EU Commission Forces Apple To Pay €13bn in Tax

[Chestaan]

In what has become quite a complicated story, the European Commission has found that the Irish Government granted Apple an illegal deal on the amount of tax it had to pay. The comission has ordered that Apple now must pay €13bn , or $14.5bn in back taxes to the Irish government plus interest.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0830/812819 ... x-ireland/

The Commission said "selective treatment" allowed Apple to pay tax rate of 1% on European Union profits in 2003 down to 0.005% in 2014.

Under EU rules such a deal that lowers the tax burden of one firm but not others amounts to illegal state aid. The Irish government has denied that any such deal was made with Apple and it intends to lodge an appeal.

I am frankly disgusted that my country has allowed such a massive and profitable corporation to pay such a tiny effective rate on their taxes, especially seeing as how we were in desperate need of extra revenue following the onset of the Great Recession and troika imposed austerity measures. It is despicable that the Irish government has put the desires of a multinational company before the needs of its people. Companies like Apple must be made to pay their fair share of taxation, and Ireland's corporate tax rate is already one of the lowest in the developed world at 12.5%. The government should do it's best to secure this tax money and should definitely not lodge an appeal. A full inquiry needs to be held to see which politicians have been aware of this illegal deal and they need to be punished to the full extent of the law.

This brings up several issues with regards to both the Irish government and Apple. Perhaps it is possible that Apple or other large corporations have such deals in other nations. Should such deals be legal in your opinion? Should the Irish government appeal the decision that provides them with €13bn? If it is found that an illegal tax deal was in place, what punishment, if any should government officials implicated in this deal face? Should an independent inquiry be held into possible illegal activity and corruption in successive Irish governments?

[Teemant]

These deals are made when countries want to attract large multinational companies. I mean we can't expect multinational companies to choose a location for no reason at all? It's not like Ireland is the only possible suitor for Apple in Europe and that's the reason why countries want to do these kinds of deals.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like these deals either but this is the reality we live in.

[Uxupox]

Time to leave Ireland.

[Chestaan]

These deals are made when countries want to attract large multinational companies. I mean we can't expect multinational companies to choose a location for no reason at all? It's not like Ireland is the only possible suitor for Apple in Europe and that's the reason why countries want to do these kinds of deals.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like these deals either but this is the reality we live in.

Ireland already has, as far as I know, the lowest corporate tax rate in the EU. It is illegal to favour individual companies over others, so if any nation wants to attract more companies through tax benefits it can lower it's corporate tax rate. But that shouldn't matter anyway, because Ireland already has a lower tax rate than the rest of the EU, not to mention a highly educated workforce.

[Ifreann]

Fighting against receiving a €13 billion payment is possibly the funniest thing this nation's government has ever done.

---

Time to leave Ireland.

Time for Apple to leave Ireland?

[Aelex]

Time to leave Ireland.

Eirexit, amirite?

[Chestaan]

Time to leave Ireland.

Ireland has such low taxes anyway that Apple is unlikely to get a better deal anywhere else in the EU.

Fighting against receiving a €13 billion payment is possibly the funniest thing this nation's government has ever done.

Really goes to show how strange the thought-process of many Irish politicians is.

[New Rogernomics]

What I also find amusing is that Ireland is going to try and appeal, and support Apple's tax evasion efforts.

Probably because they want to give more money to greedy corporations over you know...spending money on human beings or people in poverty.

Weird government these Irish have put in power, but not as weird as the US one though.

[Chestaan]

What I also find amusing is that Ireland is going to try and appeal, and support Apple's tax evasion efforts.

Probably because they want to give more money to greedy corporations over you know...spending money on human beings or people in poverty.

Weird government these Irish have put in power, but not as weird as the US one though.

I think the reasoning behind it is that the government are denying that any tax deal exists. They also don't want the negative publicity of a large corporation having to cough up a large sum of money.

Of course it's all corrupt and the government politicians are a massive bunch of wankers but when a government is that corrupt and in that deep with big business interest, decisions like this unfortunately make sense.

[New Rogernomics]

What I also find amusing is that Ireland is going to try and appeal, and support Apple's tax evasion efforts.

Probably because they want to give more money to greedy corporations over you know...spending money on human beings or people in poverty.

Weird government these Irish have put in power, but not as weird as the US one though.

I think the reasoning behind it is that the government are denying that any tax deal exists. They also don't want the negative publicity of a large corporation having to cough up a large sum of money.

Of course it's all corrupt and the government politicians are a massive bunch of wankers but when a government is that corrupt and in that deep with big business interest, decisions like this unfortunately make sense.

For sure. They rail against the lower-income or middle-class person who struggles to pay their taxes. But when it comes to the super-rich or corporations, the Irish government display their double-standards, and attempt to look the other way - for a quick buck or to hide their own corrupt dealings as politicians no doubt. It is disgusting from an ethical standpoint, but I am sure they will get away with it eventually.

[Ifreann]

Time to leave Ireland.

