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National Day of Prayer/Reason (US)

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Lumeau
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National Day of Prayer/Reason (US)

Postby Lumeau » Tue May 05, 2015 6:33 am

On May 7, the United States observes the annual "National Day of Prayer."

The basis of the National Day of Prayer is a federal law passed in 1988 that requires the President to "designate the first thursday in May as a National Day of Prayer on which the people of the United States may turn to God in prayer and meditation."

For those of you unfamiliar with the US Constitution, it prohibits government from making any law respecting the establishment of religion.

It's been argued that the National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional, and therefore illegal, because requiring the President to ask Americans to pray is essentially endorsing a religious practice.

There was a lawsuit brought a few years ago by the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), a secularist group, that argued this very point. Ultimately, the FFRF lost because a circuit court (these are the highest courts in the land other than the Supreme Court) ruled that the FFRF did not have standing to sue. What this means is that they didn't have any right to sue to have the law overturned. In American law, you have to have a personal stake in something to sue over it - this is what "standing" means. The court basically said that the FFRF had not been "injured," that is, they had not been forced to do anything by the National Day of Prayer law, nor did the FFRF alter its conduct due to the National Day of Prayer. In other cases, courts ruled that secular plaintiffs who altered their commutes to avoid driving past religious displays on public property DID have standing because avoiding these displays cost them time and money - a concrete injury. Since the result was basically "you can't sue, go home," the court didn't even address whether the National Day of Prayer was actaully constitutional.

It's unclear whether or not other circumstances could give a different plantiff standing to sue in the future, but as for now, the National Day of Prayer is constitutional.

Personally, I believe that the National Day of Prayer law IS unconstitutional, for a number of legal reasons I won't get into in this post because they're a bit long and boring. But aside from the legal stuff, here are some other concerns I have with it:

The National Day of Prayer was signed into law in the late 1980s, a time in American history where conservative politics dominated and had much more traction and legitimacy among the public than they do today. The law was passed at the behest of Billy Graham, a famous evangelical Christian preacher. The biggest National Day of Prayer celebrations are organized by the National Day of Prayer Task Force, an openly evangelical Christian organization that takes stances on political issues such as gay marriage - from a Biblical point of view, of course.

Most of the people who openly make a big deal about the National Day of Prayer - and efforts to oppose it - are conservative Christians. Although the text of the law is ecumenical in nature - only referencing God and not any specific religion - it's painfully obvious that the law was put in place by Christians only, for Christians only. Not for people like me (I'm a deist) and not for Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, or any other religious minority. I'm convinced that most of the people who take the National Day of Prayer seriously are exclusionary Religious Right-types that probably do not want adherents of any other religion celebrating the holiday.

In response, secularist groups instead celebrate the National Day of Reason on the same day, involving protests, celebrations, and charitable activities. In addition, several state and city governments across the US have issued Day of Reason proclamations as well.

While I don't have a problem with people that pray, I do have a problem with this "holiday" and think that it's probably violative of the First Amendment. What do you say, NationStates?

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Postby Conservative Values » Tue May 05, 2015 7:19 am

I do not personally believe that lightly endorsing religion in general is in violation of the establishment clause, because it is widely applicable to many religious beliefs. I also think it is a silly thing to be upset about in U.S. Politics because it is so harmless and feeds the crazed narrative of "war on Christianity." Last Gallup I saw didn't even show big opposition from the non-religious, because it is just an event of no consequence every year.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 05, 2015 7:28 am

Conservative Values wrote:I do not personally believe that lightly endorsing religion in general is in violation of the establishment clause, because it is widely applicable to many religious beliefs.

It really isn't, though. "God" as a proper noun is really only used to refer to the deity of the Christian religion.
I also think it is a silly thing to be upset about in U.S. Politics because it is so harmless and feeds the crazed narrative of "war on Christianity." Last Gallup I saw didn't even show big opposition from the non-religious, because it is just an event of no consequence every year.

If it's an event of no consequence then there should be no opposition to it being removed.
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Lumeau
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Postby Lumeau » Tue May 05, 2015 7:33 am

Conservative Values wrote:I do not personally believe that lightly endorsing religion in general is in violation of the establishment clause, because it is widely applicable to many religious beliefs. I also think it is a silly thing to be upset about in U.S. Politics because it is so harmless and feeds the crazed narrative of "war on Christianity." Last Gallup I saw didn't even show big opposition from the non-religious, because it is just an event of no consequence every year.


Although we are on opposing sides of the legal issue, your general point is a decent one. I agree there are far more pressing issues, and even as a stanuch secularist, this isn't something I lose sleep over.

There is a doctrine called "ceremonial deism" that is very similar to your point of view that was used to defeat challenges to having "In God We Trust" on our money. An argument could be made that it applies here since both the statute and the presidential proclamations are ecumenical in nature.
Last edited by Lumeau on Tue May 05, 2015 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Planita
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Postby Planita » Tue May 05, 2015 7:34 am

Meh.

