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Is Capitalism Killing Democracy?

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Quilavaland
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Is Capitalism Killing Democracy?

Postby Quilavaland » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:24 pm

I've noticed more and more that in Capitalist "Democracies" all over the world, the main two parties are getting more and more similar to each other, and basically just doing whatever the companies who own the media are telling them to.

Take Australia for example, over 50% of people support gay marriage but neither party does. Or the fact that most of the Western world has (without consulting the people) moved the length of copyright up to an entire lifetime plus 70 years, whereas most ordinary people who supposedly vote on things like this think it should be just 50 years.

And this even affects more serious issues. The US is attacking ISIS for enforcing horrific fundamentalist law, but the same thing is going to happen in Brunei and is already happening in Saudi Arabia, but those governments are friendly to outside oil companies so the government and media are conveniently ignoring them.

Even more crazy is the US government's ability to spy on phonecalls, internet usage and peoples' houses even in other countries that didn't even vote them in. Do any of you remember voting to approve that?

The problem is, with just two major parties, and with corporations having the ability to buy control over the media and the minds of a huge number of apathetic and swing voters, both parties do what the corporations want so they get elected, their policies become the same, and there's no point voting any more. We might as well go live in an empire.

Not to mention that everything from jails to postal services to healthcare is being sold off to private companies, so eventually there won't even BE a government, except for figureheads, un-elected corportations will run all our public services for profit.

So anyway my question for you is this, do you think if we keep going down this path of prioritising money above all else and allowing corporations to buy control of the media, our democratic system will eventually cease to be democratic? Or has it already ceased to be democratic?
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Tyrinth
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Postby Tyrinth » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:27 pm

Capitalism and corporatism are different things.
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Republic of Libanon
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Postby Republic of Libanon » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:27 pm

Its not Capitalism that's desotryng democracy, the world is socialist mainly.

Keneyaisan economics is Socialism/Fascist using Communist theorires combined with Capitalism
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The Liberated Territories
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Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:28 pm

Tyrinth wrote:Capitalism and corporatism are different things.


Well, technically corporatism is a form of capitalism, but yeah what Quil is describing is corporatism.
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Sardinaes
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Postby Sardinaes » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:32 pm

Look at the US now, the people who aren't part of either of the 2 parties will not be represented in government, only the 2 big parties get media funding.

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20 Dragon Riders
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Postby 20 Dragon Riders » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Yes, the government is more concerned with their own jobs and money other than us citizens.


Jail me US and youll just prove my point.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Republic of Libanon wrote:Its not Capitalism that's desotryng democracy, the world is socialist mainly.

Keneyaisan economics is Socialism/Fascist using Communist theorires combined with Capitalism

No. To all of this, just no. :palm:
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:39 pm

20 Dragon Riders wrote:Yes, the government is more concerned with their own jobs and money other than us citizens.


Jail me US and youll just prove my point.

Jail you for what?
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Arlenton
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:39 pm

Tyrinth wrote:Capitalism and corporatism are different things.

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Bezkoshtovnya
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Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:42 pm

Republic of Libanon wrote:Its not Capitalism that's desotryng democracy, the world is socialist mainly.

Keneyaisan economics is Socialism/Fascist using Communist theorires combined with Capitalism

I...Uh....

Image
Last edited by Bezkoshtovnya on Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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20 Dragon Riders
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Postby 20 Dragon Riders » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:44 pm

Scomagia wrote:
20 Dragon Riders wrote:Yes, the government is more concerned with their own jobs and money other than us citizens.


Jail me US and youll just prove my point.

Jail you for what?


Saying what i think, which is supposed to be my first ammend right but have you seen protesters who say whats on their minds, not get arrested at all this century?
Dragons are not tools
Dragons are not animals
Dragons are our friends and protectors
Dragons are our family
and
no dragon shall not get hurt while we're around
-MOTTO OF THE ORDER OF DRAGON RIDERS-

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Daburuetchi
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Postby Daburuetchi » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:44 pm

Yes. As Engels said “wealth exercises its power indirectly, but all the more surely", first, by means of the “direct corruption of officials” (America); secondly, by means of an “alliance of the government and the Stock Exchange" A Bourgeois Democratic Republics is just that a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Capitalism and Democracy cannot coexist.

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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:45 pm

Corporatocracy is killing democracy, and statism is killing democracy. Capitalism just happens to be there.
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Bezkoshtovnya
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Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:46 pm

20 Dragon Riders wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Jail you for what?


Saying what i think, which is supposed to be my first ammend right but have you seen protesters who say whats on their minds, not get arrested at all this century?

Yes. Those who actually exercise their right responsible and don't take it into violent protests.
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:46 pm

20 Dragon Riders wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Jail you for what?


Saying what i think, which is supposed to be my first ammend right but have you seen protesters who say whats on their minds, not get arrested at all this century?

Take off the tinfoil.
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Harkback Union
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Postby Harkback Union » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:46 pm

YES, YES!

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Thalasus
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Postby Thalasus » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:47 pm

OP: Yes and no.

Yes, money has an absurd amount of power in politics, because it often speaks moreso then us timid voters. I don't think that has necessarily much to do with gay marriage in Australia or the NSA in the United States, but it certainly has everything to do with the absurd state of copyright laws and the unique situation with Saudi Arabia in the Middle East (although I wouldn't go as far as calling the enforcement of Sharia law in Saudi Arabia & Friends tantamount to ISIS massacres and barbarism).

