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Was Imperial or Nazi Germany stronger?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Which one was stronger?

Kaiserreich
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39%
Fuhrereich
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34%
Merkelreich
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Great Feng
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Was Imperial or Nazi Germany stronger?

Postby Great Feng » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:58 pm

It is difficult to explain what I am saying.
I'll do my best.
Nazis Germany nearly conquered the world in WW2 and everyone agrees it was extremely powerful. However, I look back to WW1 and am more impressed with Imperial Germany than Nazi Germany.
They fought a war on two fronts at the very start rather than halfway, and did very well against Russia and France and fought the UK, France, Russia, Belgium, and other nations all at once and despite being heavily outnumbered and never taking Paris, managed to deal them several crushing defeats and drag their enemies down and nearly shattered the French Army and the French morale during the war was overall low, same with Russian morale. Germany was arguably the only competent military power that had good enough generals on it's side to win great victories. It provided a great deal of officers and troops to Austria-Hungary, the Turks, and maybe even the Serbs. Germany fought what some considered the three strongest nations at once for 4 years and kept them at bay and came close to winning several times during the war, including during the Ludendorff Offensive, Battle of the Marne, Verdun, etc.
The majority of brilliant victories was thanks to German troops and/or staff, and the Turks and Austro-Hungarians relied heavily on Germany to help them in their wars. While the allies certainly had incompetent leaders the central powers were often driven back more than allied powers except when german generals or troops helped them. WW1 Germany overall fought against greater odds for it's day, and was able to win a war that would normally be suicide for any other country of that period even if it was UK or France in it's place they would have fared more poorly than Germany did with the same allies and same enemies.
Now Nazi Germany has some impressive feats-Beating France, Yugoslavia, the Low Countries, and Greece all within a month of when they started their invasion of each country. But They had better odds due to having more allies like Hungary and Romania as well as Bulgaria, Italy, and Imperial Japan. While Italy in both world wars were incompetent, Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria in WW2 were actually passable allies, better in track record than Austria, Turkey, and Bulgaria.
And if you had put Imperial Germany in the same WW2 style situation they likely would have succeeded. WW2 Germany's generals often came from the old Imperial Germany but they had learned new tactics. The WW1 German High Command would have won against the USSR due to a better strategy than Hitler, and WW1 Germany had overall the better strategists, and these strategists were passed on to WW2 Germany when WW2 started.

Now let us look at the tech differences. Nazi and Imperial Germany were both extremely industrialized and technologically advanced for their days, but, for the time, I'd say Imperial Germany was slightly more advanced for it's day in terms of war technology.
Thoughts/agree/disagree?

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Threeman
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Postby Threeman » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:00 pm

Obviously the Third Rich was stronger as it was the greatest nation on Earth and was the greatest nation this world has ever seen.

Plus, the second Rich had some (((problems)))

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Aelex
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Postby Aelex » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:06 pm

Imperial Germany was theoretically stronger, without a doubt. Nazi Germany was however luckier and more able to exploit all the latent capacity it had to an extent Imperial Germany didn't reached.
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Quokkastan
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Postby Quokkastan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:14 pm

Let me just stop you at "Nazis Germany nearly conquered the world in WW2"

No. They didn't.
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The balkens
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Postby The balkens » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:15 pm

Imperial Germany.

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Ceannairceach
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Postby Ceannairceach » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:22 pm

Quokkastan wrote:Let me just stop you at "Nazis Germany nearly conquered the world in WW2"

No. They didn't.

They did maintain a state stretching from the Atlantic coast of France to the gates of Moscow. Now it is certainly debatable how much of that they seriously controlled - I tend towards the notion that they actually governed little more than the ground their solders were standing on - but the Third Reich was a very serious threat during it's heyday, even if it turned out to be mostly a paper tiger.

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Quokkastan
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Postby Quokkastan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:22 pm

Ceannairceach wrote:
Quokkastan wrote:Let me just stop you at "Nazis Germany nearly conquered the world in WW2"

No. They didn't.

They did maintain a state stretching from the Atlantic coast of France to the gates of Moscow. Now it is certainly debatable how much of that they seriously controlled - I tend towards the notion that they actually governed little more than the ground their solders were standing on - but the Third Reich was a very serious threat during it's heyday, even if it turned out to be mostly a paper tiger.

If Nazi Germany counts as "nearly conquering the world" then Napoleon conquered it.
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:25 pm

Quokkastan wrote:
Ceannairceach wrote:They did maintain a state stretching from the Atlantic coast of France to the gates of Moscow. Now it is certainly debatable how much of that they seriously controlled - I tend towards the notion that they actually governed little more than the ground their solders were standing on - but the Third Reich was a very serious threat during it's heyday, even if it turned out to be mostly a paper tiger.

