Goldfish Bowls Ban Yes/No?

[Urran]

Oh fish bowls, how I hate them so. As stated in an earlier thread, I'll rarely post my true beliefs, however, this topic is very dear to my heart as an aquarist, I love my fish more than some people. This has been a topic of several papers of mine and I thought I would take it to NSG because it's not really something people give much thought to.

Here are the main reasons people buy these things:

cheap

looks nice right?

ignorance.

My arguments for why they should be considered animals cruelty (scientific mumbo jumbo dulled down a tad bit to make it easier to swallow.):

Small size:

This is a big concern (no pun intended), especially for goldfish. Despite what you may hear, the average goldfish (and most fancy strains) has the potential to grow to 12 inches or more. This is larger than the average fish bowl and being kept in cramped quarters will stress them. Goldfish need at least 30 gallons plus ten additional gallons for each additional fish to have proper swimming space. It's cruel to lock a large dog up in a crate for it's entire life, why is it okay for a fish?

Lack of filtration options:

Goldfish have poor digestive systems, far lack of better terms, they simply suck at eating, well, maybe not eating (the pigs) but you get what i mean. Lots of undigested material passes through their bodies and ends up in the water. It's hard to mount any form of filter on a fishbowl which leads to the build up of harmful chemical compounds in the water leading to a compromised immune system which makes way for disease or ammonia poisoning. Both are death sentences to most fancy strains like Ranchu's or Tosakins. Airstones do not count as filtration.

Gas exchange difficult:

Surprise! All life needs oxygen to survive. in the wild, gas is exchanged at the waters surface. In a fish bowl, little of the waters surface is exposed to the air outside. This, combined with the stagnate conditions caused by a lack of water movement (no filter), mean that gas exchange is difficult in the confines of a fish bowl. Oxygen starvation is a very real threat.

Fish, especially goldies, are intelligent:

The myths are false. Goldfish have been shown to have, not three second, but up to three month memory spans. This puts them on par with some dogs. They have been shown to able to differentiate between colors, sounds, and even individual handlers as well as develop their own personalities.

Dramatically shortens life span:

The average goldfish, depending on quality of genetics/strain, has the potential to exceed twenty years of age. The oldest living koi, a similar species, is 215 years old. However, because of the stress brought on by improper care, most goldfish don't even live to be 6. It's sad really.


I hope that i avoided sounding too bloggish. As I said, I want your opinion. It's not a very commonly brought up issue and I believe it deserves more attention.

Sources:
http://www.michigankoi.com/The-Oldest-L ... p-514.html

http://www.desktopgoldfish.com/goldfish ... -bowls.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfish

http://www.goldfish-care.com/goldfish_facts.php

http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

[Margno]

I literally could not give less of a fuck about fish's feelings if I tried.

[Kalbana]

Oh fish bowls, how I hate them so. As stated in an earlier thread, I'll rarely post my true beliefs, however, this topic is very dear to my heart as an aquarist, I love my fish more than some people. This has been a topic of several papers of mine and I thought I would take it to NSG because it's not really something people give much thought to.

Here are the main reasons people buy these things:

cheap

looks nice right?

ignorance.

My arguments for why they should be considered animals cruelty (scientific mumbo jumbo dulled down a tad bit to make it easier to swallow.):

Small size:

This is a big concern (no pun intended), especially for goldfish. Despite what you may hear, the average goldfish (and most fancy strains) has the potential to grow to 12 inches or more. This is larger than the average fish bowl and being kept in cramped quarters will stress them. Goldfish need at least 30 gallons plus ten additional gallons for each additional fish to have proper swimming space. It's cruel to lock a large dog up in a crate for it's entire life, why is it okay for a fish?

Lack of filtration options:

Goldfish have poor digestive systems, far lack of better terms, they simply suck at eating, well, maybe not eating (the pigs) but you get what i mean. Lots of undigested material passes through their bodies and ends up in the water. It's hard to mount any form of filter on a fishbowl which leads to the build up of harmful chemical compounds in the water leading to a compromised immune system which makes way for disease or ammonia poisoning. Both are death sentences to most fancy strains like Ranchu's or Tosakins. Airstones do not count as filtration.

