Australia - our personal freedoms need to be "redrawn"

[Bunyip]

Our personal freedoms need to be "redrawn", according to our Prime Minister. http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/sydney-siege-report-the-system-has-let-us-down-says-tony-abbott-20150222-13llj2.html

That's why he needs the mandatory collection of all Australian's internet metadata. http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/prime-minister-tony-abbotts-full-national-security-statement-20150223-13m2xu.html

Mass metadata trawling is NOT an ineffective way to find organised terrorists or organised crime; the technical skills required to defend against it are troublesome but not hard. Organised terrorism and organised crime are small targets; secretive, motivated and resourceful. Using codewords, drops, proxies, 'burn' phones and TOR is all in a days work for them, as is corrupting/blackmailing someone "on the inside" to give them access to new methods, or the data itself. Bikers have been caught in possession of whole police files, and bikers are arguably the dumbest and least efficent incarnation of organised crime ever discovered.

On the other hand, mass metadata trawling is very very good at identifying larger and more vulnerable groups. Jews. Part-Jews. Timorese, Gypsies, Bosnians, Armenians and Overseas Chinese. Friends of one of the above. Gays, right-wing political activists, left-wing political activists. Artists. Small businesspeople. School teachers, union organisers, Catholics, people who have read a foreign newspaper.

Each of these groups has been targeted for extermination in living memory by at least one government in our Asia/Pacific region or in Europe. It just needs the right "perfect storm" of national crisis, scapegoating, secrecy, and leadership. And in almost every one of those cases telephone call metadata was utilised by the perpetrators to aid target selection. Internet metadata is much richer, more detailed, more powerful and more accurate.

On a quieter level, mass metadata can be used to pinpoint our public service, military, law enforcement, political, electoral and corporate officals in financial trouble and thus vulnerable to bribes and inducements. Or open to blackmail by being secretly adulterous, homosexual, religious, substance-abusing, kinky, HIV-positive or Nikki Minaj-listening.

Stockpiling metadata on every Australian is about as wise as stockpiling gunpowder under Parliament. Very, very useful to the bad guys, and all in one place.

Over decades, the probability approaches certainty that the bad people will hold of the database, whether by winning an election, hacking a server, corporate takeover, blackmailing an official, or militarily seizing the storage media.

And it will be our fault, if we don't tell our local federal MPs not to vote for it.

[Geilinor]

A big sacrifice for a questionable benefit. I hope Australia says no to this.

[The Conez Imperium]

A big sacrifice for a questionable benefit. I hope Australia says no to this.

The majority of Australian people are not very motivated or sharp unfortunately...we were raised in a country that did not experience the horrors of war to appreciate how great the value of freedom is.

Our generations now nothing about the sacrifice for freedom except through distant stories from Gallipoli, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam. Fighting for X right is a very distant concept in Australian society. It is somewhat of a curse to be a lucky country, born into a great society without needing bitter experiences to enjoy the labors of yesterday.

[Iwassoclose]

On the other hand, mass metadata trawling is very very good at identifying larger and more vulnerable groups. Jews. Part-Jews. Timorese, Gypsies, Bosnians, Armenians and Overseas Chinese. Friends of one of the above. Gays, right-wing political activists, left-wing political activists. Artists. Small businesspeople. School teachers, union organisers, Catholics, people who have read a foreign newspaper.

Each of these groups has been targeted for extermination in living memory by at least one government in our Asia/Pacific region or in Europe. It just needs the right "perfect storm" of national crisis, scapegoating, secrecy, and leadership. And in almost every one of those cases telephone call metadata was utilised by the perpetrators to aid target selection. Internet metadata is much richer, more detailed, more powerful and more accurate.

What are you implying here?

[Costa Fierro]

On the other hand, mass metadata trawling is very very good at identifying larger and more vulnerable groups. Jews. Part-Jews. Timorese, Gypsies, Bosnians, Armenians and Overseas Chinese. Friends of one of the above. Gays, right-wing political activists, left-wing political activists. Artists. Small businesspeople. School teachers, union organisers, Catholics, people who have read a foreign newspaper.

Each of these groups has been targeted for extermination in living memory by at least one government in our Asia/Pacific region or in Europe. It just needs the right "perfect storm" of national crisis, scapegoating, secrecy, and leadership. And in almost every one of those cases telephone call metadata was utilised by the perpetrators to aid target selection. Internet metadata is much richer, more detailed, more powerful and more accurate.

What are you implying here?

The government is going to exterminate everyone.

[Hyfling]

His initial reaction during the actual Siege did seem a bit too balanced and logical for Tony...*shrugs* I guess he's decided to enter full George Bush mode then...

[Hyfling]

Wait a sec, what's this?

