Homeless Man Shoots Two People Dead

[Costa Fierro]

Police are hunting for John Henry Tully, 48, after a shooting that killed two and injured a third at an Ashburton Work and Income Office this morning.

A balaclava-clad man carrying a sawn-off shotgun entered the Work and Income office on the corner of Cass and Moore streets and fired several shots before fleeing on a bike.

The gunman was last seen heading towards the Ashburton river. Shots have reportedly been heard since coming from the river.

A source told Fairfax Media that one person was shot dead on site and another died at Ashburton Hospital.

Police confirmed that two people had been killed and the third person was in hospital.

Police have warned the public to stay indoors and to not approach the man. Schools are also in lockdown.

Source.

There's a lot of questions that need to be asked about this. Although one of them is "how the hell did he get a shotgun", that is not really relevant for this topic. The questions I am asking is "how bad are our social welfare services to prompt someone to do something like this" and "is this an isolated incident" and "does our social services system need massive reforms"? Now, for people outside of New Zealand, Work and Income New Zealand (WINZ) is the government agency that essentially manages your social welfare payments, especially the "Job Seeker's Benefit". Since the Job Seeker's Benefit was introduced, it's become somewhat notorious for being quite demeaning and it's been claimed it's driven people to consider suicide. I am unemployed and I have never been on it because the conditions are far too strict (especially in a place with not that many jobs, let alone ones I am qualified for). The man in question, according to this, was a homeless man. It begs the question why he was allowed to fall through the cracks and end up in a state of utter desperation that prompted him to shoot two people dead?

What say you NSG?

[The Serbian Empire]

I think there's a lot more than just social welfare programs gone wrong. I have heard in the US that a fair percent of the homeless have mental illness. I wouldn't be shocked if the homeless population in other countries is similar in nature.

[Greed and Death]

How did he get the shot gun ? He bought it like anyone else. He maybe sawed it off himself, or maybe bought it sawed off.

[Costa Fierro]

How did he get the shot gun ? He bought it like anyone else. He maybe sawed it off himself, or maybe bought it sawed off.

It doesn't really work like that. You can't simply go into a shop and buy a gun. You have to be licensed, have proof of address etc. But there is a lot more issues with this than guns.

[Scomagia]

How did he get the shot gun ? He bought it like anyone else. He maybe sawed it off himself, or maybe bought it sawed off.

It doesn't really work like that. You can't simply go into a shop and buy a gun. You have to be licensed, have proof of address etc. But there is a lot more issues with this than guns.

He could have owned it from before he was homeless, bought it illegally, or stolen it.

[Costa Fierro]

It doesn't really work like that. You can't simply go into a shop and buy a gun. You have to be licensed, have proof of address etc. But there is a lot more issues with this than guns.

He could have owned it from before he was homeless, bought it illegally, or stolen it.

He'd been living in a tent for the past three years after moving back from Australia where he'd been laid off in the job losses in the mines.

[The Serbian Empire]

How did he get the shot gun ? He bought it like anyone else. He maybe sawed it off himself, or maybe bought it sawed off.

It doesn't really work like that. You can't simply go into a shop and buy a gun. You have to be licensed, have proof of address etc. But there is a lot more issues with this than guns.

My post might suggest a bit more of why. There's a large population of mentally ill in the homeless population.

[Scomagia]

He could have owned it from before he was homeless, bought it illegally, or stolen it.

He'd been living in a tent for the past three years after moving back from Australia where he'd been laid off in the job losses in the mines.

Is there some reason that he couldn't have had the shotgun in the tent? He might have kept it somewhere else, like with friends or family.

[United Marxist Nations]

Have to applaud Costa for making this thread about the economics that cause such problems instead of guns.

That said, I think that this is a primary reason for the state to heavily subsidize housing, and to provide work to its citizens.

[Benuty]

How long before the stereotypical " the Mentally ill are totally, and absolutely a danger to others", and other myths from bullshitville?

[Costa Fierro]

Have to applaud Costa for making this thread about the economics that cause such problems instead of guns.

That said, I think that this is a primary reason for the state to heavily subsidize housing, and to provide work to its citizens.

There are state houses but there aren't enough of them around.

[Costa Fierro]

It doesn't really work like that. You can't simply go into a shop and buy a gun. You have to be licensed, have proof of address etc. But there is a lot more issues with this than guns.

My post might suggest a bit more of why. There's a large population of mentally ill in the homeless population.

That seems to be a bit of an assumption. New Zealand's homeless do have a history of being slightly eccentric, although most of it is through drug abuse.

[The Lithuanian-Surinamese Caliphate]

Have to applaud Costa for making this thread about the economics that cause such problems instead of guns.

That said, I think that this is a primary reason for the state to heavily subsidize housing, and to provide work to its citizens.

