Apologies for Mao?

[Orenica]

A dear friend of mine has recently discovered Communism, and is in the habit of contending that The Great Leap Forward was not the main cause of the Great Famine, and that the numbers dead in this were, in fact, 15 million or so (the PRC's figures). He essentially believes the PRC's version of events (weather being the main cause) and dismissses the work of journalists such as Yang Jisheng and historians such as Frank Dikötter.

What are your thoughts on this issue? Does anyone believe the PRC over these people? What are your experiences with apologism in general?

[Sebtopiaris]

Let's stick with the facts, not resort to apologism because we disagree with what the facts say.

[British Prussia]

It's like saying that your friend believes that we're all dead and life is just an illusion and that the Moon is a cheese satellite that aliens use to monitor our civilisation.

[Communal Ecotopia]

Most reliable estimates place the toll at about 30 million. I think Ditkoffer's numbers' are a bit extreme, but, like development theorist Amartya Sen, I tend to blame poor distribution more, or as much as bad weather, and lack of food. I tend not to pay apologists much mind, though I do see the Cultural Revolution in some positive lights as seen in the abolition of rank in areas like the armed forces. This does not, however, make up for it's horrors nor those of the Great Leap Forward.

[Planita]

Mao was one of the reason why my dad's family fled China, I am not exactly on his side.

[The Sotoan Union]

He is totally justified. Everyone knows the PRC has a long record of honest transparent records that are easily accessible and not altered or covered up in any way. It's not like a report on human rights abuses is published on them or anything.

[Orenica]

That's largely what I think about the whole thing. It's genuinely upsetting to have one's friends believe things like this. My hope is that he'll transition out of it (though I have argued with him extensively) in time. He was an anarchist before this, and lost that pretty quickly.

[British Prussia]

That's largely what I think about the whole thing. It's genuinely upsetting to have one's friends believe things like this. My hope is that he'll transition out of it (though I have argued with him extensively) in time. He was an anarchist before this, and lost that pretty quickly.

I know some people who think that Ebola was made by the American's to control Nigeria's population. No, not Africa, Nigeria. And that the Nigerian Health Minister had developed a cure for Ebola, but they're not sharing it because they fear the US's retribution because after all, it is a CIA project.

[Soselo]

I like Mao, he woke up and lived every day like a fucking rockstar.

[Orenica]

That's largely what I think about the whole thing. It's genuinely upsetting to have one's friends believe things like this. My hope is that he'll transition out of it (though I have argued with him extensively) in time. He was an anarchist before this, and lost that pretty quickly.

I know some people who think that Ebola was made by the American's to control Nigeria's population. No, not Africa, Nigeria. And that the Nigerian Health Minister had developed a cure for Ebola, but they're not sharing it because they fear the US's retribution because after all, it is a CIA project.

Woah, okay. But what would you do if someone you cared about developed these ideas, and wouldn't listen to any other opinion, claiming (vaguely) that all other voices were biased because of capitalism?

You can imagine my distress. What do YOU do with these people?

[British Prussia]

I know some people who think that Ebola was made by the American's to control Nigeria's population. No, not Africa, Nigeria. And that the Nigerian Health Minister had developed a cure for Ebola, but they're not sharing it because they fear the US's retribution because after all, it is a CIA project.

Woah, okay. But what would you do if someone you cared about developed these ideas, and wouldn't listen to any other opinion, claiming (vaguely) that all other voices were biased because of capitalism?

You can imagine my distress. What do YOU do with these people?

Go out for drinks with them, argue with them, go home.
Friends forever

[Empire of Narnia]

Chairman Mao Zedong was a great man. The Capitalist lies about him cannot hide his achievements.

[Soselo]

Chairman Mao Zedong was a great man. The Capitalist lies about him cannot hide his achievements.

How big was it?

[Conserative Morality]

People who follow such beliefs are usually in a state of doublethink not unlike the position of the CPUSA before the fall of the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union calls for war, you call for war. When the Soviet Union calls for peace with our fascist friends, you call for peace with your fascist friends. And when it calls for war again; you don't question, you just follow the goddamn party line.

Facts won't convince them. Only their nearly-divine idol will. The day the PRC agrees with the rest of the world's version of the Great Leap Forward is the day your friend will pull a 180 without so much a second thought.

[Mushet]

People who follow such beliefs are usually in a state of doublethink not unlike the position of the CPUSA before the fall of the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union calls for war, you call for war. When the Soviet Union calls for peace with our fascist friends, you call for peace with your fascist friends. And when it calls for war again; you don't question, you just follow the goddamn party line.