No, I don't think it is killing democracy. Things have always been privatized (especially in America) since the beginning, yet nobody would argue that trading and railroad companies founded in the 1800's are currently ruling the government. We see the rise and fall of hundreds of large companies within our lives, which is more than we can say for some congressmen. Also, even though I know it's a clichéd argument I'm going to state it anyways: at the end of the day, a company has one goal in mind: keep the consumers happy and keep getting their money. If a government looked at its people with the same eyes but with the word "consumer" replaced with "citizen" and "money" with "votes", nobody would argue that the government in question is not a democracy. Even if the world was ruled by corporations using the democratic governments of the globe as puppets, you wouldn't even see a difference in the way things are working and have always worked. Democracy isn't some magical grace that falls upon a nation when it's people rule righteously through ever-honorable and benevolent representation. Democracy is rule of the people, and that rule comes from different ways.

We are not looking at a world ruled by corporations. Corporations don't want to rule the world, they just want money. What we are seeing is money being more in more involved in politics, but not by nefarious giant corporations. We're seeing lobbying, special interest groups, and large campaign donators with widely varying agendas making a mess of what should be a pure and logical government. For every military-industrial cigar-chomped, you have a lobbyist for a company that needs peace to thrive. For every oil-soaked fat cat, you have a green energy company (and thousands of hippies). For every Coke, you have a Pepsi. You see where it's not businesses that rule per se, it's money. And if you're frightened by that, don't be. Money has been, is, and always will be at the core of politics and will always be something that any free nation will have to keep in mind when casting their vote.

TL:DR: Not really, because money in a free-flowing capitalist society is a form of democracy, just not the "good, just, and honorable" vision we think of when the word "democracy" is heard. There are too many enemies, too many butting heads for Capitalism to really kill democracy. And even if their was, money is more important than votes to begin with.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:47 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Tyrinth wrote:Capitalism and corporatism are different things.


Well, technically corporatism is a form of capitalism, but yeah what Quil is describing is corporatism.


Corporatism is not a form of capitalism, and the term he is looking for is "corporatocracy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy
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"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
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Thalasus
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Postby Thalasus » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:51 pm

Bezkoshtovnya wrote:
Republic of Libanon wrote:Its not Capitalism that's desotryng democracy, the world is socialist mainly.

Keneyaisan economics is Socialism/Fascist using Communist theorires combined with Capitalism

I...Uh....

Image

"Fascist"
"Communist"
Image
Fiscally conservative, socially liberal. Internationalist/Globalist AF. Watch out for climate change and robots.
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20 Dragon Riders
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Postby 20 Dragon Riders » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:53 pm

Oh ha ha
Scomagia wrote:
20 Dragon Riders wrote:
Saying what i think, which is supposed to be my first ammend right but have you seen protesters who say whats on their minds, not get arrested at all this century?

Take off the tinfoil.


Im just pointing out that peaceful protests were broken up by cops and the leaders arrested more and more. Even its our first ammendment right to protest peacefully.
Dragons are not tools
Dragons are not animals
Dragons are our friends and protectors
Dragons are our family
and
no dragon shall not get hurt while we're around
-MOTTO OF THE ORDER OF DRAGON RIDERS-

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Kazirstan
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Postby Kazirstan » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:54 pm

Daburuetchi wrote:Yes. As Engels said “wealth exercises its power indirectly, but all the more surely", first, by means of the “direct corruption of officials” (America); secondly, by means of an “alliance of the government and the Stock Exchange" A Bourgeois Democratic Republics is just that a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Capitalism and Democracy cannot coexist.

Pretty much this.

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Bezkoshtovnya
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Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:55 pm

20 Dragon Riders wrote:Oh ha ha
Scomagia wrote:Take off the tinfoil.


Im just pointing out that peaceful protests were broken up by cops and the leaders arrested more and more. Even its our first ammendment right to protest peacefully.

Any examples?
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.
ΦΣK
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:56 pm

Daburuetchi wrote:Yes. As Engels said “wealth exercises its power indirectly, but all the more surely", first, by means of the “direct corruption of officials” (America); secondly, by means of an “alliance of the government and the Stock Exchange" A Bourgeois Democratic Republics is just that a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Capitalism and Democracy cannot coexist.


What Engels failed to realize is that the state and democracy cannot coexist, regardless of what economic policy the state practices. A state socialist country is just a "dictatorship of the political class", or merging of the market and the state rather than having them allied. It's simply more centralized oppression versus decentralized oppression.
| Ⓐ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore

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Thalasus
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Postby Thalasus » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:57 pm

20 Dragon Riders wrote:Oh ha ha
Scomagia wrote:Take off the tinfoil.


Im just pointing out that peaceful protests were broken up by cops and the leaders arrested more and more. Even its our first ammendment right to protest peacefully.

If "they" really wanted to take away your First Amendment rights, there would be two things different about this situation:
1. There wouldn't be any "First Amendment" on the books, and
2. You most likely wouldn't be able to access this forum in the first place.

But, since neither of there are the case, we have rights. Let's talk about them! :clap:
As for American police being jackasses in protests, Ferguson was instigated by rioters and peaceful protests with no arrests are happening all over the States.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:58 pm

20 Dragon Riders wrote:Oh ha ha
Scomagia wrote:Take off the tinfoil.


Im just pointing out that peaceful protests were broken up by cops and the leaders arrested more and more. Even its our first ammendment right to protest peacefully.

You can presumably provide sources for these events?
Last edited by Scomagia on Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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