On the other hand, mass metadata trawling is very very good at identifying larger and more vulnerable groups. Jews. Part-Jews. Timorese, Gypsies, Bosnians, Armenians and Overseas Chinese. Friends of one of the above. Gays, right-wing political activists, left-wing political activists. Artists. Small businesspeople. School teachers, union organisers, Catholics, people who have read a foreign newspaper.

Each of these groups has been targeted for extermination in living memory by at least one government in our Asia/Pacific region or in Europe. It just needs the right "perfect storm" of national crisis, scapegoating, secrecy, and leadership. And in almost every one of those cases telephone call metadata was utilised by the perpetrators to aid target selection. Internet metadata is much richer, more detailed, more powerful and more accurate.

I can't tell if this is a joke?

[Sebtopiaris]

No. This is fucking stupid. Look at America- they did this, and it fucked up bigtime. I mean, Christ, the NSA probably looks at Aussie internet anyway to some extent, so why does this have to happen?

[Costa Fierro]

His initial reaction during the actual Siege did seem a bit too balanced and logical for Tony...*shrugs* I guess he's decided to enter full George Bush mode then...

Has Tony decided to invade I-rack yet?

[Imperium Augustum]

Wait a sec, what's this?

On the other hand, mass metadata trawling is very very good at identifying larger and more vulnerable groups. Jews. Part-Jews. Timorese, Gypsies, Bosnians, Armenians and Overseas Chinese. Friends of one of the above. Gays, right-wing political activists, left-wing political activists. Artists. Small businesspeople. School teachers, union organisers, Catholics, people who have read a foreign newspaper.

Each of these groups has been targeted for extermination in living memory by at least one government in our Asia/Pacific region or in Europe. It just needs the right "perfect storm" of national crisis, scapegoating, secrecy, and leadership. And in almost every one of those cases telephone call metadata was utilised by the perpetrators to aid target selection. Internet metadata is much richer, more detailed, more powerful and more accurate.

I can't tell if this is a joke?

China is Asia/Pacific. Almost all of those are China.

Other nations which might count are Singapore (assuming that by extermination you just mean suppression) and Indonesia, in particular. In fact, the Khmer Rouge and South Vietnam count as living memory, although I don't know how much metadata either of them use.

[AiliailiA]

Heh-hem. Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs are "bikies" not "bikers". "Bikers" are people who ride motorbikes.

I'm a cyclist. From my perspective, bikies and bikers are roughly equivalent to motorists: lazy, risk-averse, fossil-fuel-wasting wankers who are a blight on the public thoroughfare! I give way to pedestrians, and horses pulling freight.

Anyway, "bikies" not "bikers".

[AiliailiA]

Wait a sec, what's this?


I can't tell if this is a joke?

China is Asia/Pacific. Almost all of those are China.

Other nations which might count are Singapore (assuming that by extermination you just mean suppression) and Indonesia, in particular. In fact, the Khmer Rouge and South Vietnam count as living memory, although I don't know how much metadata either of them use.

This is your first post?

You seem very ready and very willing to defend the OP's opinion, as if it was your own ...

You're a puppet of Bunyip aren't you?

[The Grim Reaper]

China is Asia/Pacific. Almost all of those are China.

Other nations which might count are Singapore (assuming that by extermination you just mean suppression) and Indonesia, in particular. In fact, the Khmer Rouge and South Vietnam count as living memory, although I don't know how much metadata either of them use.

This is your first post?

You seem very ready and very willing to defend the OP's opinion, as if it was your own ...

You're a puppet of Bunyip aren't you?

You have sigs turned off, I see.

It's my RP puppet, I was looking at factbook formatting and forgot that it wasn't my main factbook.

[AiliailiA]

This is your first post?

You seem very ready and very willing to defend the OP's opinion, as if it was your own ...

You're a puppet of Bunyip aren't you?

You have sigs turned off, I see.

It's my RP puppet, I was looking at factbook formatting and forgot that it wasn't my main factbook.

I have sigs enabled. I just didn't look.

So you started a thread with a forum virgin nation. Then posted to the thread, with a forum virgin nation. And now you're posting to it with your main?

Anyway, I'm reading your sources. They're both from The Age I notice.

[Reddogkeno101]

Straya mate.
Tony has obviously made another Captain's call here. He's got to go or Australian politics will keep digging itself a hole like it has since '07. Malcolm must return.

[Dustain]

Malcolm must return.

You realise half the polices that the Abbot government are criticised for are Turnbills right?
Right?
He's the communications minister so... NBN?
He's only going to be a better speaker, the Coalition government isn't going to change their policy. You want Labour back in power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-OUz-qK0X0

[Reddogkeno101]

Malcolm must return.

You realise half the polices that the Abbot government are criticised for are Turnbills right?
Right?
He's the communications minister so... NBN?
He's only going to be a better speaker, the Coalition government isn't going to change their policy. You want Labour back in power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-OUz-qK0X0

I don't want Labor back; they haven't learnt their lesson yet. I'm dissatisifed with both major parties but wouldn't vote for the minors because it's very dangerous doing that.

