NATION

PASSWORD

Barry Goldwater and the Modern GOP

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Kelinfort
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16394
Founded: Nov 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Barry Goldwater and the Modern GOP

Postby Kelinfort » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:09 am

One of the forbearers of the Conservative movement in the United States was a Mr. Barry M. Goldwater. Seen by many as the father of the modern Conservative movement, his ideas on the role of government, particularly as a small, efficient entity that does not interfere in one's personal life is the basis of the Republican Party's philosophy today. Goldwater practiced brinkmanship in his day and was seen by many as a radical when he ran for president in 1964. But as time passed, his personal idealism cooled and he supported more establishment candidates. Many on the right admire him as a role model today. Yet Goldwater would surely cringe at the modern GOP.

Goldwater has a different political philosophy than a conservative. As noted by his firm stances on governmental regulation of the environment, secularism, abortion, homosexual rights, and isolationist foreign policy (all of which he supported), are very different compared to the average American conservative today. Why has the GOP shifted so far from the values of the man many consider to be an idol?

The answer lies in the social conservatism of the Religious Right. Goldwater unwittingly (or perhaps later regretted) aided the revival of social conservatism. Unlike his beliefs, this wing of the party strongly supported government intervention in one's personal life. This group is firmly in control of the Republican Party and will remain so for some time.

Do you think Goldwater was a positive part of the Conservative movement? Have social conservatives taken over the GOP? Would he stand aghast at the GOP of today?

Personally, (as you can read in my sig) I believe he would booed off the stage at CPAC. He definitely was more of a libertarian than a conservative and his stance on social issues would alienate a large portion of the GOP. It's quite ironic that he unleashed a conservative movement that would later transform the party into social reactionaries.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:12 am

Could you elaborate on how he facilitated this rise of the religious right?

I think the answer, by the way, is that the democrats abandoned economic justice to focus on social justice.
This necessitated that the republicans find some new way of identifying themselves.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Kelinfort
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16394
Founded: Nov 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kelinfort » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:15 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Could you elaborate on how he facilitated this rise of the religious right?

He empowered elements of the party who were much more conservative than he was on social issues. Coupled with Reagan's election and the Moral Majority, he helped the Religious Right grow in size, though this was probably not his intention.

User avatar
Gauthier
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52887
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Gauthier » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:17 am

Barry Goldwater today would be denounced as a liberal RINO.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
Where is your God-Emperor now?

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:17 am

Kelinfort wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Could you elaborate on how he facilitated this rise of the religious right?

He empowered elements of the party who were much more conservative than he was on social issues. Coupled with Reagan's election and the Moral Majority, he helped the Religious Right grow in size, though this was probably not his intention.


Ahh. So he had to appoint some people to represent different factions of the party and maintain legitimacy kind of thing?
I wouldn't say that's his fault then. There wouldn't have been any real alternatives.
If the religious right are say, 20% of your party, and none of your cabinet represent their views, that can fuck you in voter turnout and such, and leads to internal conspiring to oust you from position, or block your bills and such.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Zurkerx
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 12346
Founded: Jan 20, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Zurkerx » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:18 am

Yeah the social conservatives have taken control of the party, or it seems that way.
A Golden Civic: The New Pragmatic Libertarian
My Words: Indeed, Indubitably & Malarkey
Retired Admin in NSGS and NS Parliament

Accountant, Author, History Buff, Political Junkie
“Has ambition so eclipsed principle?” ~ Mitt Romney
"Try not to become a person of success, but rather try to become a person of value." ~ Albert Einstein
"Trust, but verify." ~ Ronald Reagan

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11859
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:42 am

Gauthier wrote:Barry Goldwater today would be denounced as a liberal RINO.


Really? Goldwater was an Objectivist to some extent iirc.
Left Wing Market Anarchism

Yes, I am back(ish)

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129572
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:43 am

Goldwater hated the religious right.

With No Apologies (1979)
I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.
Said in July 1981 in response to Moral Majority founder Jerry Falwell's opposition to the nomination of Sandra Day O'Connor to the Supreme Court, of which Falwell had said, "Every good Christian should be concerned." as quoted in Ed Magnuson, "The Brethren's First Sister," Time Magazine, (20 July, 1981)
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

User avatar
The New Sea Territory
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16992
Founded: Dec 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The New Sea Territory » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:08 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Gauthier wrote:Barry Goldwater today would be denounced as a liberal RINO.


Really? Goldwater was an Objectivist to some extent iirc.


That makes him more likely to be booed out of a conservative assembly. Modern American conservatism is viciously reactionary and borderline nationalistic. Barry Goldwater's "conservatism" was just neoclassical liberalism, or "libertarianism". Both the religious right and Goldwater-style right-wingers popped up around the same time, but the former is all that really remains today.
| Ⓐ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129572
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:59 pm

Another Barry quote


Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
Said in November 1994, as quoted in John Dean, Conservatives Without Conscience (2006)
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:26 pm

One of the few Republicans who I can say has my respect.
He apparently hated Nixon and kept to his principles and denounced Nixon during Watergate even though he was a fellow Republican.

User avatar
Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Goldwater was a libertarian Republican idolized by people who were much more socially conservative.
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:40 pm

Geilinor wrote:Goldwater was a libertarian Republican idolized by people who were much more socially conservative.

Modern Republicans are historically ignorant.
Fucking shocker.

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11859
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:42 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Really? Goldwater was an Objectivist to some extent iirc.


