NATION

PASSWORD

General Assembly Proposal Coding

For discussing a long-overdue overhaul of the Assembly's legislative protocols.
User avatar
Golgothastan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1266
Founded: Mar 26, 2005
Ex-Nation

General Assembly Proposal Coding

Postby Golgothastan » Wed May 06, 2015 6:16 am

The proposal category system is an artificial barrier to participation in WA legislation. The categories limit what people can write about, and don't cover a full range of potential topics. They don't reflect the game stats particularly well. Sometimes resolution discussions seem to focus more on what the category is than the actual content of the proposal, and some categories are much more popular than others as a result: the mechanical constraints mean that it is literally impossible to, for example, write an economically beneficial environmental resolution. The categories don't map to international concerns: where is the development category, for example? And because players don't have access to game stats, and yet miscategorising a proposal is a rules violation, a system has been created where players have to try to guess what effect their proposals will have and are then punished when they guess wrongly.

A solution would be to simply abolish the category system, removing one layer of complexity from the rules and granting players more flexibility in what they write about. It would be replaced by a system of each resolution being assigned a set of custom stats at the time it passed. These stats would better reflect the text of the proposal to more accurately interact with the game stats. At the same time, it would allow people to concentrate on drafting good proposals and arguing the in-character benefits and defects of the legislation, not fretting over whether their proposal contains "enough Free Trade language" to justify its arbitrary category. Game stats that are not reflected by the current category system, such as unused government departments or industries, could also be included.

Such a system also has several drawbacks. The stats would have to be decided within 4 days, in time should the resolution pass - though in many cases, discussions can begin before then on seeing a promising draft emerge or a proposal submitted with a campaign, offering a bit more leeway. It would depend on the moderators, or issue editors, or players who could be trusted with the game stats, or some combination of them. Players won't know what stats effect resolutions will have - though it will usually be very obvious; resolution authors can easily make clear what stats effect they anticipate their proposal having, too - but then players don't know this when answering issues, either: the NS game stats have always been off limits to players.

Nonetheless, I don't believe the category system adds anything to the players' experience, and have suggested this idea as a way of concentrating on the aspect of the game that players can participate in - the proposal text - and removing an unnecessary rules complication.

User avatar
Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9987
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri May 08, 2015 5:58 pm

First round discussion bump.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri May 08, 2015 6:52 pm

Another drawback: there would still have to be rules about what content can be incorporated into proposals, and enforcement of those rules may prove even more difficult and likely to breed dispute than the current category system. I recall one proposal about nuclear energy that included a completely non-germane clause about nuclear disarmament. (Don't remember who it was - LAE? Could it have been that far back? Ye Gods.) Wouldn't proposals still have to be moderated to assure that proposals do not contain non-germane language - for example, an international toy drive that included a clause to remove all barriers on trade? :p
Last edited by Omigodtheykilledkenny on Fri May 08, 2015 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9987
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri May 08, 2015 6:53 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:Another drawback: there would still have to be rules about what content can be incorporated into proposals, and enforcement of those rules may prove even more difficult and likely to breed dispute than the current category system. I recall one proposal about nuclear energy that included a completely non-germane clause about nuclear disarmament. Wouldn't proposals still have to be moderated to assure that proposals do not contain non-germane language - for example, an international toy drive that included a clause to remove all barriers on trade? :p

I see nothing wrong with adding in riders like that actually, in my mind that is one of the advantages of the more fluid system.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri May 08, 2015 6:56 pm

So there's nothing wrong with a proposal to protect endangered species that also includes a clause that states by the way, all third-trimester abortions are banned? I'm not sure even the US Congress allows those types of shenanigans. What useful purpose would legalizing that sort of bullshit possibly serve?
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9987
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri May 08, 2015 7:00 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:So there's nothing wrong with a proposal to protect endangered species that also includes a clause that states by the way, all third-trimester abortions are banned? I'm not sure even the US Congress allows those types of shenanigans. What useful purpose would legalizing that sort of bullshit possibly serve?