Ireland has such low taxes anyway that Apple is unlikely to get a better deal anywhere else in the EU.

Fighting against receiving a €13 billion payment is possibly the funniest thing this nation's government has ever done.

Really goes to show how strange the thought-process of many Irish politicians is.

I mean, it makes sense that they don't want Apple leaving for Germany, or wherever, and don't want to admit to having given Apple a sweet tax deal. But still, funny shit.

Oh, I get it! It's like when someone offers you a cup of tea, you have to say no the first time.

[Farnhamia]

In what has become quite a complicated story, the European Commission has found that the Irish Government granted Apple an illegal deal on the amount of tax it had to pay. The comission has ordered that Apple now must pay €13bn , or $14.5bn in back taxes to the Irish government plus interest.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0830/812819 ... x-ireland/

The Commission said "selective treatment" allowed Apple to pay tax rate of 1% on European Union profits in 2003 down to 0.005% in 2014.

Under EU rules such a deal that lowers the tax burden of one firm but not others amounts to illegal state aid. The Irish government has denied that any such deal was made with Apple and it intends to lodge an appeal.

I am frankly disgusted that my country has allowed such a massive and profitable corporation to pay such a tiny effective rate on their taxes, especially seeing as how we were in desperate need of extra revenue following the onset of the Great Recession and troika imposed austerity measures. It is despicable that the Irish government has put the desires of a multinational company before the needs of its people. Companies like Apple must be made to pay their fair share of taxation, and Ireland's corporate tax rate is already one of the lowest in the developed world at 12.5%. The government should do it's best to secure this tax money and should definitely not lodge an appeal. A full inquiry needs to be held to see which politicians have been aware of this illegal deal and they need to be punished to the full extent of the law.

As written, this is nothing more than a blog post. How about touching it up with some points for discussion? So far all I see in the thread is "OMG, the Irish gummint is corrupt."

[Chestaan]

In what has become quite a complicated story, the European Commission has found that the Irish Government granted Apple an illegal deal on the amount of tax it had to pay. The comission has ordered that Apple now must pay €13bn , or $14.5bn in back taxes to the Irish government plus interest.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0830/812819 ... x-ireland/



Under EU rules such a deal that lowers the tax burden of one firm but not others amounts to illegal state aid. The Irish government has denied that any such deal was made with Apple and it intends to lodge an appeal.

I am frankly disgusted that my country has allowed such a massive and profitable corporation to pay such a tiny effective rate on their taxes, especially seeing as how we were in desperate need of extra revenue following the onset of the Great Recession and troika imposed austerity measures. It is despicable that the Irish government has put the desires of a multinational company before the needs of its people. Companies like Apple must be made to pay their fair share of taxation, and Ireland's corporate tax rate is already one of the lowest in the developed world at 12.5%. The government should do it's best to secure this tax money and should definitely not lodge an appeal. A full inquiry needs to be held to see which politicians have been aware of this illegal deal and they need to be punished to the full extent of the law.

As written, this is nothing more than a blog post. How about touching it up with some points for discussion? So far all I see in the thread is "OMG, the Irish gummint is corrupt."

I would have thought the questions this raises would have been obvious but I have added another paragraph. Is it sufficient?

[Ifreann]

In what has become quite a complicated story, the European Commission has found that the Irish Government granted Apple an illegal deal on the amount of tax it had to pay. The comission has ordered that Apple now must pay €13bn , or $14.5bn in back taxes to the Irish government plus interest.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0830/812819 ... x-ireland/



Under EU rules such a deal that lowers the tax burden of one firm but not others amounts to illegal state aid. The Irish government has denied that any such deal was made with Apple and it intends to lodge an appeal.

I am frankly disgusted that my country has allowed such a massive and profitable corporation to pay such a tiny effective rate on their taxes, especially seeing as how we were in desperate need of extra revenue following the onset of the Great Recession and troika imposed austerity measures. It is despicable that the Irish government has put the desires of a multinational company before the needs of its people. Companies like Apple must be made to pay their fair share of taxation, and Ireland's corporate tax rate is already one of the lowest in the developed world at 12.5%. The government should do it's best to secure this tax money and should definitely not lodge an appeal. A full inquiry needs to be held to see which politicians have been aware of this illegal deal and they need to be punished to the full extent of the law.

As written, this is nothing more than a blog post. How about touching it up with some points for discussion? So far all I see in the thread is "OMG, the Irish gummint is corrupt."

If anything, this is reverse corruption. Instead of taking money on the sly, they're refusing legitimate money.

[Thermodolia]

As written, this is nothing more than a blog post. How about touching it up with some points for discussion? So far all I see in the thread is "OMG, the Irish gummint is corrupt."

If anything, this is reverse corruption. Instead of taking money on the sly, they're refusing legitimate money.

Probably because they don't want to be seen as corrupt or taking a hand out

[Farnhamia]

As written, this is nothing more than a blog post. How about touching it up with some points for discussion? So far all I see in the thread is "OMG, the Irish gummint is corrupt."

