at the same time as Gadigal) is in Barrangaroo, and therefore naming it anything else would be wrong. Toongabi station is in Toongabi, so naming it anything else would be silly, Berowra station is Berwora, so it wouldn't make sense to give it any other name, and the list goes on

Tallawong station was in Schofields, but there's already a Schofields station 3 kilometres away, so they gazetted a new suburb and named it "Tallawong" which was, in my opinion, the correct coarse of action.

Then we have renaming cities and towns with Aboriginal names. I don't have too much of an issue with this (within limits), but it upsets me when at Cairns airport, the display signage for domestic destinations keeps alternating between Aboriginal names and commonly used names for cities like Brisbane and Melbourne, then it defeats the purpose of such signs in the first place and makes reading the board unnecessarily difficult. If they absolutely must have the Aboriginal name up there, put both up at the same time. But, within limits, I have no issue with changing the official name. Within limits.

Anyways NSG, what do you make of all this?
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Turenia
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Postby Turenia » Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:12 am

I don't really care.

It's an aboriginal name, so it isn't as if it's a foreign name. It would be stupid if they were changing the existing english language name of a particular place, but if it's a new place, who really cares?
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:14 am

Turenia wrote:I don't really care.

It's an aboriginal name, so it isn't as if it's a foreign name. It would be stupid if they were changing the existing english language name of a particular place, but if it's a new place, who really cares?

But it's not a new place. It's a new station in an existing place. That's the problem, as it's terrible for wayfinding

I can't think of too many existing places which changed their names to Indigenous names, but I know they wanted to change "Blacktown" because the word was "racist" (which is a different kind of ridiculous, but that's a different story) but it never went ahead, and the USA's northernmost city which was formally Barrow, Alaska, changed it's name to Utqiagvik in 2016, but that's all I can really think of...
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:53 am

In the states many place names have still have their Indian roots. Manhattan for example is a Lenape word for hilly island.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:08 am

If two different language communities both use a place and have different names for it then individuals should use whichever they want in conversation and official signage should have both names on it. That seems like the adult way of dealing with it reflecting the linguistic reality rather than trying to impose on the other side for points. New places should ideally be named based on stakeholder engagement so it's confirmed that everybody can actually pronounce it and to reduce the risk of culture war weaponisation.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Haganham » Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:18 am

Australian rePublic wrote:the USA's northernmost city which was formally Barrow, Alaska, changed it's name to Utqiagvik in 2016, but that's all I can really think of...

This brings up a pretty important consideration.
Will people actually use the indigenous name?
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Postby Nyabo » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:05 am

I never thought I'd say this, but I have to give the U.S. credit for one thing in this regard - its embrace of multiculturalism. Consider the sheer diversity of city names across the country - Chattanooga, Chicago, Omaha, Miami, the Bronx, Detroit, Spokane, Albuquerque, and so many more. The U.S., for all its flaws, has at least allowed its multiculturalism to be reflected in the very geography of the country.

In contrast, the attitude in Australia seems to be one of wanting to further erase history and Indigenous identity. It's as if they're unwilling to let go of the colonial-era monikers imposed by European settlers.

Australia's resistance to embracing Aboriginal place names feels like a missed opportunity to celebrate and preserve an irreplaceable part of human heritage. It's a shame, really, when you consider how much we could learn from honoring those deep historical connections with the world's oldest civilization.
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Durius
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Postby Durius » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:07 am

What a worthless discussion. There is zero logical reason to oppose it.

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La Xinga
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Postby La Xinga » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:09 am

As long as I can pronounce it (see: Gqeberha)...

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Postby Nantoraka » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:12 am

Bilingual signs exist in the US state of Montana (GO BIG SKY COUNTRY) and they're often named after the same terms that the native Salish, Crow, Blackfeet, and Kootenai used. The problem is that trying to PRONOUNCE them is going to make your tongue fall off.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:21 am

Nyabo wrote:I never thought I'd say this, but I have to give the U.S. credit for one thing in this regard - its embrace of multiculturalism. Consider the sheer diversity of city names across the country - Chattanooga, Chicago, Omaha, Miami, the Bronx, Detroit, Spokane, Albuquerque, and so many more. The U.S., for all its flaws, has at least allowed its multiculturalism to be reflected in the very geography of the country.

In contrast, the attitude in Australia seems to be one of wanting to further erase history and Indigenous identity. It's as if they're unwilling to let go of the colonial-era monikers imposed by European settlers.

Australia's resistance to embracing Aboriginal place names feels like a missed opportunity to celebrate and preserve an irreplaceable part of human heritage. It's a shame, really, when you consider how much we could learn from honoring those deep historical connections with the world's oldest civilization.

The Bronx is Dutch.

Manhattan and rockaway are Indian.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:21 am

Nyabo wrote:I never thought I'd say this, but I have to give the U.S. credit for one thing in this regard - its embrace of multiculturalism. Consider the sheer diversity of city names across the country - Chattanooga, Chicago, Omaha, Miami, the Bronx, Detroit, Spokane, Albuquerque, and so many more. The U.S., for all its flaws, has at least allowed its multiculturalism to be reflected in the very geography of the country.

In contrast, the attitude in Australia seems to be one of wanting to further erase history and Indigenous identity. It's as if they're unwilling to let go of the colonial-era monikers imposed by European settlers.

Australia's resistance to embracing Aboriginal place names feels like a missed opportunity to celebrate and preserve an irreplaceable part of human heritage. It's a shame, really, when you consider how much we could learn from honoring those deep historical connections with the world's oldest civilization.

