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Too Reliant On The Few?

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Arkolon
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Too Reliant On The Few?

Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:31 am

The principle behind a flat tax is that every working individual should contribute the same proportion of their labour to the state, and it is diametrically opposed to a progressive tax, where the richer strata contribute a larger proportion of their labour to the state. Apparently, some say, this is justified because rich people don’t spend all of their money, and state-funded institutions are intrinsically better than capital laying around in banks.

Most countries have progressive taxes, with a small fraction of governments using flat fiscal policies to finance themselves. Although progressive taxation definitely has its merits (as well as considerable drawbacks), waves of economic turbulence in the past few decades have left voters more comfortable with even higher rates of tax for the richer, and richest, strata of income-earners. What this has ended up with, though, is an extreme broadening of the tax base, and budgets becoming far too reliable on the very few.

Compared to 35 years ago, today’s 1% contribute almost three times as much in Britain and the US, where the UK budget relies on the British 1% for 28% of income tax receipts, and the US budget 46%. Meanwhile, over 40% of American households do not pay any income tax, and in the UK 1.3m jobs have been created since 2009, but the tax base has removed the income tax burden on 2.2m income-earners in the same time. This concentration is equally found for corporate taxes, I quote from The Economist, where 830 British firms account for 50% of corporate tax receipts, and in the US five industries that make up a third of the country’s companies account for 81% of corporate tax receipts. This is due to two factors: primarily, there are far too many deductions and tax loopholes, and secondly, although this applies more to corporate tax revenue, companies have figured out ways to shift profits abroad to pay lower taxes elsewhere.

This doesn’t seem like a problem if the economic clock keeps on ticking normally, but George Osborne, Britain’s Chancellor of the Exchequer, is having some trouble defending Britain’s latest “tax-free recovery”, where the economy’s pace has quickened from a slump just a year ago, and unemployment has been shrinking just as fast, but income-tax revenue is falling even without any tax cuts.

A second article from the same issue goes on, the UK’s marginal tax is too broad and too progressive, fuelling its unhealthy reliance on richer income earners. An accountant making £28,000 ($45,600) pays four times as much income tax as does a cleaner making £14,000 ($22,800), notes the article, adding that “reverse fiscal drag”, where inflation outpaces wage growth, leads workers to be put into smaller tax brackets, paying less than they otherwise would have. This makes tax revenues much, much more volatile. The state has set more and more regulation on the City, for instance, which conversely led to smaller tax revenues after bankers had to be laid off and bonuses cut.

Britain’s cost-of-living crisis comes into play here as well, where Labour MPs are keen to highlight stagnating wage growth in the UK. This financial year, there has only been a 0.1% increase in weekly earnings, even if the economy is roaring and there is a huge demand for jobs. Personally, I think we can attribute low wage growth to the way in which the employment recovery is structured: the UK cut business taxes and expanded its tax-free bases, which made companies more inclined to hire and workers more inclined to work. A higher demand for workers traditionally means higher wages, but self-employment and zero-hours contracts have replaced traditional jobs. As time progresses, however, I am sure that there will be a progression as well in wages, seeing as more people would climb the ladder into better-paying positions, thus annulling the current cost-of-living crisis. Secondly, I would like to see the narrowing tax base made more compact and “flatter”, making the national budget less susceptible to huge changes depending on economic fluctuations.

So, NSG, what do you make of this? How progressive is the ideal income tax system? How much should the 1% pay more than the other 99%? Should they even pay more at all? And how about your opinion on Britain’s job-rich, tax-poor recovery? Corporate tax is the subject of a different debate, however, and we are going to concentrate more on how too much progressivity in income tax makes for terrible fiscal policy, and how the best tax policy is that which is levied more or less equally all around the economy. Not necessarily flat, no, but of one or two, say, tax brackets at the most, I say.

One source, and I couldn't quite find the second one, but there are less numbers for that one.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:50 am

I don't know about the exact math, but I think the rich should pay as much tax as necessary to completely eliminate poverty, homelessness, and lack of access to basic human rights like healthcare.

The ideal tax system is whenever this goal is reached.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ashmoria » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:54 am

basically what IM said.

when we get back to full employment and wages go up, the amount of tax paid by the middle class will go up. if they do particularly well we can raise taxes on the middle class as part of eliminating inequality.

until then taxes are like bank robbing--you go where the money is.
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Postby Avenio » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:57 am

Arkolon wrote:Compared to 35 years ago, today’s 1% contribute almost three times as much in Britain and the US, where the UK budget relies on the British 1% for 28% of income tax receipts, and the US budget 46%.


Considering that the relative income of the top 1% earners are many times richer than they were in the 70's, I can't say I'm shedding all that much tears for them. They're making hundreds of times more money than the bottom 10% of earners - why shouldn't they pay a proportional share?

