A Song of Sex and Gender

[Valica]

These are the current definitions for the two words:

Sex - either of the two main categories (m/f) into which humans and many living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
Gender - the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

We are going to, for the sake of this thread, assume there are only three sexes: male, female, and hermaphrodite.
This is based on the reproductive organs that one may possess.

As for gender, we aren't going to get into specifics about the multitudes of genders that people claim they belong to.
We are simply talking about gender as an idea.

So here's the question...

Is gender:
biological, as predetermined by sex (male or female);
- this option claims that your gender aligns to your bits n' pieces.
biological, as predetermined by genetics (non-binary);
- this option claims that gender is predetermined in your genes, whether you're asexual, bisexual, etc.
psychological, as determined by events in early life (non-binary);
- this option claims that gender is not genetic, but is predetermined by events that happened early in your life.
psychological, not predetermined, not a choice (non-binary);
- this option claims that gender is not genetic, is not predetermined, and is not a choice.
psychological, not predetermined, choice (non-binary);
- this option claims that gender is not genetic, is not predetermined, but is a choice.

Biological: of or relating to biology or living organisms.
Psychological: of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person.

Personally, I believe gender is psychological and is not really determined by many factors.
It just kind of happens... similar to our interests. We don't choose them, they just happen.

[Kelinfort]

Gender is a concept that has solely arisen in humans. Sexes in nature switch at times, especially in amphibians and fish. This undermines the idea of a predetermined gender, especially when male seahorses raise the children or frogs switch sex in times of communal need.

[Valica]

Gender is a concept that has solely arisen in humans. Sexes in nature switch at times, especially in amphibians and fish. This undermines the idea of a predetermined gender, especially when male seahorses raise the children or frogs switch sex in times of communal need.

But we are talking specifically about humans.

[Kromar]

I think gender has to be influenced by environment at a young age, or why would fucked up, traumatized people become trans more often? Transsexuality is a mental disorder and a tragedy.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Gender is a concept that has solely arisen in humans. Sexes in nature switch at times, especially in amphibians and fish. This undermines the idea of a predetermined gender, especially when male seahorses raise the children or frogs switch sex in times of communal need.

Fort, we're talking about Homo Sapiens here...

[Mallorea and Riva]

I think gender has to be influenced by environment at a young age, or why would fucked up, traumatized people become trans more often? Transsexuality is a mental disorder and a tragedy.

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Avenio]

Gender is a concept that has solely arisen in humans. Sexes in nature switch at times, especially in amphibians and fish. This undermines the idea of a predetermined gender, especially when male seahorses raise the children or frogs switch sex in times of communal need.

But we are talking specifically about humans.

Humans are animals. There's no point in talking about gender/sex in humans without taking into account other species.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

But we are talking specifically about humans.

Humans are animals. There's no point in talking about gender/sex in humans without taking into account other species.

...

No, I'm pretty sure talking about your biology should be limited to us, unless you wanna bring up other primates.

[Quintium]

Humans are animals. There's no point in talking about gender/sex in humans without taking into account other species.

A biologist will describe the pack behaviour of dogs, the reproduction of coyotes and the anatomy of rare fishes.
Why not limit this discussion to sex and gender in the human species?

[Page]

I'm going to take the easy way out and say gender factors are biopsychosocial and there are lots of known and unknown factors that influence one's gender identity.

[WestRedMaple]

Sex is physical.

Gender is part psychological and part choice. In order to be a gender, one must first choose to accept that there are certain psychological aspects of human beings unique to certain groups

[Avenio]

Humans are animals. There's no point in talking about gender/sex in humans without taking into account other species.

...

No, I'm pretty sure talking about your biology should be limited to us, unless you wanna bring up other primates.

You share 70% of your genes with a zebrafish. Why shouldn't we talk about their sex/gender in relation to humans?

[Quintium]

Why shouldn't we talk about their sex/gender in relation to humans?

Because they're not humans, so it makes very little sense talking about them when the discussion is about humans and served well enough by discussing only behavioral patterns in humans.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

...

No, I'm pretty sure talking about your biology should be limited to us, unless you wanna bring up other primates.

You share 70% of your genes with a zebrafish. Why shouldn't we talk about their sex/gender in relation to humans?

Just because we share a large amount of our DNA with another animal doesn't mean we are comparable at least by a small margin.

They're is a major difference between a fish and a mammal, you wanna bring up another animal? At least bring up something within our own order.