That makes him more likely to be booed out of a conservative assembly. Modern American conservatism is viciously reactionary and borderline nationalistic. Barry Goldwater's "conservatism" was just neoclassical liberalism, or "libertarianism". Both the religious right and Goldwater-style right-wingers popped up around the same time, but the former is all that really remains today.


I'm not an anti theist (hardly), but pissing off the RR is most satisfying.
Left Wing Market Anarchism

Yes, I am back(ish)

User avatar
Zakuvia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1989
Founded: Oct 22, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Zakuvia » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:58 pm

Honestly, when you look at the Political Map of ole Barry, he's actually a lot closer to the center than even the most 'liberal' Tea Party psychotic. Honestly Boehner is closer to a Goldwaterite than most others in the Congress.

Also, isn't it an odd sign when liberals are saying, "Gee, I wish the Reagan Revolution conservatives were running the Republicans"?
Last edited by Zakuvia on Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Balance is important in diets, gymnastics, and governments most of all.
NOW CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF NS!
-1.12, -0.46

User avatar
SaintB
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21792
Founded: Apr 18, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby SaintB » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:24 pm

I just want to state my objections to the use of modern and conservative as descriptors of todays GOP because they are neither. Backward and reactionary are more accurate.
Hi my name is SaintB and I am prone to sarcasm and hyperbole. Because of this I make no warranties, express or implied, concerning the accuracy, completeness, reliability or suitability of the above statement, of its constituent parts, or of any supporting data. These terms are subject to change without notice from myself.

Every day NationStates tells me I have one issue. I am pretty sure I've got more than that.

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11859
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:33 pm

Zakuvia wrote:Honestly, when you look at the Political Map of ole Barry, he's actually a lot closer to the center than even the most 'liberal' Tea Party psychotic. Honestly Boehner is closer to a Goldwaterite than most others in the Congress.

Also, isn't it an odd sign when liberals are saying, "Gee, I wish the Reagan Revolution conservatives were running the Republicans"?


The liberals must have taken the place of the Reaganites, or the Reaganites must of joined the liberals.

Also, Boehner is a terrible warhawk and security freak and shouldn't be compared to Goldwater.
Left Wing Market Anarchism

Yes, I am back(ish)

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69943
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:37 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Zakuvia wrote:Honestly, when you look at the Political Map of ole Barry, he's actually a lot closer to the center than even the most 'liberal' Tea Party psychotic. Honestly Boehner is closer to a Goldwaterite than most others in the Congress.

Also, isn't it an odd sign when liberals are saying, "Gee, I wish the Reagan Revolution conservatives were running the Republicans"?


The liberals must have taken the place of the Reaganites, or the Reaganites must of joined the liberals.

Also, Boehner is a terrible warhawk and security freak and shouldn't be compared to Goldwater.

Taking internal disputes outside our borders and undermining the countries foreign policy is borderline treason really.

User avatar
Murkwood
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7806
Founded: Apr 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Murkwood » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:42 pm

I'm glad the Goldwater wing was diminished. He was Libertarian, plain and simple. Ugh.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11859
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:45 pm

Murkwood wrote:I'm glad the Goldwater wing was diminished. He was Libertarian, plain and simple. Ugh.


Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban Gays and Creationism crowd in rather than people who want to balance the budget and give people their rights. /sarcasm
Left Wing Market Anarchism

Yes, I am back(ish)

User avatar
Murkwood
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7806
Founded: Apr 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Murkwood » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:47 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Murkwood wrote:I'm glad the Goldwater wing was diminished. He was Libertarian, plain and simple. Ugh.


Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban Gays and Creationism crowd in rather than people who want to balance the budget and give people their rights. /sarcasm

Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban the Military and Legalize Child Labor folks instead of traditional Americans. /s
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

User avatar
Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Geilinor » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:50 pm

Murkwood wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban Gays and Creationism crowd in rather than people who want to balance the budget and give people their rights. /sarcasm

Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban the Military and Legalize Child Labor folks instead of traditional Americans. /s

Most libertarians want neither of those two things, and I say this as not a libertarian.
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
Economic Left/Right: -1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11859
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:50 pm

Murkwood wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban Gays and Creationism crowd in rather than people who want to balance the budget and give people their rights. /sarcasm

Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban the Military and Legalize Child Labor folks instead of traditional Americans. /s


You mean the traditional Americans who had just that for 100 years and prospered because of it? (Child labor can be argued today but it was necessary for many families to make a profit earlier on)

Oh dear sorry I forgot that traditional conservatives were bible thumping state capitalist neonazis.
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Left Wing Market Anarchism

Yes, I am back(ish)

User avatar
Murkwood
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7806
Founded: Apr 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Murkwood » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:55 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Murkwood wrote:Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban the Military and Legalize Child Labor folks instead of traditional Americans. /s

Most libertarians want neither of those two things, and I say this as not a libertarian.

Most Social Conservatives don't want to "Ban Gays" (lol wut) either. It was a hyperbole.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

User avatar
Murkwood
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7806
Founded: Apr 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Murkwood » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:55 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Murkwood wrote:Ugh. Yeah, I know. I'd much rather have the Ban the Military and Legalize Child Labor folks instead of traditional Americans. /s


You mean the traditional Americans who had just that for 100 years and prospered because of it? (Child labor can be argued today but it was necessary for many families to make a profit earlier on)

Oh dear sorry I forgot that traditional conservatives were bible thumping state capitalist neonazis.

The Nazi's were Socialist, but good try.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cerula, Hidrandia, Kostane, Spirit of Hope, The Two Jerseys

Advertisement

Remove ads