Facts won't convince them. Only their nearly-divine idol will. The day the PRC agrees with the rest of the world's version of the Great Leap Forward is the day your friend will pull a 180 without so much a second thought.

Honestly it looks like some kid who's experimenting with different beliefs without fully developed critical thinking, OP said his friend was a self proclaimed Anarchist not long before, and this friend probably wasn't very convincing in that either.

[Fezkovia]

Holodomor and the Great Famine, both caused by self-labeled Communists who tried to collectivize their industry for the betterment of the people.

Great job, guys. Way to give Communism a good name.

[The Liberated Territories]

Chairman Mao Zedong was a great man. The Capitalist lies about him cannot hide his achievements.

Does killing over 50 million of his own countrymen count as an achievement?

[Blazedtown]

Chairman Mao Zedong was a great man. The Capitalist lies about him cannot hide his achievements.

Does killing over 50 million of his own countrymen count as an achievement?

That's 500 achievement points on Xbox live.

[Empire of Narnia]

Chairman Mao Zedong was a great man. The Capitalist lies about him cannot hide his achievements.

Does killing over 50 million of his own countrymen count as an achievement?

He didn't do that. The famines were not his fault. China has sadly has famines for hundreds of years, and it is actually Mao's policies that put an end to that.

[Distruzio]

People who follow such beliefs are usually in a state of doublethink not unlike the position of the CPUSA before the fall of the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union calls for war, you call for war. When the Soviet Union calls for peace with our fascist friends, you call for peace with your fascist friends. And when it calls for war again; you don't question, you just follow the goddamn party line.

Facts won't convince them. Only their nearly-divine idol will. The day the PRC agrees with the rest of the world's version of the Great Leap Forward is the day your friend will pull a 180 without so much a second thought.

To be fair, both the CPUSA and the CPSU operated under democratic centralist tenets. So, after an internal democratic debate the party line was held no matter what.

[Estado Nacional]

Woah, okay. But what would you do if someone you cared about developed these ideas, and wouldn't listen to any other opinion, claiming (vaguely) that all other voices were biased because of capitalism?

I wouldn't talk about politics with this person. It's simple and it works all the time.

[Trygg]

I know some people who think that Ebola was made by the American's to control Nigeria's population. No, not Africa, Nigeria. And that the Nigerian Health Minister had developed a cure for Ebola, but they're not sharing it because they fear the US's retribution because after all, it is a CIA project.

Woah, okay. But what would you do if someone you cared about developed these ideas, and wouldn't listen to any other opinion, claiming (vaguely) that all other voices were biased because of capitalism?

You can imagine my distress. What do YOU do with these people?

I take them out for a drink, then drive off, leaving them stranded to foot the bill.

[Ashmoria]

A dear friend of mine has recently discovered Communism, and is in the habit of contending that The Great Leap Forward was not the main cause of the Great Famine, and that the numbers dead in this were, in fact, 15 million or so (the PRC's figures). He essentially believes the PRC's version of events (weather being the main cause) and dismissses the work of journalists such as Yang Jisheng and historians such as Frank Dikötter.

What are your thoughts on this issue? Does anyone believe the PRC over these people? What are your experiences with apologism in general?

your friend needs to read this biography of mao. http://www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Ch ... +biography

it is likely in your local library.

he might want to look at this boo (probably not in your local library) http://www.amazon.com/Tombstone-Great-C ... inw_strp_1

mao was a shitty communist and no one ought to model their communist beliefs after his.

[The Liberated Territories]

Does killing over 50 million of his own countrymen count as an achievement?

He didn't do that. The famines were not his fault. China has sadly has famines for hundreds of years, and it is actually Mao's policies that put an end to that.

Really? I thought the Chinese liberalization in the 1970s put an end to that. It was during the 1960s that Mao's had ruled and it was during the 1960s that the Great Famine happened. Connection? And consequentially, the collectivization of agriculture had turned the peasants into literal slaves to those who lived in the city, and were basically under house arrest and forced to live in collectives in which people were promised their share, but it never came. Mass starvation enshrewed. Economic mismanagement, partially aided by the inappropriate distribution of food and the inability to effectively micromanage surplus, was the biggest part of it, imo. Other factors, such as the elimination of predators and bad agricultural methods, had also contributed to the famine, although not as much as the central planning had.

TD;LR Central planning sucks.

[Bojikami]

Meh, I really can't be swayed either way. It could have been weather, it could have been malevolence, either way people still died.