[Avenio]

Just because we share a large amount of our DNA with another animal doesn't mean we are comparable at least by a small margin.

Sure it is. It means that 70% of the coding genes that go into manufacturing our bodies are 100% identical. That's very comparable.

They're is a major difference between a fish and a mammal, you wanna bring up another animal? At least bring up something within our own order.

Why? Zebrafish have testes, we have testes. Zebrafish have ovaries, we have ovaries. Zebrafish have sexual dimorphism, we have sexual dimorphism. What's so different?

[Pope Joan]

The assumptions of the OP are invalid; gender is a spectrum.

http://www.tolerance.org/gender-spectrum

http://genderborngendermade.com/praise-reviews

Therefore the discussion based upon the premises of the OP cannot succeed.

[Grenartia]

He said transgenderism is a mental disorder, not gender dysphoria.

'Transgenderism' is more or less the same thing as gender dysphoria (or the more politically correct medical term 'gender identity disorder').

But there is a massive difference in connotations between "transsexuality is a mental illness" and "gender dysphoria is a mental illness".

Also, the correct term isn't "gender identity disorder", because that also carries certain negative connotations that being trans is inherently a bad thing. To say nothing of the fact that Gender Dysphoria and being trans are not inherently the same thing. You can be trans and not have dysphoria.

The assumptions of the OP are invalid; gender is a spectrum.

http://www.tolerance.org/gender-spectrum

http://genderborngendermade.com/praise-reviews

Therefore the discussion based upon the premises of the OP cannot succeed.

I'm pretty sure the OP mentions non-binary gender.

[Quintium]

Yeah that doesn't prove it's a mental illness.

What kind of a source are you looking for, then?

[Valica]

The assumptions of the OP are invalid; gender is a spectrum.

http://www.tolerance.org/gender-spectrum

http://genderborngendermade.com/praise-reviews

Therefore the discussion based upon the premises of the OP cannot succeed.

Literally 4 out of 6 of the poll options include non-binary genders.
Learn to read.

And even if I didn't agree with you, there is no proof that gender is a spectrum.
It's a belief or philosophy. Many people believe gender is binary, therefore not a spectrum.

That is why it is one of the poll options.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Please keep the discussion on topic, thanks.

[Neutraligon]

From the APA:
And According to the APA it no is counted among the disorders, since, like homosexuality, it does not inherently cause any issues. The dysphoria itself can be seen as a disorder, and the correct way to deal with said dysphoria is often transition.

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

Also, the ICD is looking to change the definitions they have. For instance they are looking to change transexualism to gender incongruence. In addition there is a proposal to remove that diagnosis from the chapter it is in (Mental Health Chapter) and place it in a new chapter.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140 ... nal-sm.pdf

[United Marxist Nations]

It is both, as psychology is greatly affected by biology. As for whether it is predetermined by genetics or the environment of the womb, that is much harder to say.

[Des-Bal]

I think it's most likely that gender is biological and determined by prenatal conditions. Apparent biological differences between ,for example, a cisgender man and a transgender woman don't support the idea that it's exclusively psychological but if it was simply genetic then the emergence of patterns would probably make that apparent with minimal study.

[Distruzionopolis]

I think gender has to be influenced by environment at a young age, or why would fucked up, traumatized people become trans more often? Transsexuality is a mental disorder and a tragedy.

You're talking about transgenderism is a dysphoria - no different from other psychological illnesses. It merits treatment. Treatment, in the case of transgendered individuals, includes hormones therapy and, if the situation calls for it, sexual reassignment surgery. I'm glad you recognize it as a tragedy. Tragedies deserve to be redressed.

[Constantinopolis]

I confess I am having trouble understanding how there could be such a thing as "gender" which is separate from sex.

When I say I am "male", I mean I have male sexual organs. In other words, I am of the male sex. That is all that the word "male" means in my mind. It refers to my sexual organs. Nothing else.

So, what is this separate thing called "gender" of which you speak?

If some people say they are "male" or "female" without talking about their sexual organs, then what are they talking about, exactly? Stereotypical male or female behavior? So a person of the male sex might say they are of the "female gender" if they happen to like things that society has characterized as "girly stuff"? That's a horrible failing on the part of society then, not an issue with the individual. Men who don't conform to stereotypical manliness and women who don't conform to stereotypical femininity should never feel that they have to take hormones or surgically alter their bodies in order to join their "true" gender.

Or am I not understanding the issue correctly?