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No Knock Warrants and Self Defense - Racism at Work

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Galloism
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No Knock Warrants and Self Defense - Racism at Work

Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:20 pm

I'll go on record and say I don't care for no knock warrants. They should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances, but we're seeing them as a regular event.

I think they're dangerous - to both citizens and the police.

As has been evidenced:

http://thefreethoughtproject.com//prose ... nock-raid/

On Friday, May 9, 2014, just after 5:30am in Killeen, Texas, Marvin Louis Guy was the target of a no knock raid.

The officers were looking for drugs, yet none were found in the home. There was some questionable paraphernalia, but nothing indicative of drug dealing- or anything damning enough for a reasonable person to feel the need to take an officers life.

Unfortunately the danger of no-knock raids is real. just ask the parents of baby Bou or the family of Detective Dinwiddie.

Detective Dinwiddie was one of the SWAT officers who broke into Guy’s house on May 9th, based on a seemingly bogus informant tip off about drugs being dealt from the home.

Likely alarmed by the men climbing through his windows at 5:30 in the morning, Guy and his wife sought to protect themselves and their property and fired on the intruders- in self defense.

Dinwiddie, along with three other officers were shot while attempting to breach the windows to the home, according to the department’s press release.

“The TRU was beginning to breach the window when the 49 year old male inside, opened fire striking four officers.”
Since the shooting occurred during the break in, a reasonable person would assume they had not yet identified themselves as police officers. How on earth is this not self defense?

Prosecutors are now seeking the death penalty against Guy. He is charged with capital murder in Dinwiddie’s death, as well as three counts of attempted capital murder for firing on the other officers during the shootout, injuring one other officer. Body armor protected others who were hit.

This announcement, given by the prosecutor in open court, comes one day after Governor Rick Perry presented Dinwiddie’s family with the Star of Texas award. This award is given out each year to police and first responders killed or injured in the line of duty, the Killeen Daily Herald reported.

Let’s flash back to December, in Texas, for a moment.

On December 19, also just before 6am, Burleson County Sgt. Adam Sowders, led a team in a no-knock marijuana raid on Henry Goedrich Magee’s mobile home in Somerville.

Also startled by these intruders, Magee opened fire, fearing for the safety of himself and his then pregnant girlfriend.

Sowders was unfortunately killed among the chaos.

In February, just a few months before the fateful raid in Killeen, all charges against Magee were dropped when a Texas grand jury refused to indict, based on them believing he feared for his safety and that this was a reasonable act of self defense.

With such similar circumstances and such intensely opposite repercussions one cant help but try to find the differences.

Most obvious? Guy is black and Magee is white. Also, take note of the difference in photos used in the press.

<pictures - see article>

Self defense is a right for all, and no knock raids not only pose a danger to dogs, children, and communities in general- but officers as well. Maybe its time to
re-think that strategy.

We need to end the war on drugs and put an end to this violence.

Estimates show that the total number of SWAT deployments across the country has increased from a few hundred per year in the 1970s, to a few thousand per year in the 80s, and in 2010, the Washington Times reported estimates being as high as 50,000 per year.

Many of these are for nonviolent misdemeanor drug offenses, not big time drug kingpins. Should we really be risking lives of citizens and officers, over what someone chooses to put into their own body?

For more information on botched paramilitary raids, check out this shocking and interactive map from Radley Balko.


TL:DR, in two separate incidents which are functionally identical, police raided a house without announcing themselves. Thee homeowners opened fire - thinking they were the victim of a home invasion.

In the first case, a white guy shot and killed a police officer in a no-knock raid. The grand jury refused to indict because of the reasonable cause for self-defense.

In the second, a black guy shot and killed a police officer in a no-knock raid. He's facing the death penalty.

There's also a handy map of botched raids.

No knock raids should be reserved for when there is known heavy resistance expected - not every tom dick and harry they thing might have a joint. This is hazardous. We have 310 million legal guns in the United States. Every time police go into a house without announcing themselves as police, they're risking someone getting killed over a misunderstanding - officers included.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lordieth
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Postby Lordieth » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:25 pm

Yet another example of why the police just cannot be trusted with discretionary powers. The level of stupidity is unfathomable. Excessive force much? If someone's trying to break into your home at 5:30am in the morning, of course you're going to assume it's a burglar.
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Postby Gauthier » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:26 pm

Everyone knows Castle Doctrine don't apply to darkies. *nod*
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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:29 pm

Holy shit Mr. Police Officer, if you're going to try and break in without my knowledge, of course im going to assume you're a burglar.

If police want to conduct no-Knock operations and raids, they can, however they shouldn't be suprised when law abiding citizens shoot at them, thinking they're crooks.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:31 pm

Have to agree that no-knock raids are extremely dangerous; not only do they often make the person inside think they are under attack (quite reasonably, since, you know, they are under attack), but they hit the wrong address surprisingly much.
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Postby Gauthier » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Everything is bigger in Texas. Especially racism.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
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Postby Alyakia » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:32 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:Have to agree that no-knock raids are extremely dangerous; not only do they often make the person inside think they are under attack (quite reasonably, since, you know, they are under attack), but they hit the wrong address surprisingly much.


i'm just surprised there were no dead dogs this time
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Postby Seno Zhou Varada » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:34 pm

Seriously no knock raids just for drugs? Why am I thinking the SWAT officers are using the drugs they take...
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Postby Omigeltar » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:40 pm

No-knock raids should be reserved for those who have previously fired upon law enforcement. Those people will fire regardless, so knocking just loses the element of surprise. On other people though it is really just a way to cause a violent confrontation in situations that may have otherwise ended nonviolently.