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:01 am

With the way the British economy (doesn't) work due to decades of slash and burn economic policy, money is increasingly concentrated in the hands of the few, geographically concentrated in London and structurally in the finance sector. With a concentrated distribution of wealth, the "burden" of financing the services that it's politically unacceptable to abolish will naturally fall increasingly on those at the top.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:03 am

The principle behind a progressive tax is that tax is levied on disposable income.

A certain amount of income is necessary for survival - this should not be taxed. This is also why we have certain exemptions, deductions, and credits for dependents.

As income increases, the amount of affordable luxuries also increases, and the tax level should also increase relative to that.
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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:40 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:I don't know about the exact math, but I think the rich should pay as much tax as necessary to completely eliminate poverty, homelessness

Which the apparently-satanic 1% can do on their own. There is a marked correlation between GDP growth and poverty reduction, as well as a mirroring effect on the number of homeless people. More economic freedom, a fancy way of saying deregulation, has also a marked correlation between itself and GDP growth. Bloating up taxes to fund poverty-reducing schemes (which more often than not don't even reduce poverty) might tackle of symptom of a choking economy. It definitely isn't curing it.

The poverty-reducing schemes that do have merit, however, are the EITC in the US, which is very similar to a negative income tax system. Expanding the EITC to resemble more of a NIT, ie including the unemployed, bigger benefits, less deductions and more straightforwardness, as a replacement to the bulk of balkanised welfare programs as we know them today is probably a far more preferable system.

and lack of access to basic human rights like healthcare.

There is no basic human right to anything. There are negative, or liberty, rights, (rights to the freedom from), and these are basic human rights. There is no inherent human right to healthcare, the same way there is no inherent human right to using free massages or helpdesk use. Healthcare is a service, not a right.

The ideal tax system is whenever this goal is reached.

Around the 0% mark, I'm guessing, then?
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:41 am

Ashmoria wrote:basically what IM said.

when we get back to full employment and wages go up, the amount of tax paid by the middle class will go up. if they do particularly well we can raise taxes on the middle class as part of eliminating inequality.

until then taxes are like bank robbing--you go where the money is.

Why would you want to eliminate inequality? Not only is that impossible, but it's not even favourable in any perspective unless income equality is the only metric you want to measure effectiveness by.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:44 am

Arkolon wrote:
The ideal tax system is whenever this goal is reached.

Around the 0% mark, I'm guessing, then?

Is the lag bad on trans-universe internet connections?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:46 am

Avenio wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Compared to 35 years ago, today’s 1% contribute almost three times as much in Britain and the US, where the UK budget relies on the British 1% for 28% of income tax receipts, and the US budget 46%.


Considering that the relative income of the top 1% earners are many times richer than they were in the 70's, I can't say I'm shedding all that much tears for them. They're making hundreds of times more money than the bottom 10% of earners - why shouldn't they pay a proportional share?

35 years ago was closer to the 80s than to the rest of the 70s, and the 80s were a time when income inequality grew at a much faster rate than before. In 1979, the Gini index in the US was around 0.36, but sure.
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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:47 am

Galloism wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Around the 0% mark, I'm guessing, then?

Is the lag bad on trans-universe internet connections?

Lag wouldn't be an effect in this case, though. This would have only been witty if any of it was applicable and made remote sense.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:48 am

Arkolon wrote:
Galloism wrote:Is the lag bad on trans-universe internet connections?

Lag wouldn't be an effect in this case, though. This would have only been witty if any of it was applicable and made remote sense.

Just because you didn't get the joke doesn't mean it's not funny.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:49 am

The ideal tax rate is 0%, of course. And not just for the ultrarich or super poor.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:50 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:The ideal tax rate is 0%, of course. And not just for the ultrarich or super poor.

I see that routers have been invented in that universe as well.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Postby Tyrinth » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:51 am

Galloism wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Lag wouldn't be an effect in this case, though. This would have only been witty if any of it was applicable and made remote sense.

Just because you didn't get the joke doesn't mean it's not funny.

No. It's simply not funny.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:53 am

Galloism wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:The ideal tax rate is 0%, of course. And not just for the ultrarich or super poor.

I see that routers have been invented in that universe as well.


I fixed your transmission antennae for you without your consent.. Now you have to pay me 500,000,000 spacedollars or go to jail.

Pay up.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:54 am

Tyrinth wrote:
Galloism wrote:Just because you didn't get the joke doesn't mean it's not funny.

No. It's simply not funny.

A zero percent tax rate would leave us without courts, military, police, fire, safe food, medical care for the elderly and poor, unemployment benefits, and all the other things necessary for our first world economy to thrive.