The Bronx is Dutch.

Manhattan and rockaway are Indian.
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Nyabo
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Postby Nyabo » Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:34 am

Ethel mermania wrote:The Bronx is Dutch.

Manhattan and rockaway are Indian.


Right. My goal was just to highlight the existence of these non-English place names in an ostensibly English-speaking country.
Last edited by Nyabo on Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kerwa » Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:05 am

Nyabo wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:The Bronx is Dutch.

Manhattan and rockaway are Indian.


Right. My goal was just to highlight the existence of these non-English place names in an ostensibly English-speaking country.


The UK does it too. Cheviot, for example, or Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. Neither are English.

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Postby El Lazaro » Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:50 pm

If reading this thread felt like a waste of your time, imagine being a local government official and dealing with similarly bizarre complaints about inane non-issues on a daily basis.

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Postby Dazchan » Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:00 pm

Nobody complains that Southern Cross Staton in Melbourne is no longer called Spencer Street. Nobody has issues with way finding there. Why is it only an issue if the name in question is indigenous?
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Postby Theodorable » Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:02 pm

I don't care. Petty moralism. If the present name works, whatever... though I would like some cities named after... unsavory individuals (ahem, JACKSON) to be renamed.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:26 pm

Durius wrote:What a worthless discussion. There is zero logical reason to oppose it.

Except wayfinding which I already explained

Nyabo wrote:I never thought I'd say this, but I have to give the U.S. credit for one thing in this regard - its embrace of multiculturalism. Consider the sheer diversity of city names across the country - Chattanooga, Chicago, Omaha, Miami, the Bronx, Detroit, Spokane, Albuquerque, and so many more. The U.S., for all its flaws, has at least allowed its multiculturalism to be reflected in the very geography of the country.

In contrast, the attitude in Australia seems to be one of wanting to further erase history and Indigenous identity. It's as if they're unwilling to let go of the colonial-era monikers imposed by European settlers.

Australia's resistance to embracing Aboriginal place names feels like a missed opportunity to celebrate and preserve an irreplaceable part of human heritage. It's a shame, really, when you consider how much we could learn from honoring those deep historical connections with the world's oldest civilization.

Australia has so many Indigenous place names that you'd be hardpressed to find a large enough area that doesn't have significant numbers of them. Australia has places like:

Narwee, Nowra, Collangatta, Murwillumbah, Yagoona, Toowoomba, Jindabyne, Cooma, Wangaratta, Geelong, Nar Nar Goon, Yass, Yarrah, Waratah, Mudgee, Birrong, Wollongong, Wyong, Gulgong, Wagga Wagga, Katoomba, Maroochydore, Toowoomba, and that's just an infinitesimally small number of them. Hell, even our nation's and sixth largest overall city, capital, Canberra, has an Aboriginal name. And most of them have had these names since colonisation. And every major city has indigenous named suburbs too. Wollongong and Geelong are amongst the largest cities in the country, and Maroochydore is the name of the downtown area of a city that's just as large if not larger. Sydney's official second downtown area is named Parramatta CBD. And cities like Wollongong which already have an Indigenous name in and of themselves have even more I digenous suburb names in them. I don't know where you got the idea that we don't have Indigenous place names, but you're very, very wrong. The issue here is the equivalent of naming Palm Springs' Califoronia Amtrak station as "Sec-he" which is a nice gesture and all, and there will be whingers who oppose it on principal, but the other issue is most people wouldn't have any clue where Sec-he is and the station would do by being named "Palm Springs"
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:11 pm

Yeah, naming transit stops anything that isn't the name of the locality or a reference to a nearby major landmark is dumb. Especially when you sell naming rights, because in another ten years or so we're just going to get confused all over again...

As for renaming places, unless it's something ridiculously common like "Springfield" or "Washington Township" where there is legitimate confusion and people actually have to ask you which one, just don't, it's not worth the hassle.
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Durius
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Postby Durius » Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:50 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Durius wrote:What a worthless discussion. There is zero logical reason to oppose it.

Except wayfinding which I already explained

It is included in the zero logical reason, I stated.

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Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:14 am

Kerwa wrote:
Nyabo wrote:
Right. My goal was just to highlight the existence of these non-English place names in an ostensibly English-speaking country.


The UK does it too. Cheviot, for example, or Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. Neither are English.


True, but the historical process behind the use of a pre-English Celtic name for the Cheviots is arguably very different from the process of a post-colonial society deciding how to best use indigenous place names. You could argue that they both ultimately stem from a process of colonisation and appropriation, but the time depth of 'Cheviot' means it has a very different sociopolitical context. And it's not as if anyone (to the best of my knowledge) is running around proposing we anglicise every occurrence in England of 'River Avon' to 'River River' so we all stop using Brythonic indigenous names.

The modern Welsh example is arguably closer to the thread topic since the village previously (and still informally) known as 'Llanfairpwllgwyngyll' seems to have had its name deliberately and artificially lengthened in the 19th century to 'Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch' as a publicity stunt subsequently embraced by the local Welsh-speaking community.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:41 am

Durius wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Except wayfinding which I already explained

It is included in the zero logical reason, I stated.

Why? Why is wanting good wayfinding illogical?
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Durius
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Postby Durius » Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:11 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Durius wrote:It is included in the zero logical reason, I stated.

Why? Why is wanting good wayfinding illogical?

It's illogical to think people need to have dumbed down toponyms to find their way around.

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