[Luziyca]

They may not have experienced the horrors of war, but I'm sure somebody somewhere has fought a war with one of the countless things from Australian wildlife.

[Lordieth]

Personal freedom and security are a fine balance to get right, and I suppose it's whether you consider giving up some personal freedoms is acceptable to protect ourselves from viable threats.

Hate preaching is a bit of a grey area, but when it comes to taking away the citizenship of Jihadists fighting for ISIS, I am in total and complete agreement.

What we don't need is a knee-jerk reaction which affects the person freedoms of everyone and can be abused by the very people who are supposed to be protecting its citizens.

[New Werpland]

A big sacrifice for a questionable benefit. I hope Australia says no to this.

The majority of Australian people are not very motivated or sharp unfortunately...we were raised in a country that did not experience the horrors of war to appreciate how great the value of freedom is.

Our generations now nothing about the sacrifice for freedom except through distant stories from Gallipoli, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam. Fighting for X right is a very distant concept in Australian society. It is somewhat of a curse to be a lucky country, born into a great society without needing bitter experiences to enjoy the labors of yesterday.

Lucky you, you don't get people running around demanding their freedoms.

[Second Blazing]

You have sigs turned off, I see.

It's my RP puppet, I was looking at factbook formatting and forgot that it wasn't my main factbook.

I have sigs enabled. I just didn't look.

So you started a thread with a forum virgin nation. Then posted to the thread, with a forum virgin nation. And now you're posting to it with your main?

Anyway, I'm reading your sources. They're both from The Age I notice.

I don't think Grim is the OP as well.

[Dustain]

I don't want Labor back; they haven't learnt their lesson yet. I'm dissatisifed with both major parties but wouldn't vote for the minors because it's very dangerous doing that.

What lesson is that?
Their administration was a little rocky but they got shit done in a terrible global economy.

High percentage debt to GDP? You mean 19.5 percent? You mean an economic health criterion that every single economist has dissagreed with aside from the guy who wrote the inital paper? You mean that the Coalition govenrment has made worse anyway.

Or do you mean the carbon tax? Perhaps you mean the policy that actually reduced carbon emittions by 2% in a nation with an increasing economy? You mean the policy that litterally had no impact on the cost of products we consume and maybe costed a household an extra 20 cents per day?

Or do you mean their promises to preserve and improve health care, education, communications instead of just the defense budget, and when I say the defense budget I mean throwing money at mother fucking Locheed Martin for their god damn boondoggle instead of giving our serving men and women a cost of living increase while they increase their own wages?

Which specific lesson are you talking about? I'd sure as shit make sure you check that it wasn't part of the media scare campaign that put us in this situation to begin with before you put finger to keyboard.

... I got a little carried away. But the more I think about it the more I get angry.

[New Stephania]

This seems to be the new trend among western governments. My government is trying to bring in a snoopers charter that would, to quote Wikipedia, "require Internet service providers and mobile phone companies to maintain records (but not the content) of each user's internet browsing activity (including social media), email correspondence, voice calls, internet gaming, and mobile phone messaging services and store the records for 12 months".

Thankfully it seems to have hit a roadblock in our upper house, the House of Lords. Hopefully it's not just a temporary setback.

[Imperializt Russia]

A big sacrifice for a questionable benefit. I hope Australia says no to this.

Why do all the conservative Commonwealth governments have to be shit?

Bring back the Empire.

[AiliailiA]

I don't want Labor back; they haven't learnt their lesson yet. I'm dissatisifed with both major parties but wouldn't vote for the minors because it's very dangerous doing that.

What lesson is that?
Their administration was a little rocky but they got shit done in a terrible global economy.

High percentage debt to GDP? You mean 19.5 percent? You mean an economic health criterion that every single economist has dissagreed with aside from the guy who wrote the inital paper? You mean that the Coalition govenrment has made worse anyway.

Or do you mean the carbon tax? Perhaps you mean the policy that actually reduced carbon emittions by 2% in a nation with an increasing economy? You mean the policy that litterally had no impact on the cost of products we consume and maybe costed a household an extra 20 cents per day?

Or do you mean their promises to preserve and improve health care, education, communications instead of just the defense budget, and when I say the defense budget I mean throwing money at mother fucking Locheed Martin for their god damn boondoggle instead of giving our serving men and women a cost of living increase while they increase their own wages?

Which specific lesson are you talking about? I'd sure as shit make sure you check that it wasn't part of the media scare campaign that put us in this situation to begin with before you put finger to keyboard.

... I got a little carried away. But the more I think about it the more I get angry.

There there.

Just mutter to yourself "one term Prime Minister" and you'll feel better.