Agreed.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I'm not an expert on NZ's welfare system by any stretch of the imagination, so maybe it does need to be improved, but it was still this guy's personal decision to go on a shooting spree rather than handle his problems some other way. If someone is pilfering food because they have trouble scraping together the money to buy enough, or if they're squatting in a vacant apartment, I can understand blaming the welfare system. Those things are crimes, but they are also things that people might do because it is the only way they can see to get food or shelter. No one HAS TO go on a shooting spree to survive. Shooting people does not provide you with food or shelter -- especially not if you then flee from police. If you want to go to prison to get a roof over your head, then you need to get caught.

[Condunum]

How long before the stereotypical " the Mentally ill are totally, and absolutely a danger to others", and other myths from bullshitville?

Don't you have something better to do than bait stupid arguments? Such as actually discuss the questions the OP proposed?

[Condunum]

Police are hunting for John Henry Tully, 48, after a shooting that killed two and injured a third at an Ashburton Work and Income Office this morning.

A balaclava-clad man carrying a sawn-off shotgun entered the Work and Income office on the corner of Cass and Moore streets and fired several shots before fleeing on a bike.

The gunman was last seen heading towards the Ashburton river. Shots have reportedly been heard since coming from the river.

A source told Fairfax Media that one person was shot dead on site and another died at Ashburton Hospital.

Police confirmed that two people had been killed and the third person was in hospital.

Police have warned the public to stay indoors and to not approach the man. Schools are also in lockdown.

Source.

There's a lot of questions that need to be asked about this. Although one of them is "how the hell did he get a shotgun", that is not really relevant for this topic. The questions I am asking is "how bad are our social welfare services to prompt someone to do something like this" and "is this an isolated incident" and "does our social services system need massive reforms"? Now, for people outside of New Zealand, Work and Income New Zealand (WINZ) is the government agency that essentially manages your social welfare payments, especially the "Job Seeker's Benefit". Since the Job Seeker's Benefit was introduced, it's become somewhat notorious for being quite demeaning and it's been claimed it's driven people to consider suicide. I am unemployed and I have never been on it because the conditions are far too strict (especially in a place with not that many jobs, let alone ones I am qualified for). The man in question, according to this, was a homeless man. It begs the question why he was allowed to fall through the cracks and end up in a state of utter desperation that prompted him to shoot two people dead?

What say you NSG?

Far as I can tell this looks like a man long down on his luck taking a turn for the worse. I hope he comes to his senses and surrenders to the police.

How, though, did he remain unemployed for three years? What exactly were the causes of his constant unemployment, was it his doing?

[Zarodia]

If someone is pilfering food because they have trouble scraping together the money to buy enough, or if they're squatting in a vacant apartment, I can understand blaming the welfare system. Those things are crimes, but they are also things that people might do because it is the only way they can see to get food or shelter. No one HAS TO go on a shooting spree to survive.

Basically this. There is a massive difference between stealing food and shooting people. One can, potentially, be blamed on "the system" or on welfare requirements; the other can only be blamed on the person committing the act. Even if the system was so harsh, so asinine, so messed up that it was making him suicidal, that's no excuse to take other people with him, and OPs implication that it might be is fucking disgusting.

[The Serbian Empire]

My post might suggest a bit more of why. There's a large population of mentally ill in the homeless population.

That seems to be a bit of an assumption. New Zealand's homeless do have a history of being slightly eccentric, although most of it is through drug abuse.

Well, it seems like it seems be reasonable though.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Oh yeah, I heard about this. It's weird how a homeless man can afford a shot gun, although he may have stolen it, I'm not entirely sure.

[Gauthier]

Now if New Zealand's welfare requirements can drive a man to murder, just picture what would happen in the United States if certain people had their way and made welfare just as strict or worse, non-existent.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Now if New Zealand's welfare requirements can drive a man to murder, just picture what would happen in the United States if certain people had their way and made welfare just as strict or worse, non-existent.

Some parts of the US already have pretty useless welfare systems. It's probably why the US is so violent compared to other wealthy countries.

[Empire of Narnia]

Ever seen Hobo With a Shotgun?

[Costa Fierro]

Far as I can tell this looks like a man long down on his luck taking a turn for the worse. I hope he comes to his senses and surrenders to the police.

How, though, did he remain unemployed for three years? What exactly were the causes of his constant unemployment, was it his doing?

I don't know. The man used to work in Australia but was laid off from the mines there. He moved back and from what I gather, he couldn't find a job, he was probably either evicted or unable to pay his bills and ended up on the streets.

I've remained unemployed for nearly three years myself. There are few jobs out there for unqualified people and even fewer that want to take on someone of my age because they figure there is something "wrong" with me and would therefore be unemployable.

[Costa Fierro]

Now if New Zealand's welfare requirements can drive a man to murder, just picture what would happen in the United States if certain people had their way and made welfare just as strict or worse, non-existent.

In order to have welfare payments, you must actively be looking for a job and must apply for a minimum of five jobs per week (which is a struggle in places like where I live which has a population twice the size of Ashburton) and attend a training course which involves things like learning how to turn on a computer.

And if you do find a job, they throw a mock celebration and clap for you. It's demeaning.

[Kazirstan]

Ever seen Hobo With a Shotgun?

Damn it! Beat me to it!