The US Congress absolutely allows those types of shenanigans, and shenanigans are fun. Think about it, having a proposal opposed by delegates but appeasing them by adding in a rider allowing or banning X.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

User avatar
Flibbleites
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6569
Founded: Jan 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Flibbleites » Fri May 08, 2015 7:05 pm

I can see it now, the old "this proposal cures cancer" joke will now become an actual part of every proposal. :roll:

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Fri May 08, 2015 7:06 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:So there's nothing wrong with a proposal to protect endangered species that also includes a clause that states by the way, all third-trimester abortions are banned? I'm not sure even the US Congress allows those types of shenanigans. What useful purpose would legalizing that sort of bullshit possibly serve?

The US Congress absolutely allows those types of shenanigans.

Not Really, but your point about it being more fun is well taken. A lot of the fun has been sucked out of the GA lately.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9987
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri May 08, 2015 7:15 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:The US Congress absolutely allows those types of shenanigans.

Not Really, but your point about it being more fun is well taken. A lot of the fun has been sucked out of the GA lately.

Fair point, I'm probably thinking of some State legislature shenanigans that I heard of recently :p
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

User avatar
The Dark Star Republic
Senator
 
Posts: 4339
Founded: Oct 19, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Dark Star Republic » Sat May 09, 2015 12:50 am

(Just to be clear, I am also Golgothastan, but I'm not going to switch over accounts to post here.)
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:I recall one proposal about nuclear energy that included a completely non-germane clause about nuclear disarmament. (Don't remember who it was - LAE? Could it have been that far back? Ye Gods.)

Yes, it was L&E's Nuclear Responsibility proposal. But - that proposal wasn't declared illegal under the old system, either.
Last edited by The Dark Star Republic on Sat May 09, 2015 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Old Hope
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1332
Founded: Sep 21, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Old Hope » Sat May 09, 2015 5:20 am

I thought about a similar solution(sorry, I picked a wrong discussion for it, category)
However, I would prefer stats to be added before it goes to approval phase(without everyone knowing which ones, ofc). That would make sure that stats are allocated to a proposal, and it would prevent proposals going to vote in mere minutes without any chance for debate, campaigns, and a massive advantage for positive vote stacks.
And I mentioned another serious drawback of the current system: Those who look for the stats, get everything handed on a plate, and have no incentive to partipiciate in debate... or even look at the proposal!
Last edited by Old Hope on Sat May 09, 2015 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Imperium Anglorum wrote:The format wars are a waste of time.

User avatar
Mousebumples
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8623
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Mousebumples » Sat May 09, 2015 8:09 am

I know I haven't been authoring much recently, but I know that when I was a more active author, I liked the existing category system because it helped me focus my ideas and thoughts and write what I felt were more effective proposals.

Personally, I have no interest in issue authoring because I haven't the faintest clue where to even start with coming up with an idea. I think this sort of change would make the general assembly into more of "international issue authoring" rather than resolution writing. I don't want to speak for more active authors, but I don't know that that would engage my interest as much if I was just getting into this side of the game.
Leader of the Mouse-a-rific Mousetastic Moderator Mousedom of Mousebumples
Past WA Delegate for Europeia & Monkey Island
Proud Member of UNOG
I'm an "adorably marvelous NatSov" - Mallorea and Riva
GA Resolutions (sorted by category) | Why Repeal? | Reppy's Sig Workshop

User avatar
The Dark Star Republic
Senator
 
Posts: 4339
Founded: Oct 19, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Dark Star Republic » Sat May 09, 2015 8:31 am

Mousebumples wrote:I know I haven't been authoring much recently, but I know that when I was a more active author, I liked the existing category system because it helped me focus my ideas and thoughts and write what I felt were more effective proposals.

Which is a fairly odd sentiment, given you managed to write so many medical resolutions before the Health category even existed.
Personally, I have no interest in issue authoring because I haven't the faintest clue where to even start with coming up with an idea. I think this sort of change would make the general assembly into more of "international issue authoring" rather than resolution writing. I don't want to speak for more active authors, but I don't know that that would engage my interest as much if I was just getting into this side of the game.