Calling a 0% tax rate "ideal" must mean you are from a universe totally different from ours where there's no such thing as an externiality.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:54 am

Galloism wrote:The principle behind a progressive tax is that tax is levied on disposable income.

A certain amount of income is necessary for survival - this should not be taxed. This is also why we have certain exemptions, deductions, and credits for dependents.

A bracket where anyone making under a certain amount with a tax rate of 0% makes the tax system functionally progressive, even if everyone above that mark is taxed at the same, flat rate. Some sort of NIT/expanded EITC would also be an apt substitute to an exponentially-progressive tax system.

As income increases, the amount of affordable luxuries also increases, and the tax level should also increase relative to that.

Wouldn't a VAT on luxuries be a better alternative, then, too? Someone making $35,000 would spend, say, about $12,000 on rent, $10,000 on necessities and the rest on affordable luxuries: the $13,000 with a 30% VAT would correspond to be a functional 11% tax on income, which is somewhat acceptable, no?
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:55 am

Galloism wrote:
Tyrinth wrote:No. It's simply not funny.

A zero percent tax rate would leave us without courts, military, police, fire, safe food, medical care for the elderly and poor, unemployment benefits, and all the other things necessary for our first world economy to thrive.

Calling a 0% tax rate "ideal" must mean you are from a universe totally different from ours where there's no such thing as an externiality.


Guess what? We had courts, police, and military years before the income tax. Try again.
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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:55 am

Galloism wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Lag wouldn't be an effect in this case, though. This would have only been witty if any of it was applicable and made remote sense.

Just because you didn't get the joke doesn't mean it's not funny.

Trying even harder isn't going to make what you said any funnier, but I digress.
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Postby Arkolon » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:56 am

Galloism wrote:
Tyrinth wrote:No. It's simply not funny.

A zero percent tax rate would leave us without courts, military, police, fire, safe food, medical care for the elderly and poor, unemployment benefits, and all the other things necessary for our first world economy to thrive.

Calling a 0% tax rate "ideal" must mean you are from a universe totally different from ours where there's no such thing as an externiality.

A 0% income tax. The word "income" seems to be what you're missing, here.
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:58 am

Arkolon wrote:
Avenio wrote:
Considering that the relative income of the top 1% earners are many times richer than they were in the 70's, I can't say I'm shedding all that much tears for them. They're making hundreds of times more money than the bottom 10% of earners - why shouldn't they pay a proportional share?

35 years ago was closer to the 80s than to the rest of the 70s, and the 80s were a time when income inequality grew at a much faster rate than before. In 1979, the Gini index in the US was around 0.36, but sure.


Thank you for helping to prove my point.

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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:58 am

Arkolon wrote:
Galloism wrote:The principle behind a progressive tax is that tax is levied on disposable income.

A certain amount of income is necessary for survival - this should not be taxed. This is also why we have certain exemptions, deductions, and credits for dependents.

A bracket where anyone making under a certain amount with a tax rate of 0% makes the tax system functionally progressive, even if everyone above that mark is taxed at the same, flat rate. Some sort of NIT/expanded EITC would also be an apt substitute to an exponentially-progressive tax system.


It's insufficient to maintain our needs.

As income increases, the amount of affordable luxuries also increases, and the tax level should also increase relative to that.

Wouldn't a VAT on luxuries be a better alternative, then, too? Someone making $35,000 would spend, say, about $12,000 on rent, $10,000 on necessities and the rest on affordable luxuries: the $13,000 with a 30% VAT would correspond to be a functional 11% tax on income, which is somewhat acceptable, no?


No, because not all disposable income is spent on luxuries. Some is used to create more disposable income. Which then is then used to create more disposable income. This is not a bad thing. However, without an income tax, this is a tax free wealth collection.

Many luxuries are also purchased internationally. For instance, if I make a million dollars and buy a mansion in Aruba, I effectively bought a huge luxury tax free.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Postby Skappola » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:59 am

You know, if those Libertarian Islands for the Super-Rich ever become a thing, they could really collapse multiple economies, judging by these numbers.

I don't believe we are overly reliant on the top levels of wealth, since we are still able to get away with having such massive amounts of our budgets reliant on the top 1% without major repercussions. Until said repercussions appear (IF they appear), then that's when we cut back - but for now the benefits of high taxation of the top percentages of wealth far outweigh the drawbacks.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:59 am

Arkolon wrote:
Galloism wrote:A zero percent tax rate would leave us without courts, military, police, fire, safe food, medical care for the elderly and poor, unemployment benefits, and all the other things necessary for our first world economy to thrive.

Calling a 0% tax rate "ideal" must mean you are from a universe totally different from ours where there's no such thing as an externiality.

A 0% income tax. The word "income" seems to be what you're missing, here.

A sales tax or VAT has a higher negative effect on economies than income tax, as it decreases effective purchasing power more directly.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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