Gas exchange difficult:

Surprise! All life needs oxygen to survive. in the wild, gas is exchanged at the waters surface. In a fish bowl, little of the waters surface is exposed to the air outside. This, combined with the stagnate conditions caused by a lack of water movement (no filter), mean that gas exchange is difficult in the confines of a fish bowl. Oxygen starvation is a very real threat.

Fish, especially goldies, are intelligent:

The myths are false. Goldfish have been shown to have, not three second, but up to three month memory spans. This puts them on par with some dogs. They have been shown to able to differentiate between colors, sounds, and even individual handlers as well as develop their own personalities.

Dramatically shortens life span:

The average goldfish, depending on quality of genetics/strain, has the potential to exceed twenty years of age. The oldest living koi, a similar species, is 215 years old. However, because of the stress brought on by improper care, most goldfish don't even live to be 6. It's sad really.


I hope that i avoided sounding too bloggish. As I said, I want your opinion. It's not a very commonly brought up issue and I believe it deserves more attention.

Sources:
http://www.michigankoi.com/The-Oldest-L ... p-514.html

http://www.desktopgoldfish.com/goldfish ... -bowls.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfish

http://www.goldfish-care.com/goldfish_facts.php

http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

I applaud the effort put into this, but why is this even being discussed? Their FISH BOWLS!

[Urran]

Ah, but the term fish bowl is very misleading. They were developed in a time before we knew what the hell the nitrogen cycle was. Just because they SAY it's good for your fish, doesn't mean that it is. Given the fact that goldfish DO have the intelligence on par with most dogs I think should give them protection from animal cruelty as well.

I someone locked you up in a cramped, smelly space where you couldn't get enough air, wouldn't you want someone to care?

[Sun Wukong]

Ah, but the term fish bowl is very misleading. They were developed in a time before we knew what the hell the nitrogen cycle was. Just because they SAY it's good for your fish, doesn't mean that it is. Given the fact that goldfish DO have the intelligence on par with most dogs I think should give them protection from animal cruelty as well.

I someone locked you up in a cramped, smelly space where you couldn't get enough air, wouldn't you want someone to care?

Okay, now, that's just not true.

[Urran]

Actually, several studies have proven it. I think you just have a dog preference.

[Sun Wukong]

Actually, several studies have proven it. I think you just have a dog preference.

No. They haven't. And I don't.

[Urran]

Can you prove to me that fish intelligence is NOT on par with dog intelligence?

[Kalbana]

Actually, several studies have proven it. I think you just have a dog preference.

Link?

[Conserative Morality]

Fish are food, so the point is moot to me.

[Dooom35796821595]

Actually, several studies have proven it. I think you just have a dog preference.

No. They haven't. And I don't.

What if it depends on the dog, as my dog is may be less intelligent then a fish fried in batter and served with chips. Seriously my dog is really dumb, even the trainers admit it.

I personally preferred fish tanks, especially after ME2.

[Urran]

First There's this that I found in one of my (many) piles of magazine clippings I've got lying around

Angelo Bisazza, a professor in the Comparative Psychology Research Group at the University of Padova, told Discovery News that such research is "slowly unraveling the cognitive abilities of fish and, as for the case of numerical abilities, they often suggest that the capabilities of these creatures are not so dissimilar from those of the organisms (monkeys, rodents and pigeons) that have traditionally been employed for these studies."

And then there's these:

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_intelligence.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... onths.html

http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-mem ... mory-myth/

[The Scandinvans]

Can you prove to me that fish intelligence is NOT on par with dog intelligence?

It is your job, since you are making a claim which defies conventional wisdom, to provide evidence for your claim.

[Kalbana]

First There's this that I found in one of my (many) piles of magazine clippings I've got lying around

Angelo Bisazza, a professor in the Comparative Psychology Research Group at the University of Padova, told Discovery News that such research is "slowly unraveling the cognitive abilities of fish and, as for the case of numerical abilities, they often suggest that the capabilities of these creatures are not so dissimilar from those of the organisms (monkeys, rodents and pigeons) that have traditionally been employed for these studies."

