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Preventing murder. New ideas?

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AiliailiA
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Preventing murder. New ideas?

Postby AiliailiA » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:06 am

I was writing up a reply for another thread (a thread about whether a certain investigative method was justified to identify the perpetrator of a murder). I wrote and wrote for about a thousand words, until I realized I'd gone way off the topic. Apparently I had more to say about preventing murder, than punishing murderers. And not much at all to say about the methods of investigation.

It seems I care a lot more about preventing murder than punishing murderers. What a lily-livered little liberal I am.

The detection and prosecution of murder is certainly one way of preventing murder. It doesn't prevent that particular murder of course, but the high probability of an investigation by police and (lower, but still quite high) probability of conviction and punishment by judiciary, demonstrates to anyone considering the act of murder that they will very likely suffer for it. Punishment of today's crime by person A, puts the fear of punishment on person B who may be considering the same crime. It's a disincentive (though not a certain one) disincentives are effective just as incentives (though uncertain) are effective at changing behaviour.

OK, so punishment and the threat of punishment and the carrying through of the threat of punishment, do reduce the incidence of murder. There is much debate about how harsh the punishments should be, and what the standard of proof should be, but obviously no amount of punishment and no certainty of punishment will reduce the murder rate much more than the already harsh punishments and already high conviction rates for murder.

What other strategies could government pursue to reduce the incidence of murder?

I'm a bit shocked to discover how little I know about the causes of murder. I've been reading, but all I get is that people of low intelligence or with mental health problems are more likely to commit murder, poor people or people living in poor neighbourhoods are more likely to commit murder, and people who are socially isolated (not necessarily poor or with mental problems) are also likely to commit murder.

So there's a broad socialist agenda of reducing social and economic inequality, providing health care which includes mental health care as a matter of course, and government support of all kinds of clubs and community initiatives which might help estranged individuals reconnect with society. I'll put that as my method to prevent murders. It goes far beyond that purpose of course, and requires far more intervention by government than a strategy purely to reduce the rate of murder.

Perhaps you smart people can suggest a more targeted way to prevent murders, which doesn't involve harsher punishments after the fact, doesn't require government to tackle a much wider social problem, and doesn't require every citizen to be fitted with a tracking/immobilization collar at birth?
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Project Book
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Postby Project Book » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:14 am

So there's a broad socialist agenda of reducing social and economic inequality, providing health care which includes mental health care as a matter of course, and government support of all kinds of clubs and community initiatives which might help estranged individuals reconnect with society. I'll put that as my method to prevent murders.


I cry.

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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:22 am

Project Book wrote:
So there's a broad socialist agenda of reducing social and economic inequality, providing health care which includes mental health care as a matter of course, and government support of all kinds of clubs and community initiatives which might help estranged individuals reconnect with society. I'll put that as my method to prevent murders.


I cry.


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AiliailiA
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Postby AiliailiA » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:39 am

Project Book wrote:
So there's a broad socialist agenda of reducing social and economic inequality, providing health care which includes mental health care as a matter of course, and government support of all kinds of clubs and community initiatives which might help estranged individuals reconnect with society. I'll put that as my method to prevent murders.


I cry.


USS Monitor wrote:
Project Book wrote:
I cry.


Crying is normal and healthy. Don't be afraid to show your emotions.


Emotions are allowed. Ideas as preferable.
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Pranovia
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Postby Pranovia » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:48 am

Usually, I'm an advocate of death penalty, but as for prevention measures, I have lots of decent ideas.

Maybe encourage people to make friends within their community, so that they will have someone to talk to and get advice from when he/she has a problem.
Encourage stronger family ties.
Change school hours and desk job hours to 9am to 3pm
A welfare policy for those lacking money
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:55 am

The US legal system sometimes rewards killing someone as it is currently. If a threatening person is breaking and entering into my home, should I merely wound them they can bring forth a lawsuit. If I don't hold back in using lethal force, if they're dead- my only concern then, may be whether or not a court will find the homicide to be justified or not. If so, then that is the end of my troubles so far as that incident goes.

The incentive is clearly not to use a less than lethal approach if you stand to lose more from doing so.
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Imperial States America
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Postby Imperial States America » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:59 am

Sorry to say but as long as humans exist on this planet murder will always happen theirs no no stopping it.

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Postby Vassenor » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:05 am

Imperial States America wrote:Sorry to say but as long as humans exist on this planet murder will always happen theirs no no stopping it.


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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:12 am

I was listening to a freakonomics podcast yesterday about using cognitive behavior therapy on at risk youth to help them develop the skills they need to have a less violent more productive life.

that's my choice.


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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:13 am

Well, it kind of depends on the murder really. People murder for different reasons, and in different patterns depending on the country they live in.