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Hladgos
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Postby Hladgos » Tue May 05, 2015 7:36 am

I don't like that it's a national day recognized by the government. People can pray when they want, there doesn't need to be an official day for it.
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Conservative Values
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Postby Conservative Values » Tue May 05, 2015 7:37 am

Ifreann wrote:
Conservative Values wrote:I do not personally believe that lightly endorsing religion in general is in violation of the establishment clause, because it is widely applicable to many religious beliefs.

It really isn't, though. "God" as a proper noun is really only used to refer to the deity of the Christian religion.
I also think it is a silly thing to be upset about in U.S. Politics because it is so harmless and feeds the crazed narrative of "war on Christianity." Last Gallup I saw didn't even show big opposition from the non-religious, because it is just an event of no consequence every year.

If it's an event of no consequence then there should be no opposition to it being removed.

I wouldn't really care that much if it were removed, personally. But any candidate or leader who made it a big priority would be off-putting, at it seems pretty anti-religion.

I don't think anyone is required or encouraged to pray to god/God (proper noun or otherwise) on the national day of prayer. Pray to Allah, pray to Odin if it floats your viking boat. Or don't pray and ignore the holiday. It is a day to do all of those things, and the government does not care which you do.

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue May 05, 2015 7:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
Conservative Values wrote:I do not personally believe that lightly endorsing religion in general is in violation of the establishment clause, because it is widely applicable to many religious beliefs.

It really isn't, though. "God" as a proper noun is really only used to refer to the deity of the Christian religion.


I don't know if the U.S. has an equivalent to Common Law but I'd agree, that from the points raised by the OP and what would be common understanding, God in this instance would be commonly understood as the Christian God and therefore this is in respect to a religion.

People can focus on a specific instance and ask 'what does it matter' but it's the totality of combined influences that matter as to whether a culture perceives dominance of one belief over another and therefore the individual instances do matter.
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Tunasai
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Postby Tunasai » Tue May 05, 2015 7:45 am

I'm going to add fuel to the fire here, in an effort to evoke the ire of those who despise my kind. I am religious right, Conservative Christian, and I support the National Day of Prayer...

Now to give respect to the OP and the question, the gain from this isn't worth the fight. Yes, to a secularist this day might leave a bad taste, but removing it will only just embolden the Conservative Christians who you aren't too fond of to begin with. By taking away this day all you will accomplish is pissing off a good portion of America who will be inspired to push back at every level. At that point ask yourself, is this fight worth the trouble?
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Postby Hladgos » Tue May 05, 2015 7:50 am

Tunasai wrote:I'm going to add fuel to the fire here, in an effort to evoke the ire of those who despise my kind. I am religious right, Conservative Christian, and I support the National Day of Prayer...

Now to give respect to the OP and the question, the gain from this isn't worth the fight. Yes, to a secularist this day might leave a bad taste, but removing it will only just embolden the Conservative Christians who you aren't too fond of to begin with. By taking away this day all you will accomplish is pissing off a good portion of America who will be inspired to push back at every level. At that point ask yourself, is this fight worth the trouble?

"Lemme just blatantly be a bag of bait here."

Why do you support a national day of prayer? You can pray whenever you want, just like I can wear Star Wars and preach the path of the Jedi whenever I want. Why need a day for it? Isn't religion a deeply personal experience rather than a group huddle thing?
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Pro: being outside, conserving our Earth, the pursuit of happiness, universal acceptance
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Life is suffering. Suffering is caused by craving and aversion. Suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained. Live a moral life.

"Life would be tragic if it weren't funny." -Stephen Hawking

"The purpose of our life is to be happy." -Dali Lama

"If I had no sense of humor, I would have long ago committed suicide." -Gandhi

"Don't worry, be happy!" -Bobby McFerrin

Silly Pride

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 05, 2015 7:51 am

Conservative Values wrote:
Ifreann wrote:It really isn't, though. "God" as a proper noun is really only used to refer to the deity of the Christian religion.

If it's an event of no consequence then there should be no opposition to it being removed.

I wouldn't really care that much if it were removed, personally. But any candidate or leader who made it a big priority would be off-putting, at it seems pretty anti-religion.

So it is, in fact, of consequence. It is one brick less in the wall of separation that is meant to exist between church and state. Any efforts to replace that brick would be met with staunch opposition from every quarter. Many would see it as an attack on conservative values, amusingly.

I don't think anyone is required or encouraged to pray to god/God (proper noun or otherwise) on the national day of prayer. Pray to Allah, pray to Odin if it floats your viking boat. Or don't pray and ignore the holiday. It is a day to do all of those things, and the government does not care which you do.