And then there's these:

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_intelligence.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... onths.html

http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-mem ... mory-myth/

I was thinking more along the lines of a scientific journal

[The Scandinvans]

First There's this that I found in one of my (many) piles of magazine clippings I've got lying around

Angelo Bisazza, a professor in the Comparative Psychology Research Group at the University of Padova, told Discovery News that such research is "slowly unraveling the cognitive abilities of fish and, as for the case of numerical abilities, they often suggest that the capabilities of these creatures are not so dissimilar from those of the organisms (monkeys, rodents and pigeons) that have traditionally been employed for these studies."

And then there's these:

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_intelligence.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... onths.html

http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-mem ... mory-myth/

None of these even provides credence of your claim goldfish have a dog's level of intelligence. They merely seem to suggest they are not as stupid as people usually think.

[The Scandinvans]

First There's this that I found in one of my (many) piles of magazine clippings I've got lying around



And then there's these:

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_intelligence.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... onths.html

http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-mem ... mory-myth/

I was thinking more along the lines of a scientific journal

Something that is peer reviewed is quite nice.

[Sun Wukong]

Can you prove to me that fish intelligence is NOT on par with dog intelligence?

That's not how the burden of proof works.

[Urran]

Can you prove to me that fish intelligence is NOT on par with dog intelligence?

It is your job, since you are making a claim which defies conventional wisdom, to provide evidence for your claim.

Or lack thereof from my standpoint.

[Threlizdun]

First There's this that I found in one of my (many) piles of magazine clippings I've got lying around

Angelo Bisazza, a professor in the Comparative Psychology Research Group at the University of Padova, told Discovery News that such research is "slowly unraveling the cognitive abilities of fish and, as for the case of numerical abilities, they often suggest that the capabilities of these creatures are not so dissimilar from those of the organisms (monkeys, rodents and pigeons) that have traditionally been employed for these studies."

And then there's these:

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_intelligence.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... onths.html

http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-mem ... mory-myth/

And nowhere do they say they are as intelligent as dogs. It says the three second memory myth is wrong, but it sure as hell doesn't say they are as smart as dogs. Yes, fishbowls are cruel and do not provide a large enough environment for goldfish or species similar in size, but you can say that without making up ridiculous claims about their intelligence.

[Sun Wukong]

It is your job, since you are making a claim which defies conventional wisdom, to provide evidence for your claim.

Or lack thereof from my standpoint.

Buddy, I don't even disagree with you about fish tanks being, broadly, inhumane. But dogs can look up goldfish are not as smart as dogs, and you've given me no reason to think otherwise.

[Iron Confederation]

oh so that explains why my fish never lived very long when i was a kid

oh well, they don't do anything but swim around in the tank anyways. forgive me for not really caring much about something that can only swim and does absolutely nothing for me

[Dragoria]

Bigger, healthier tanks/cages/pens/enclosures for ALL the animals. And bigger pots/planters for the plants.
Better treatment and care for all the various lifeforms we choose to bring into our homes cannot be a bad thing.

[Saiwania]

A goldfish bowl ban won't really accomplish anything, it is just a feel good measure. Anyone can just buy some goldfish from the store and later dump it into any clear container however small in the privacy of their home.

[Empire of Narnia]

I hate them too, it's basically a death sentence for a fish. I don't think they are very popular nowadays though, lots of pet stores don't even sell them. I'm actually thinking about getting back into fish after a long hiatus. I'm aiming for a 75 gallon community tank.

[New Stinkonia]

Unfortunately, people choose to define animal "intelligence" through how well an animal can communicate with a human. Dogs are seen as intelligent for this reason, even though they are quite stupid and don't even pass the mirror test. What should be banned is fishing with hooks because despite what some think, it's been proven that fish feel pain. People don't respond to that because fish don't make sounds we can hear, I guess. But people are lazy and would rather not challenge their own world view.