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Free the nipple:should women be able to go topless in public

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should women be allowed to 'go topless' in areas where men are allowed the same privilege?

Yes
437
69%
No
192
31%
 
Total votes : 629

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Atlanticatia
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Free the nipple:should women be able to go topless in public

Postby Atlanticatia » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:32 am

In early August, 33-year-old Phoenix Feeley began a 16-day jail sentence in New Jersey for refusing to pay fines from 2008 when she was arrested for sunbathing topless at a Spring Lake beach. She spent nine days on a hunger strike before being released early from Monmouth County Jail on August 14.

Feeley is part of Go Topless, an organization that advocates for women’s right to go topless on the basis of gender equality. The group says its objective is not to push for a world where everyone goes sans shirt, but rather to push back against what they see as an infringement of women’s constitutional right not to be discriminated against on the basis of gender. The question is: Why should women be barred from going topless where men are not? It’s a question that quickly takes its debaters from an analysis of legality to the subtleties of how men and women are treated by the law and society.

The incident in New Jersey wasn’t Feeley’s first legal squabble over the issue of public toplessness. In 2005, the activist successfully sued the NYPD after being arrested for walking shirtless down a New York City street, where it is officially legal for women to do so. She was awarded a settlement of $29,000, in addition to bringing attention to the often vague or inconsistently enforced toplessness laws in the US.

New York, along with the majority of other states, has laws that hold what individuals from Go Topless call a gender-equal position on public nudity: While people may be cited for “public indecency” or “disorderly conduct”, it is not illegal for a woman to have an exposed chest anywhere a man would be allowed to do the same. New Jersey, where Feeley was most recently arrested, is one of about a dozen states with ambiguous laws on the matter. Only three states – Indiana, Utah, and Tennessee – continue to have a complete ban on exposed female chests at any time. Many cities, however, circumvent more liberal statewide laws with local ordinances that make the baring of female breasts in public punishable by fines or imprisonment. Fines are more common, as simply being topless is a misdemeanor offense in most locations. However, if the arresting officer decides the individual was deliberately “lewd or obscene”, if other people file complaints, or if there are minors around, the topless individual may face felony charges, and may even be registered as a sex offender.

The idea that female toplessness is somehow different from male toplessness is clearly deeply embedded in our collective social psyche.
Feeley’s 2005 arrest in New York City, although it made headlines for her successful lawsuit, was not an anomaly. Women are commonly arrested for toplessness in states whose laws allow female toplessness. Earlier this year, 34,000 NYPD officers were issued a reminder that they can’t arrest anyone, male or female, for simply being bare-chested, which has been legal there since the mid-90s.

The idea that female toplessness is somehow different from male toplessness is clearly deeply embedded in our collective social psyche.

This argument, in fact, came up in a landmark case in 1986, when nine women were arrested in Rochester, New York, for being topless in an isolated park, at a time when the state had a law forbidding female toplessness.

Judge Herman Walz, one of the first to hear the case, which took six years before being settled finally by the New York State Court of Appeals, wrote in his decision that “the statute's objective is to protect the public from invasions of its sensibilities, and merely reflects current community standards as to what constitutes nudity. The objective itself is not based on stereotyped notions, therefore it is not illegitimate.” He also wrote that “community standards do not deem the exposure of males' breasts offensive, therefore the state does not have an interest in preventing exposure of the males' breasts.”

In other words: the government “objective” wasn’t directly aimed at promoting a stereotype, though it did shape legislation catering to publicly held stereotypes.

This was a line of reasoning ultimately rejected by the Court of Appeals, which held that the state, whose law was being challenged, had failed to prove “that there is an important government interest at stake and that the gender classification is substantially related to that interest.” Vito J. Titone, writing a concurring opinion, went further, explicitly rejecting the idea that “public sensibility” could be invoked in defense of this sort of law. The “concept of ‘public sensibility’ itself, when used in these contexts,” he argued, “may be nothing more than a reflection of commonly-held preconceptions and biases. One of the most important purposes to be served by the equal protection clause is to ensure that ‘public sensibilities’ grounded in prejudice and unexamined stereotypes do not become enshrined as part of the official policy of government.”

A thorough understanding of pro-topless advocates’ concerns requires going beyond the issue of legal consistency. Part of what topless advocates object to in gender unequal topless laws are the implications of the underlying messages the laws could be (perhaps unwittingly) reinforcing.