Also, I think the OP forgot the link to the article.
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Postby Exxosia » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:40 pm

I think that no knock raids should be banned outright. There are no reasons for them because anything that would warrant one would also be so immensely dangerous to everyone involved that a no knock raid would be suicidally reckless to attempt, i.e.; you know they have weapons, explosives, and are crazed militants.

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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:41 pm

I'd be curious if Magee's prosecutors also pursued the death penalty on a related note...

Guy's grand jury had better decline to charge him. No-knock raids are becoming far too prevalent an enforcement procedure for simple drug enforcement even when there is little to no suggestion of danger to the officers involved.

Guy was perfectly justified. On another related note...
Last edited by Occupied Deutschland on Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:41 pm

Omigeltar wrote:No-knock raids should be reserved for those who have previously fired upon law enforcement. Those people will fire regardless, so knocking just loses the element of surprise. On other people though it is really just a way to cause a violent confrontation in situations that may have otherwise ended nonviolently.

Also, I think the OP forgot the link to the article.

Sorry. Fixed.
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Postby Des-Bal » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:42 pm

No knock raids create a situation where armed people force their way into residence with no indication that they are doing so in a legal and official capacity. The danger avoided by no knock raids (a situation where evidence is lost) is substantially less than the danger created (a situation where deadly force against an officer of the law is a reasonable course of action).
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Omigeltar
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Postby Omigeltar » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:43 pm

Galloism wrote:
Omigeltar wrote:No-knock raids should be reserved for those who have previously fired upon law enforcement. Those people will fire regardless, so knocking just loses the element of surprise. On other people though it is really just a way to cause a violent confrontation in situations that may have otherwise ended nonviolently.

Also, I think the OP forgot the link to the article.

Sorry. Fixed.


Oh, those images are terrible. That definitely adds a layer of racism, or at least unequal treatment, to the issue as well. Great.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:47 pm

Another example from a few years ago:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/2 ... 67020.html
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Postby Gauthier » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:48 pm

Omigeltar wrote:
Galloism wrote:Sorry. Fixed.


Oh, those images are terrible. That definitely adds a layer of racism, or at least unequal treatment, to the issue as well. Great.


It's a gigantic piece of s'more where a bunch of marshmallows are lynching the piece of chocolate.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:48 pm

Has Guy's case been presented to a grand jury?
If not, it might be a bit early for an exact comparison, since Magee was cleared by the jury but still brought on charges, similar to how Guy is being processed (if the case hasn't been presented, I can't seem to figure that out).
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:52 pm

Occupied Deutschland wrote:Has Guy's case been presented to a grand jury?
If not, it might be a bit early for an exact comparison, since Magee was cleared by the jury but still brought on charges, similar to how Guy is being processed (if the case hasn't been presented, I can't seem to figure that out).

He was indicted by the Grand Jury.
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Postby Lordieth » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:53 pm

Gauthier wrote:
Omigeltar wrote:
Oh, those images are terrible. That definitely adds a layer of racism, or at least unequal treatment, to the issue as well. Great.


It's a gigantic piece of s'more where a bunch of marshmallows are lynching the piece of chocolate.


That's racist. Racist and delicious.
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:54 pm

Ah, the militarization of police, racism, and racism all in one instance! America.
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Omigeltar
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Postby Omigeltar » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:55 pm

Gauthier wrote:
Omigeltar wrote:
Oh, those images are terrible. That definitely adds a layer of racism, or at least unequal treatment, to the issue as well. Great.


It's a gigantic piece of s'more where a bunch of marshmallows are lynching the piece of chocolate.


Damn, now I am hungry for equal legal treatment, police competence AND S'MORES.
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Postby Eleanor Ritas » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:57 pm

The ostensible safeguard in this system I would've hoped would've been sufficient information and diligent investigation subsequently vetted thoroughly and conscientiously by a judge before signing the warrant.

I get the feeling it's more like:

"You have reached the voice mail of Judge Bedford. I am out of chambers right now, please contact my clerk with any urgent matters. If you need a no-knock warrant against an alleged negro crack-slinger, please email me at honorablenbedford@court.gov and the autoreply will send you an approval. If you're calling about the fishtank on craigslit, it has been sold."
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:59 pm

Galloism wrote:
Occupied Deutschland wrote:Has Guy's case been presented to a grand jury?
If not, it might be a bit early for an exact comparison, since Magee was cleared by the jury but still brought on charges, similar to how Guy is being processed (if the case hasn't been presented, I can't seem to figure that out).

He was indicted by the Grand Jury.

Well then, nevermind-you-me, comparison wholly valid. I was grasping for a straw of sense and just get smacked in the face with straightforward senselessness.

It seems like SWAT jumping at every 'informant's' words is a problematic pattern as well. I recall the earlier instance where a baby was flashbanged and a few others I don't recall details of where these raids were precipitated solely by informant say-so, which isn't exactly a gold standard. In fact, it seems like it'd be a rather shitty standard.
Last edited by Occupied Deutschland on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Central Slavia » Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:03 pm

Both cases were completely justified.
If the police fail to identify themselves as such, they can't reasonably expect a different reaction to, well, any other burglar.

No knock warrants have a place, but that place should be organized crime hideout cleanups and as was said, arresting people with a history of firing at police officers who ID'd themselves.
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Postby WestRedMaple » Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:04 pm

For the most part, these raids are both idiotic and often a violation of the rights of the people they target.

In an effort to be 'safe', police agencies are creating situations where the reasonable and justified response is to shoot at officers. Many of those targeted haven't done anything wrong, but even among hardened criminals, many will surrender if you make it known you are a law-enforcement officer.

Sure, some of them end up okay. In others, entirely innocent people are killed or locked up in prison for exercising their right to defend themselves all for exactly no gain.

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