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Slavery is ok when...

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Xerographica
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Slavery is ok when...

Postby Xerographica » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:14 am

It's ok to kill intruders... but it's not ok to enslave them. For some reason this seems a bit... strange. I'm not exactly sure why though. Maybe it's because it doesn't seem like a significant amount of slaves have committed suicide. Evidently slavery was preferable to death in most circumstances.

I'm going to blame John Locke for this line of thinking. A while back I read The Two Treatises of Civil Government. I can't remember exactly what he wrote but it was something about it being acceptable to enslave anybody who attacks you. For some reason this struck me as fairly reasonable. If it's acceptable to kill your attacker... then it would seem acceptable to enslave them. Just like if it's acceptable to use a real gun then it should be acceptable to use a stun gun.

Personally, if I broke into somebody's home and the owner gave me the choice between death and slavery... I think I'd want to know what the slavery would entail. Wouldn't you? Or perhaps you would shout... "Give me liberty or give me death!"

I'm hardly a scholar of slavery but I'm under the impression that it's a continuum. The issue is how much control you personally have over your resources (broadly defined). I think 100% slavery is virtually impossible. For all intents and purposes you'd be a perfect marionette. Even your thoughts would be controlled by your owner. I think that 0% slavery is virtually impossible as well. I don't think you can have perfect control over your resources.

What percentage slavery would prisoners be considered? Or soldiers? Should people have the freedom to sell themselves into slavery? I think so. One argument that I've heard against it is that people might regret their decision. Well... then people shouldn't have the freedom to join the military. Plenty of people have really regretted joining the military. A few have regretted it so much that they've committed suicide.

The problem with unjustified slavery is that it diminishes difference. Less difference means less progress.
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Lucipurr
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Postby Lucipurr » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:15 am

Slavery is not okay at all.
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Val Halla
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Postby Val Halla » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:17 am

Lucipurr wrote:Slavery is not okay at all.

Unless it's with consent?
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Vektra
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Postby Vektra » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:17 am

Slavery is not okay. We can discuss about killing intruders, but not about slavery.

Think it by yourself... what do you prefer? Living as a slave, or die as a free man?

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Empire of Donner land
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Postby Empire of Donner land » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:17 am

Just ask the African American Slaves in the 17th to 19th centurys. Slavery is worse than death.
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Lucipurr
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Postby Lucipurr » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:17 am

Val Halla wrote:
Lucipurr wrote:Slavery is not okay at all.

Unless it's with consent?


Who in the right mind would consent to slavery? Except the BDSM types, of course.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:18 am

Xerographica wrote:I can't remember exactly what he wrote but it was something about it being acceptable to enslave anybody who attacks you. For some reason this struck me as fairly reasonable. If it's acceptable to kill your attacker... then it would seem acceptable to enslave them

Then your reasoning is entirely faulty.

For one, the use of lethal force is ostensibly as a defensive measure. If you have caused your assailant to surrender, you have defended yourself sufficiently.
"Enslaving" them is you seeking your own recompense after the fact.
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Bezkoshtovnya
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Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:21 am

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Zaldakki
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Postby Zaldakki » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:22 am

Lucipurr wrote:
Val Halla wrote:Unless it's with consent?


Who in the right mind would consent to slavery? Except the BDSM types, of course.

Even then, then there are safe words, so they're still not consenting to true slavery.
Last edited by Zaldakki on Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lucipurr
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Postby Lucipurr » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:23 am

Zaldakki wrote:
Lucipurr wrote:
Who in the right mind would consent to slavery? Except the BDSM types, of course.

Even then, then there are safe words, so they're still not consenting to true slavery.


Exactly.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:24 am

Empire of Donner land wrote:Slavery is worse than death.