This doesn't have anything to do with issues.

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Sat May 09, 2015 9:22 am

The Dark Star Republic wrote:But - that proposal wasn't declared illegal under the old system, either.

It should have been.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Ainocra
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1430
Founded: Sep 20, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ainocra » Sat May 09, 2015 12:32 pm

I really don't think we should get rid of categories, and I definitely wouldn't want to see riders.
would we also be able to attach riders to Repeals?

It would be more fluid, but in the end I think it's gonna create too much work.


Whose for a repeal of Napa that declares James Brown to be the godfather of all soul in perpetuity?
Alcon Enta
Supreme Marshal of Ainocra

"From far, from eve and morning and yon twelve-winded sky, the stuff of life to knit blew hither: here am I. ...Now--for a breath I tarry nor yet disperse apart--take my hand quick and tell me, what have you in your heart." --Roger Zelazny

User avatar
Old Hope
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1332
Founded: Sep 21, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Old Hope » Sat May 09, 2015 1:15 pm

Ainocra wrote:I really don't think we should get rid of categories, and I definitely wouldn't want to see riders.
would we also be able to attach riders to Repeals?

It would be more fluid, but in the end I think it's gonna create too much work.


Whose for a repeal of Napa that declares James Brown to be the godfather of all soul in perpetuity?

These riders could be seen and being acted against accordingly. If no one sees it... well, that is your own fault, no?
And the work... well, that is the point, no? But at least removing the category problem would get the stats players back to debate in the WA...
Arbitrarily fixed stats for proposals are hindering the process too much.
Last edited by Old Hope on Sat May 09, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Imperium Anglorum wrote:The format wars are a waste of time.

User avatar
Ainocra
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1430
Founded: Sep 20, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ainocra » Sat May 09, 2015 5:41 pm

That's one vote for the duly ordained godfather of soul

The problem is the issue of technology
and I think such a system would scare off newbies
Alcon Enta
Supreme Marshal of Ainocra

"From far, from eve and morning and yon twelve-winded sky, the stuff of life to knit blew hither: here am I. ...Now--for a breath I tarry nor yet disperse apart--take my hand quick and tell me, what have you in your heart." --Roger Zelazny

User avatar
Flibbleites
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6569
Founded: Jan 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Flibbleites » Sat May 09, 2015 5:56 pm

I just had a thought, what if we were to have the Manual stats be an option for authors to use? An author could choose between writing to a category or using the manual stats.

User avatar
Jean Pierre Trudeau
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1158
Founded: Nov 20, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean Pierre Trudeau » Sat May 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Mousebumples wrote: I think this sort of change would make the general assembly into more of "international issue authoring" rather than resolution writing. I don't want to speak for more active authors, but I don't know that that would engage my interest as much if I was just getting into this side of the game.


I agree.
Jean Pierre Trudeau
Chancellor, United Federation of Canada,
Premier, The North American Union
World Assembly Resolution Author

Socialism is NOT Communism.

User avatar
Old Hope
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1332
Founded: Sep 21, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Old Hope » Sun May 10, 2015 12:39 am

Jean Pierre Trudeau wrote:
Mousebumples wrote: I think this sort of change would make the general assembly into more of "international issue authoring" rather than resolution writing. I don't want to speak for more active authors, but I don't know that that would engage my interest as much if I was just getting into this side of the game.


I agree.

I don't:
-It would be always one option, as opposed to some diverse options. And no one would edit that what you write.
-The active authors are mostly interested in the current system because they are the ones who are writing here with success. Or in other words:Those who who dislike the current system and would like the suggested one are most likely not those who are active right now!
Imperium Anglorum wrote:The format wars are a waste of time.

User avatar
Railana
Diplomat
 
Posts: 518
Founded: Apr 11, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Railana » Sun May 10, 2015 7:18 am

Personally, I like the idea of resolution editors and agree with much of the criticism of the current category system that Gruen made in the OP.

I think you'd still need a category or other special classification for Repeals, though, because they have a special, non-stat effect (striking out an existing resolution).

