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Destruction of historical/religious sites in the Middle East

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The Black Forrest
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Destruction of historical/religious sites in the Middle East

Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:57 pm

This is to split off a post from the Islam thread.

I read today about the nutbags of ISIS blowing up the Tomb of Jonah. Arch had some comments about other destruction going on that I didn't know about.

Thinking it's worthy of it's own thread. Here we go:

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Tomb of Jonah was blown up.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... t=20140725


Individuals concerned over what's happening to the archaeological heritage of Syria and Northern Iraq can consider contacting the Association for the Protection of Syrian Archaeology [APSA].

While focused on Syria, the expansion of ISIS into a cross-border organisation means APSA is now concerned to some extent about relevant activity on both sides of the border.

The before and after photograph in the following spoilered image of the Roman city of Apamea gives a small idea of what's happening. The extensive pitting in the 'after' photograph doesn't consist of small pitting or war damage.

Zooming closer, you can see that these are not small holes," Casana said. "Most measure 2 or 3 meters (7 to 10 feet) on the side, and many of them are bigger, suggesting that they're probably dug with the help of machinery."


http://www.livescience.com/42670-syrian ... ology.html

Image


As an archaeologist who's currently living and working in the Middle East, it's obviously a topic of particular interest to me.

I would, however, recommend that detailed discussion of the threat to Syria and Iraq's archaeological heritage be taken to a different thread unless the topic of discussion is narrowly limited to the impact of conservative interpretations of Sharia Law on cultural/archaeological heritage - see also what the Saudis are doing to Mecca and Medina - particularly as regards the Wahhabist-inspired destruction of sites and shrines associated with prophets and historically important Muslims on the basis that they encourage idolatry (Latter link: "The situation is so bad that the Washington based Gulf Institute estimates that 95 percent of the millennium old buildings in the two cities have been destroyed in the past twenty years").

That's a more appropriate focus for the present thread.

Did you realise, for example, that the house of Khadijah - first wife of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), of course - has recently been torn down and replaced with... a block of public toilets. Now that's a great way for the Guardian of the Two Holy Mosques to send out a positive international message about both women and Islam's cultural heritage.
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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District XIV
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Postby District XIV » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:59 pm

the nutbags of ISS blowing up the Tomb of Jonah

Does ISS = ISIS? I'm assuming so :p

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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:16 am

That's terrible. :(

The thread title confused me at first because I think of "ME" as the postal code for Maine.
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Postby Respawn » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:37 am

They also burned down a 1800 year old church a week ago.

The sad part is that many of these people destroying ancient Iraqi culture aren't even from there. ISIS is filled with insane western born jihadists , especially from Australia and Britain.

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Postby Sjovenia » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:43 am

Respawn wrote:They also burned down a 1800 year old church a week ago.

The sad part is that many of these people destroying ancient Iraqi culture aren't even from there. ISIS is filled with insane western born jihadists , especially from Australia and Britain.


What a bunch of dirtbags. Even during WWII they didn't or atleast tried to not cause damage to things such as the colosseum and the Eifel tower. Granted the colosseum has a lot of pock marks and shrapnel marks atleast it wasn't destroyed completely...
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:49 am

Don't get me wrong, I'm an anti-theist of the highest degree, but destroying history like that is just wrong. We really should do something to help.
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Respawn
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Postby Respawn » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:50 am

Sjovenia wrote:
Respawn wrote:They also burned down a 1800 year old church a week ago.

The sad part is that many of these people destroying ancient Iraqi culture aren't even from there. ISIS is filled with insane western born jihadists , especially from Australia and Britain.


What a bunch of dirtbags. Even during WWII they didn't or atleast tried to not cause damage to things such as the colosseum and the Eifel tower. Granted the colosseum has a lot of pock marks and shrapnel marks atleast it wasn't destroyed completely...

I'm not trying to defend these scum but to be fair, the Nazis burned down historic synagogues, the Soviets did the same with many churches and St Paul's Cathedral was extremely lucky to have survived the Blitz.
Last edited by Respawn on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:54 am

Given that the OP quotes liberally from a post of mine, I took the liberty of editing the title slightly for clarity.

It's also important to note that the phenomenon described in the OP is not universal across the region, and that motives differ between situations.

For example, much of the destruction/damage of religious sites in those parts of Syria not controlled by ISIS is collateral damage from the broader conflict rather than direct intent to destroy sites of heritage value because of their religious connotations. The destruction of much of the Great Mosque of Aleppo (particularly the 11th-century minaret), to take a specific example, is down to heavy fighting between rebels and government troops in April 2013.