If Nazi Germany counts as "nearly conquering the world" then Napoleon conquered it.


A shit ton of people didn't face extinction when Napoleon went around conquering things.
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Ceannairceach
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Postby Ceannairceach » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:26 pm

Quokkastan wrote:
Ceannairceach wrote:They did maintain a state stretching from the Atlantic coast of France to the gates of Moscow. Now it is certainly debatable how much of that they seriously controlled - I tend towards the notion that they actually governed little more than the ground their solders were standing on - but the Third Reich was a very serious threat during it's heyday, even if it turned out to be mostly a paper tiger.

If Nazi Germany counts as "nearly conquering the world" then Napoleon conquered it.

Did Napoleon align himself with an Asiatic world power that threatened to swallow up East Asia, as well as another European power to subdue Africa? Sure, Hitler was a dreamer if he thought that the Axis could overtake the industrial might of the Allies and the USSR, but that doesn't mean he didn't threaten world conquest.

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Quokkastan
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Postby Quokkastan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:27 pm

Uxupox wrote:
Quokkastan wrote:If Nazi Germany counts as "nearly conquering the world" then Napoleon conquered it.


A shit ton of people didn't face extinction when Napoleon went around conquering things.

I wasn't aware that was the definition of conquering.

Genghis still has 'em beat.

Timur too.
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Postby Anarchist Heathenry » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:28 pm

In come the Wehraboos.
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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:29 pm

Quokkastan wrote:
Uxupox wrote:
A shit ton of people didn't face extinction when Napoleon went around conquering things.

I wasn't aware that was the definition of conquering.

Genghis still has 'em beat.

Timur too.


Not a definition but definitely one of the prerequisites in the old age.
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Xadufell
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Postby Xadufell » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:29 pm

Anarchist Heathenry wrote:In come the Wehraboos.


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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:29 pm

Quokkastan wrote:Let me just stop you at "Nazis Germany nearly conquered the world in WW2"

No. They didn't.

They didn't even succeed in conquering Europe.

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Grand Britannia
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Postby Grand Britannia » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:29 pm

The HRE.
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:30 pm

Grand Britannia wrote:The HRE.


Good riddance on that broken state.
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Postby Bakery Hill » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:30 pm

Who cares they both fucking lost.
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The Romulan Republic
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Postby The Romulan Republic » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:30 pm

Imperial Germany lasted longer, and didn't leave their country actually partitioned between other powers.

So Imperial Germany.
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Quokkastan
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Postby Quokkastan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:31 pm

Ceannairceach wrote:
Quokkastan wrote:If Nazi Germany counts as "nearly conquering the world" then Napoleon conquered it.

Did Napoleon align himself with an Asiatic world power that threatened to swallow up East Asia, as well as another European power to subdue Africa? Sure, Hitler was a dreamer if he thought that the Axis could overtake the industrial might of the Allies and the USSR, but that doesn't mean he didn't threaten world conquest.

Notably, when you ally yourself with someone else who conquers something, you haven't conquered it. Further, Italy didn't subdue Africa, and Japan didn't subdue even just China.
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Ikania
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Postby Ikania » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:32 pm

Nazi Germany certainly had more regional influence and power projection over Europe as a whole. No other country save the Soviets could just wanton invade whatever they wanted and have no one lift a finger until the third country.

The Kaiserreich was more influential on the global scale. It had African colonies and I believe possessions in China from the Boxer War, maybe before that. It was an actual colonial power, unlike Hitler's Germany. Of course, this was more of a strength for Hitler, as he had no international possessions to worry about when fighting the war. Just Deutschland.
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Quokkastan
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Postby Quokkastan » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:32 pm

Uxupox wrote:
Quokkastan wrote:I wasn't aware that was the definition of conquering.

Genghis still has 'em beat.

Timur too.


Not a definition but definitely one of the prerequisites in the old age.

I guess someone forgot to tell the Achaemenids.
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Aelex
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Postby Aelex » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:33 pm

Anarchist Heathenry wrote:In come the Wehraboos.

Image
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Postby Greater Orensta » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:35 pm

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Xadufell
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Postby Xadufell » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:35 pm

Aelex wrote:
Anarchist Heathenry wrote:In come the Wehraboos.

Image


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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:41 pm

Ceannairceach wrote:
Quokkastan wrote:If Nazi Germany counts as "nearly conquering the world" then Napoleon conquered it.

Did Napoleon align himself with an Asiatic world power that threatened to swallow up East Asia, as well as another European power to subdue Africa? Sure, Hitler was a dreamer if he thought that the Axis could overtake the industrial might of the Allies and the USSR, but that doesn't mean he didn't threaten world conquest.

"subdue Africa"?
You've been playing too much HOI4 I reckon, fascist Italy wasn't anywhere near that competent.

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