The problem, as Reena Glazer wrote in the Duke Law Journal in 1993, is that laws like that in the 1986 case are “written solely to take into account potential viewers. The focus is on the male response to viewing topless women; there is no focus on the female actor herself.” The implication, she argued, particularly when laid next to the statute’s “exemption for topless entertainment” is that “what might arouse men can only be displayed when men want to be aroused.” By contrast, “men are free to expose their chests … with no consideration of the impact on possible viewers.”

That’s where the real damage of these laws comes in: Though it’s unlikely that many men, if suddenly forced to don a shirt while, say, out for a jog, would find their worlds or senses of self greatly affected, the disparity in treatment of the genders appears to offer legal validation that a man’s view of a woman’s body is the only one that matters. The underlying message to the public is that women’s bodies are inherently sexual, and thus inappropriate to be seen in public.

The question then becomes much more basic than whether or not being topless in public is permissible. The issue becomes a matter of women being able to exist and be seen as something other than sexual creatures. The thinking which fuels laws against female toplessness supports the attitude that women are in a perpetual state of sexual engagement, whereas men are allowed to exist in a whole range of bodily states, some of them benign enough to permit the exposure of their chests without it being considered automatically indecent. Proponents of topless equality assert that laws that single out women are effectively perpetuating a degrading cultural norm towards sexualizing women’s bodies without their consent. The concern is that the laws incidentally support a larger mentality of objectifying women.

One of the curiosities of the debate, then, is that both sides argue that they are combatting objectification. Those opposed to public female toplessness say it is the exposure of breasts that will sexualize the women baring them. The question, finally, has much to do with how you think laws should relate to society: Is it more advisable to use laws to protect women (and the public) in a society that already views their bodies as sexual? Or should laws challenge preconceptions and foster an evolution in the perception of female bodies? Given that in the US, there are over 200,000 occurrences of sexual assault annually, with 9 out of 10 victims being women, both sides understandably feel that the sexualization of the female body is a high-stakes issue.

Advocates like Phoenix Feeley and Go Topless, though, would argue in favor of the more progressive second approach: using law as a tool for change. Pro-topless equality supporters claim that if state and local governments facilitate the normalizing of female bodies, people will begin to see women less as sex objects for the taking, a mental shift which could feed a decline in, among other problems, assault. They claim they are pushing for equal laws in an effort not only to gain legal fairness, but to change the overall view of women in American society. Legal thought in the U.S. seems to be shifting, slowly, in their favor. Only time will tell whether their social predictions, too, will be borne out.


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ic/279755/
"Free the nipple": should women allowed to be topless in public, in areas where men are allowed to be?

I think yes. Why should a woman's breasts be considered lewd and obscene, but a shirtless man isn't? Why can men go topless at the beach (and trust me, there are probably many men who could fill in a double-D bra, too..), but women can't?

I think this comes down to sexism. Our society says that if a woman's nipple is seen, it's lewd. Remember when Janet Jackson caused millions of dollars in lawsuits when she had a 'wardrobe malfunction'? But we can turn on the TV and see a man shirtless on normal daytime TV.

I completely support decriminalisation of women being topless in public, in areas where men are allowed to be. Anything else is discriminatory and sexist. It's time for us to "free the nipple". If a woman wants to sunbathe topless, she should be allowed to. It's time that we stop oversexualizing women's bodies and achieve equality in that respect.

The legality of women being topless in NYC is pretty much an established fact now - with police being told specifically not to arrest topless women.

It is also important that women should be allowed to breastfeed in public places. It's time for society to get over its aversion to women's bodies and stamp out sexism.

So, what does NSG think? Shall we free the nipple?
Last edited by Atlanticatia on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Scomagia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:33 am

Yes. If men are allowed to go topless, women ought to be as well.
Last edited by Scomagia on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nirvash Type TheEND
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nirvash Type TheEND » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:34 am

Yes, free the tatas. It's an absurd and archaic double standard.