It doesn't have to be but it is pretty bad because masters were cruel more often than not and had far too much control over the slaves' fate. I'd choose to do unpaid labor for a limited time provided it is better than the alternative, but very rarely would this be the case.
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We Couldnt Agree On A Name
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Postby We Couldnt Agree On A Name » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:24 am

Killing intruders is okay because it's not a punishment, it's self defense.
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Korhal IVV
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Postby Korhal IVV » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:24 am

Slavery may be ok when the slaves are treated nicely.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:26 am

Slavery is ok when it allows me to shop cheaply at Walmart or Primark.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:29 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Xerographica wrote:I can't remember exactly what he wrote but it was something about it being acceptable to enslave anybody who attacks you. For some reason this struck me as fairly reasonable. If it's acceptable to kill your attacker... then it would seem acceptable to enslave them

Then your reasoning is entirely faulty.

For one, the use of lethal force is ostensibly as a defensive measure. If you have caused your assailant to surrender, you have defended yourself sufficiently.
"Enslaving" them is you seeking your own recompense after the fact.

The intruder chooses to risk his life by breaking into your house. Unless he's insane... he knows that he could either end up dead or imprisoned. I don't see the issue with adding "being enslaved" to the list of potential outcomes. Do you think more people will break into homes if they know that they could end up as a slave?
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Lucipurr
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Postby Lucipurr » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:31 am

Xerographica wrote: Do you think more people will break into homes if they know that they could end up as a slave?


I don't think it would make the slightest of dent in the number of break-ins, however I do think you would have cops snooping around your house since, you know, slavery is illegal right now.
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Bezkoshtovnya
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:31 am

Xerographica wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Then your reasoning is entirely faulty.

For one, the use of lethal force is ostensibly as a defensive measure. If you have caused your assailant to surrender, you have defended yourself sufficiently.
"Enslaving" them is you seeking your own recompense after the fact.

The intruder chooses to risk his life by breaking into your house. Unless he's insane... he knows that he could either end up dead or imprisoned. I don't see the issue with adding "being enslaved" to the list of potential outcomes. Do you think more people will break into homes if they know that they could end up as a slave?

You do not see the issue with the fact that this is somehow grounds for the intruder now to turn in his status as a person and citizen to become property devoid of rights?
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Korhal IVV
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Postby Korhal IVV » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:35 am

The Alma Mater wrote:Slavery is ok when it allows me to shop cheaply at Walmart or Primark.

What. The. Hell.
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Lucipurr
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Postby Lucipurr » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:36 am

Korhal IVV wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Slavery is ok when it allows me to shop cheaply at Walmart or Primark.

What. The. Hell.


Pretty sure he was joking.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:36 am

Lucipurr wrote:
Xerographica wrote: Do you think more people will break into homes if they know that they could end up as a slave?


I don't think it would make the slightest of dent in the number of break-ins, however I do think you would have cops snooping around your house since, you know, slavery is illegal right now.

If potentially ending up as a slave wouldn't put a dent in the number of break-ins then how bad could slavery, on average, be? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:36 am

Empire of Donner land wrote:Just ask the African American Slaves in the 17th to 19th centurys. Slavery is worse than death.


Really? Then why did they not commit suicide? Surely if slavery were worse than death, they'd have chosen death rather than continued living?

Furthermore, why would they bring children into the world knowing they'd live a life worse tan death? Remember that the slave trade to America was banned by the US Constitution, so the only reason the population of slaves continued was because they kept having kids.

I'm not saying slavery was good, it was absolutely horrible. But for the majority of slaves, it was seemingly preferable to death.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:37 am

Slavery is ok as long as there's an agreed upon safe word.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:37 am

Xerographica wrote:Do you think more people will break into homes if they know that they could end up as a slave?


The problem with slavery is that the value of manual labor has plummeted too far from technological change. It is generally more expensive to keep a person fed, clothed, trained, etc. than the revenue that a person could plausibly generate in unpaid labor. Which is the real reason why slavery is abolished asides from the fact that it is seen as profoundly immoral.

No one, asides from the truly wicked wants any slaves anymore.
Last edited by Saiwania on Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:38 am

Saiwania wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Do you think more people will break into homes if they know that they could end up as a slave?


The problem with slavery is that the value of manual labor has plummeted too far from technological change. It is generally more expensive to keep a person fed, clothed, trained, etc. than the revenue that a person could plausibly generate in unpaid labor. Which is the real reason why slavery is abolished asides from the fact that it is seen as profoundly immoral.


Which is why the Confederacy was so far along abolishing slavery.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
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