I would have thought the questions this raises would have been obvious but I have added another paragraph. Is it sufficient?

Nothing is obvious here. And yes, much better.

[Galloism]

Ok, so that everyone knows what's going on, Apple had established what was called a double Irish with a dutch sandwich.

The details are very complicated, but basically, by they could establish that all their profits were Irish profits in one country, but not Irish profits in Ireland, and therefore pay little to no tax. Ireland closed the loophole that caused this, but allowed companies with established double irish plans to continue to use it (and get the benefits thereof) until 2020.

This was merely a shifting of money around on paper and had no particular financial or economic consequence. It was merely to evade tax.

This probably wouldn't have drawn EU commission ire EXCEPT for the grandfather clause to 2020. Now new companies can't effectively compete on the same level against established companies who were already avoiding the tax. This was then considered a state subsidy because it was effectively favoring some companies over others.

Now, they've gone back even before the change in law, but that is largely because non-tech companies or tech companies without legal teams the size of Paris couldn't use it, and this set them at a competitive disadvantage.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

These deals are made when countries want to attract large multinational companies. I mean we can't expect multinational companies to choose a location for no reason at all? It's not like Ireland is the only possible suitor for Apple in Europe and that's the reason why countries want to do these kinds of deals.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like these deals either but this is the reality we live in.

It's cronyism, and undermines the independence of the state from corporate influence.
Chestaan, is Eire in the midst of a caretaker government or have things changed? Either way fuck this corrupt government.

[Geilinor]

Time to leave Ireland.

They would have to leave the EU entirely. Not happening.

[Chestaan]

These deals are made when countries want to attract large multinational companies. I mean we can't expect multinational companies to choose a location for no reason at all? It's not like Ireland is the only possible suitor for Apple in Europe and that's the reason why countries want to do these kinds of deals.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like these deals either but this is the reality we live in.

It's cronyism, and undermines the independence of the state from corporate influence.
Chestaan, is Eire in the midst of a caretaker government or have things changed? Either way fuck this corrupt government.

A minority government has been formed. So one party, backed up by independents are in control despite not having a majority of seats. They have a deal with one of the opposition parties that they will not vote against them for at least three years. It's quite unstable.

[Ifreann]

It's cronyism, and undermines the independence of the state from corporate influence.
Chestaan, is Eire in the midst of a caretaker government or have things changed? Either way fuck this corrupt government.

A minority government has been formed. So one party, backed up by independents are in control despite not having a majority of seats. They have a deal with one of the opposition parties that they will not vote against them for at least three years. It's quite unstable.

And this was the best they could do after months of wrangling.

[Chestaan]

Ok, so that everyone knows what's going on, Apple had established what was called a double Irish with a dutch sandwich.

The details are very complicated, but basically, by they could establish that all their profits were Irish profits in one country, but not Irish profits in Ireland, and therefore pay little to no tax. Ireland closed the loophole that caused this, but allowed companies with established double irish plans to continue to use it (and get the benefits thereof) until 2020.

This was merely a shifting of money around on paper and had no particular financial or economic consequence. It was merely to evade tax.

This probably wouldn't have drawn EU commission ire EXCEPT for the grandfather clause to 2020. Now new companies can't effectively compete on the same level against established companies who were already avoiding the tax. This was then considered a state subsidy because it was effectively favoring some companies over others.

Now, they've gone back even before the change in law, but that is largely because non-tech companies or tech companies without legal teams the size of Paris couldn't use it, and this set them at a competitive disadvantage.

I've also heard something about Apple having registered a company that doesn't have any real location. They routed their profits through this non-existent company which doesn't have to pay taxes as its not resident in any country. Is that the case or have I taken it up wrong?

[Risottia]

Of course it's all corrupt and the government politicians are a massive bunch of wankers but when a government is that corrupt and in that deep with big business interest, decisions like this unfortunately make sense.

Especially when you think of the recent troubles the Irish gov't had with its own coffers... This stinks.
Maybe the other EU members, those who don't run tax scams (yeah, Luxembourg, I'm looking at you) should get compensation from Ireland for unfair competition.

[Risottia]

Time to leave Ireland.

They would have to leave the EU entirely. Not happening.

Unless they want to join the United Kingdom again.

...

Ok, you may laugh now. What do you mean by "we were already"?

[Chestaan]

Of course it's all corrupt and the government politicians are a massive bunch of wankers but when a government is that corrupt and in that deep with big business interest, decisions like this unfortunately make sense.

Especially when you think of the recent troubles the Irish gov't had with its own coffers... This stinks.
Maybe the other EU members, those who don't run tax scams (yeah, Luxembourg, I'm looking at you) should get compensation from Ireland for unfair competition.

I would point out that the recent trouble Ireland had in it's coffers is due to the bank debt that Ireland had to pay back. Also, other countries in the EU along with the United States are allowed to make their case for why they should get a share of the €13bn.

Anyway, I don't think punishing the people of Ireland for what the government has been doing behind closed doors will do much for promoting European unity.