Also, in rebuttal to the objectification of the go topless movement; get the fuck out. It's the first step to desexualization.
Last edited by Nirvash Type TheEND on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SaintB
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Postby SaintB » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:35 am

Yes women should be allowed to go topless, we shouldn't be needlessly sexualizing their bodies. If that is too much for people to handle then we need to start needlessly sexualizing male toplessness.
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Val Halla
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Postby Val Halla » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:36 am

Yes, provided it isn't allowed in my home town. I dread the sight. *shudders*
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:43 am

As long as public breastfeeding is allowed, I'm not particularly concerned about whether public toplessness is allowed.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:00 am

Why not?

Seriously.. what harm does it cause?

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Tyrandel
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Postby Tyrandel » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:03 am

I'd rather go the opposite way and have nobody go topless, but that's just a personal preference rather than a moral stance.

If men are allowed to eschew wearing a shirt, so too should women. In fact, women have more of a reason to do so (breastfeeding). Still, better to have a universal standard.

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Zottistan
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Postby Zottistan » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:08 am

Either women should or men shouldn't.
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Socialist Tera
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Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist Tera » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:09 am

I agree, they should.
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Fanosolia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Fanosolia » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:12 am

Yes, they should but seriously want to believe that the world can grow up before then. To be clear, I'm talking about the immaturity and taboo feelings around them. (eg the whole breast feeding thing is a good place to start.)
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DnalweN acilbupeR
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Ex-Nation

Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:14 am

No. God no. This will create a huge danger for public safety. You'd probably see an enormous spike in car crashes & the like. :lol2:

On a more serious note

YES

FUCK

YES
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Aelex
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Ex-Nation

Postby Aelex » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:15 am

Let them do what they want, breasts never killed anyone...
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Piero Sraffa
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Postby Piero Sraffa » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:15 am

I certainly don't mind.
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Bezkoshtovnya
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Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:16 am

Scomagia wrote:Yes. If men are allowed to go topless, women ought to be as well.

Pretty much.
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Saudia-Irania
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Postby Saudia-Irania » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:16 am

OH YEAH FREE THE NIPS

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Havenic Israel
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Postby Havenic Israel » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:19 am

Sure, but they shouldn't get angry when men leer at them. Sorry, at least in Western culture breasts are a sexual attractor and that will never change, at least not in any of our life times. So if they get 'what they want' ostensibly, they better be willing to accept the consequences of it.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:20 am

Bezkoshtovnya wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Yes. If men are allowed to go topless, women ought to be as well.

Pretty much.

I will say, however, that I am dismayed at how much of the support of this position in this thread has basically been, "Yeah, free the titties!"

It's the other end of objectification, where certain persons want women to be able to go topless not because it's the just and fair thing but because they want to see boobs.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:21 am

Havenic Israel wrote:Sure, but they shouldn't get angry when men leer at them. Sorry, at least in Western culture breasts are a sexual attractor and that will never change, at least not in any of our life times. So if they get 'what they want' ostensibly, they better be willing to accept the consequences of it.

Heterosexual man reporting in. I wouldn't leer at topless women.
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Havenic Israel
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Postby Havenic Israel » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:22 am

Scomagia wrote:
Havenic Israel wrote:Sure, but they shouldn't get angry when men leer at them. Sorry, at least in Western culture breasts are a sexual attractor and that will never change, at least not in any of our life times. So if they get 'what they want' ostensibly, they better be willing to accept the consequences of it.

Heterosexual man reporting in. I wouldn't leer at topless women.


Then you clearly lack a sex drive. Not trying to be a jerk, just being honest.
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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:22 am

NO. And Men shouldn't either. Shirts for everyone, equality for everyone.
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Dustain
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Postby Dustain » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:22 am

I fully support a womans right to show me her boobs whenever she wants

Image
Last edited by Dustain on Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Romalae
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Postby Romalae » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:23 am

No way! I can't allow my children to see that in public. I would rather keep their eyes safe from such nudity so we can go to the theater to see Texas Chainsaw Massacre or The Expendables in peace.
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Scomagia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:23 am

Havenic Israel wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Heterosexual man reporting in. I wouldn't leer at topless women.


Then you clearly lack a sex drive. Not trying to be a jerk, just being honest.

No, I'm just not the sort of depraved person that goes, "Oooh, titties!"

My sex drive is plenty high, I assure you.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:24 am

I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, anything a man can do, a woman should be able to do so as well.

On the other, highly utilitarian hand...the number of incidents of minor injuries, car accidents, and general south-brain thinking would go up dramatically. I find that a somewhat un-good situation.
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