In the country where I live (UK) the latest figures I can easily access are from 2013 and 2012. Patterns seem to have been fairly stable across these years for the most part. What seems interesting is that there were about 514 murders. Of those, you're looking at about 6% being gun related.

There are some key patterns to take from this. Firstly, about 2/3rds of murder victims are men. Stabbing is a predominantly high issue here, with knives being involved in a significant amount of these cases.

The second trend worth noting is the amount of women killed due to domestic violence, by a current or ex partner - over 100 (figures are not 100% exact - the closest I could find was 112)

Thirdly, whilst it's still the case that most murder victims know their killer, men are more likely to be killed by a friend or acquaintance, women were much more likely to be killed by a partner or ex partner. Women were also less likely to be killed by a stranger.

Another trend is that those under the age of 16 are most likely to be killed by a parent or step-parent.

So what can be taken from this? Well, there seems to be a downward trend in murders (which is good). I imagine that policies that tackle domestic violence, through providing financial and psychological help for victims or enforcing court orders would be a start. Policies that work towards discouraging people from carrying knives would be a decent idea too.

TL:DR - You need to break murder down a bit, there's so many different motives.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:52 am

Put everybody in Iron Man suits so we can't murder each other.

Cons: Might be expensive. Might require technology that doesn't exist.
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:08 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)

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Keynsinia
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Postby Keynsinia » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:10 am

We need to end poverty, which is the root cause of all crime. Basic income, public housing, whatever it takes.
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:11 am

if we make murder illegal then only the outlaws will have murder
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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:12 am

Alyakia wrote:if we make murder illegal then only the outlaws will have murder

Not if the pre crime has anything to say about it.
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Modern Otaku
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Postby Modern Otaku » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:15 am

I cold use the help to prevent more murders her in Modern Otaku

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The Hobbesian Metaphysician
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Postby The Hobbesian Metaphysician » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:16 am

Modern Otaku wrote:I cold use the help to prevent more murders her in Modern Otaku

My universal translator seems to be broken. Do you speak english by chance?
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Imperium Sidhicum
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Postby Imperium Sidhicum » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:40 am

Well, the OP's ideas of social welfare and rehabilitation might prevent murders committed in the process of economic crimes, such as botched thefts and armed robberies, but it will do nothing to prevent crimes of passion, which a lot of murders are. Most murders aren't in fact premeditated and occur spontaneously, without previous intent - an argument taking a violent turn, a burglar being caught by the owner of the house, etc.

The threat of punishment will not deter, for example, a man who comes home to catch his wife in bed with a lover and decides to murder them both in rage. In such situations, potential future consequences simply don't register on a man's mind as he acts on impulse.

Likewise, it will not deter premeditated murders, say, a businessman deciding to kill a dishonest partner for failure to repay a large debt, ones which are carefully planned with special attention paid to evading justice afterwards.

---

Hence I think that the OP's suggested approach would only serve to reduce violent crime among the poor and disenfranchised.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:18 am

Modern Otaku wrote:I cold use the help to prevent more murders her in Modern Otaku


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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:37 am

OP, you are taking a very Marxist view of crime, where crime is a response to social conditions and conditioning, and in a truly egalitarian society crime would go away as the reasons to be criminal would be alleviated.

I just don't think that view is correct, you may stop people from committing crime to eat, but I don't think that is the driving factor of crime, criminals come from all claases, bernie madoff, didn't need the extra money, the Mendez brothers had plenty of money. I think the goal to prevent murder is a good one. I just don't think it's all economic.
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:41 am

The easiest way to prevent murders would be immortality.
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Postby Shamhnan Insir » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:44 am

Keynsinia wrote:We need to end poverty, which is the root cause of all crime. Basic income, public housing, whatever it takes.

Nope.
Possibly conceptions of poverty have a hand in influencing crime but it's by far not the "root cause of all crime".
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:44 am

The reality is one can't prevent murderers. I'd say the best way to prevent is to make humans effectively immortal.
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:45 am

Ethel mermania wrote:OP, you are taking a very Marxist view of crime, where crime is a response to social conditions and conditioning, and in a truly egalitarian society crime would go away as the reasons to be criminal would be alleviated.

I just don't think that view is correct, you may stop people from committing crime to eat, but I don't think that is the driving factor of crime, criminals come from all claases, bernie madoff, didn't need the extra money, the Mendez brothers had plenty of money. I think the goal to prevent murder is a good one. I just don't think it's all economic.


To be completely fair, a Marxist analysis of crime would most definitely fit with Bernie Madoff's crimes. He committed those crimes (in part) because the system he lived in and under rewards and actively encourages people to make vast amounts of profit at the expense of others.
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The Foxes Swamp
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Postby The Foxes Swamp » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:49 am

death is so permanent, so the punishment needs to be brutal and more horrific than the crime, if you murder anyone intentionally you should have the right to nothing except the knowledge that by the time we kill you for your crime you will know what pain is.
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