Mousebumples wrote:I liked the existing category system because it helped me focus my ideas and thoughts and write what I felt were more effective proposals.


I agree that it's generally best to stick to a single topic when writing a proposal - indeed, the proposal character limit essentially requires it - but there's no reason why an author couldn't still do that under this proposed system.

Mousebumples wrote:I think this sort of change would make the general assembly into more of "international issue authoring" rather than resolution writing. I don't want to speak for more active authors, but I don't know that that would engage my interest as much if I was just getting into this side of the game.


I don't understand this comparison. Under this proposed system, we're still writing resolutions, not issues. What's more, as I alluded to above, this proposed system only expands the scope of proposal topics; it does not require that you do anything differently. Every one of your passed resolutions would still be a valid proposal under the new system; you just wouldn't have to pick a category.
Dominion of Railana
Also known as Auralia

"Lex naturalis voluntas Dei est."

User avatar
Charlotte Ryberg
The Muse of the Westcountry
 
Posts: 15007
Founded: Mar 14, 2007
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Sun May 10, 2015 11:49 am

Proposal riding is not my cup of tea for sake of simplicity: by all means the stats system gets my support, but proposal authors should then be asked to keep to the topic and not be misleading.

User avatar
The Dark Star Republic
Senator
 
Posts: 4339
Founded: Oct 19, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Dark Star Republic » Sun May 10, 2015 11:52 am

Charlotte Ryberg wrote:Proposal riding is not my cup of tea for sake of simplicity: by all means the stats system gets my support, but proposal authors should then be asked to keep to the topic and not be misleading.

Really just thinking aloud, but much as I find this fear of devious riders overblown, one solution would be to more rigorously enforce a rule on the proposal matching the title. This is the sort of thing that has been challenged before ("Individual Self-Determination", "Reproductive Freedoms") and the mods have tended to say it's a matter for the voters - but if the voters don't have the guidance of a category descriptor ("a resolution to increase the environment at the expense of industry") the title is more important.
Last edited by The Dark Star Republic on Sun May 10, 2015 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Knootoss
Senator
 
Posts: 4140
Founded: Antiquity
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Knootoss » Sun May 10, 2015 10:57 pm

If the 'custom stats' idea is possible (and I don't see why it wouldn't be, given the fact that it's possible for issues) that would be hugely preferable to the current bullshit.

Ideological Bulwark #7 - RPed population preserves relative population sizes. Webgame population / 100 is used by default. If this doesn't work for you and it is relevant to our RP, please TG.

User avatar
Reploid Productions
Director of Moderation
 
Posts: 30511
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Sun May 10, 2015 11:05 pm

I think my biggest concern with such a system is that it relies on a fairly small group of people being able to quickly and consistently input stats. What happens if Real Life kicks a bunch of the editors/mods in the face at the same time? Some of that could be mitigated by having proposals that have reached quorum be "sent to committee for final review" or something along those lines, where they wouldn't go to the floor until the stats are done, but it still makes an otherwise automated system have a potential weak link with the live people component.

On the other hand, a pure "pick the stats it effects" could prevent that human risk of failure, but it would need to be handled carefully. For one thing, we can't just give people the full set of stats that issues can affect, since we don't want to give away what exactly is going on under the hood as it were. For another, I could see that still requiring a lot of moderation oversight to prevent people trying to use it to game the WA census or otherwise mis-categorizing their proposal text to the stats that they pick.

Kinda like the idea of a hybridized system though, where people could just use an existing category from the system (probably adding more categories would help in any case,) or to have it sent to some sort of legality committee or whatever in-character term folks come up with for the stats editing folks. Then those who prefer to write to category can still do so, while simultaneously opening a whole new slice of potential legislation for people who might prefer to focus explicitly on the text of their resolution, with all the potential for riders and related legal shenanigans that go with it. Plus, if something happens that delays the editing team for whatever reason, the GA could still function on the category-based legislation until the team could catch back up.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003 -- Nation turned 20 on March 23, 2023!
Sunset's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such.
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2024! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General Assembly Rules Consortium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Advertisement

Remove ads