Of course no one is required to pray. The courts wouldn't be able to wriggle out of striking a law like that down. My point is that any reference to "God" is not a vague reference to any kind of deity one might believe in. It is a reference to the Christian deity, and the Christian deity only.
Last edited by Ifreann on Tue May 05, 2015 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lumeau
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Postby Lumeau » Tue May 05, 2015 7:53 am

Tunasai wrote:I'm going to add fuel to the fire here, in an effort to evoke the ire of those who despise my kind. I am religious right, Conservative Christian, and I support the National Day of Prayer...

Now to give respect to the OP and the question, the gain from this isn't worth the fight. Yes, to a secularist this day might leave a bad taste, but removing it will only just embolden the Conservative Christians who you aren't too fond of to begin with. By taking away this day all you will accomplish is pissing off a good portion of America who will be inspired to push back at every level. At that point ask yourself, is this fight worth the trouble?


You could say "doing X will embolden the other side against you" for just about any large-scale political movement though.

As far as whether it's "worth it"...like I said in another post, this is not something I lose sleep over and I don't have a problem with folks who are religious and choose to observe the holiday. But to answer your question...I mean, I don't think the Religious Right can be much more emboldened than they currently are. Tons of them are convinced that Obama has a secret anti-Christian agenda and that public accomodations laws for gays will be the complete undoing of their faith. Don't think a legal showdown over a holiday many people don't even know about would make things much worse!

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 05, 2015 8:00 am

Tunasai wrote:I'm going to add fuel to the fire here, in an effort to evoke the ire of those who despise my kind. I am religious right, Conservative Christian, and I support the National Day of Prayer...

Now to give respect to the OP and the question, the gain from this isn't worth the fight. Yes, to a secularist this day might leave a bad taste, but removing it will only just embolden the Conservative Christians who you aren't too fond of to begin with. By taking away this day all you will accomplish is pissing off a good portion of America who will be inspired to push back at every level. At that point ask yourself, is this fight worth the trouble?

Pissing off people who want America to be a Christian nation, in contravention of the supreme law of the land, sounds like a good sign that one is on the right track.
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Aggicificicerous
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Postby Aggicificicerous » Tue May 05, 2015 8:37 am

Officially, the National Day of Prayer is probably constitutional because it does not endorse any specific religion. Unofficially, we all know that it does. It shouldn't exist, but it probably won't be getting abolished in the foreseeable future.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue May 05, 2015 9:08 am

Aggicificicerous wrote:Officially, the National Day of Prayer is probably constitutional because it does not endorse any specific religion. Unofficially, we all know that it does. It shouldn't exist, but it probably won't be getting abolished in the foreseeable future.

Probably not. Secularism doesn't seem to be politically viable in the US.
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French Realms
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Postby French Realms » Tue May 05, 2015 4:03 pm

I am glad there is still a day of prayer in America. Religion is very important in culture. America needs faith. We can be a great nation with God's guidance.

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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Tue May 05, 2015 4:10 pm

It's obviously unconstitutional, and just another brick in the wall of Christian hegemony that many conservatives would like to build around this nation.

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue May 05, 2015 4:15 pm

Looks unconstitutional to me.
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New Albian
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Postby New Albian » Tue May 05, 2015 4:15 pm

If no one is being forced to pray I genuinely don't care. There are more important issues and I'm sure there is a far more legitimate legal argument made by people that are more qualified than you that can directly refute the 1st amendments contradiction to this law.

I for one, wont be praying, but I'm not offended nor do I feel my rights were violated.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue May 05, 2015 4:16 pm

French Realms wrote:I am glad there is still a day of prayer in America. Religion is very important in culture. America needs faith. We can be a great nation with God's guidance.

Image
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Cyrisnia
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Postby Cyrisnia » Tue May 05, 2015 4:16 pm

If people aren't being forced to pray, I don't see an issue.
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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Tue May 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Cyrisnia wrote:If people aren't being forced to pray, I don't see an issue.


Fundamentally, what it comes down to is that Christians can use the recognition of the day of prayer to assert that there is precedent for effectively recognizing a state religion in America.

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Cyrisnia
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Postby Cyrisnia » Tue May 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
French Realms wrote:I am glad there is still a day of prayer in America. Religion is very important in culture. America needs faith. We can be a great nation with God's guidance.

Image

1st page and already a Hitler comparison?
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French Realms
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Postby French Realms » Tue May 05, 2015 4:19 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
French Realms wrote:I am glad there is still a day of prayer in America. Religion is very important in culture. America needs faith. We can be a great nation with God's guidance.

Image

Hitler was not a true Christian though. He just said that to get the German population on his side.

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Tue May 05, 2015 4:20 pm

Cyrisnia wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Image

1st page and already a Hitler comparison?

caaaalllllmmmm dooooowwnnnnn

Just saying, "God's guidance" is subjective. Michelle Bachmann said God wanted her to run and look how well that worked out. A lot of people think "God" is on their side. Anyone can claim the endorsement of an invisible sky fairy.
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The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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