This contrast sharply with the destruction of the Tomb of Jonah in Iraq, or the House of Khadijah in Mecca, where the motive is purely ideological, and in line with a Wahhabist interpretation of Islam that seeks to eliminate sites that could encourage what they consider idolatry. This type of destruction - which involves sites associated with any religion, including Islam - is purely ideologically motivated rather than being a (usually) unintended consequence of conflict.

Finally, it's also worth stressing that many Middle Eastern countries -even Gulf countries- are entirely comfortable with non-Islamic archaeological sites, and use them as tourist attractions. Visitors to Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates), for example, can arrange tours to the pre-Islamic Christian monastery on Bani Yas Island.


So it's important to recognise differences in motive and cause and effect between (and even within) Middle Eastern countries as to historical and religious sites are being impacted across the broader region.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Margno » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:38 am

Isis be crazy yo.
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Postby Quintium » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:09 am

Atoadeso. I fucking atoadeso.
Last edited by Quintium on Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:15 am

This is terrible.
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Postby Napkiraly » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:35 am

Considering that they say this is to prevent idolatry, one wonders that if they were to ever to take Medina, would they destroy the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi.

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Postby Quintium » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:37 am

Napkiraly wrote:Considering that they say this is to prevent idolatry, one wonders that if they were to ever to take Medina, would they destroy the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi.


The Al-Masjid al-Nabawi that you see today is the umpteenth Al-Masjid al-Nabawi. They've also demolished centuries-old houses once visited by Muhammed himself in Mecca to build hotels and shopping centres, because the people who talk about idolatry also happen to run Saudi Arabia.
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Postby Napkiraly » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:43 am

Quintium wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Considering that they say this is to prevent idolatry, one wonders that if they were to ever to take Medina, would they destroy the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi.


The Al-Masjid al-Nabawi that you see today is the umpteenth Al-Masjid al-Nabawi. They've also demolished centuries-old houses once visited by Muhammed himself in Mecca to build hotels and shopping centres, because the people who talk about idolatry also happen to run Saudi Arabia.

Well at least the Wahhabis are consistent.

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Postby Quintium » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:45 am

Napkiraly wrote:Well at least the Wahhabis are consistent.


Consistency, in itself, is not always a good thing.
In this case, for the sake of human history, I wish they weren't so consistent.
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Postby Cyrisnia » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:04 am

This is disgusting.
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Postby OMGeverynameistaken » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:18 am

Respawn wrote:
Sjovenia wrote:
What a bunch of dirtbags. Even during WWII they didn't or atleast tried to not cause damage to things such as the colosseum and the Eifel tower. Granted the colosseum has a lot of pock marks and shrapnel marks atleast it wasn't destroyed completely...

I'm not trying to defend these scum but to be fair, the Nazis burned down historic synagogues, the Soviets did the same with many churches and St Paul's Cathedral was extremely lucky to have survived the Blitz.

The Germans intentionally destroyed a number of historic buildings in Russia, particularly palaces such as Peterhof.

And, of course, the US was fine with destroying historical Japanese structures.
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Postby Herskerstad » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:21 am

Yup, a big, royal fuckup to not deal with these the two years they were in the making, and I would not be surprised if a lot of aid given to Syrian rebels has been siphoned into this group.

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Postby Pope Joan » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:24 am

If it causes a Sunni rift, it's a good thing.

We are overdue for some self-correcting from the Sunnis.

After the 30 Years War, Christians of all opinions were sick at heart over their barbarities, and things got better on the religious violence front. I hope that happens soon in Islam.
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Postby Cyyro » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:25 am

OMGeverynameistaken wrote:
Respawn wrote:I'm not trying to defend these scum but to be fair, the Nazis burned down historic synagogues, the Soviets did the same with many churches and St Paul's Cathedral was extremely lucky to have survived the Blitz.

The Germans intentionally destroyed a number of historic buildings in Russia, particularly palaces such as Peterhof.

And, of course, the US was fine with destroying historical Japanese structures.


They didn't specifically target them because they were historical Japanese Structures though.
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Sjovenia
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Postby Sjovenia » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:19 pm

Respawn wrote:
Sjovenia wrote:
What a bunch of dirtbags. Even during WWII they didn't or atleast tried to not cause damage to things such as the colosseum and the Eifel tower. Granted the colosseum has a lot of pock marks and shrapnel marks atleast it wasn't destroyed completely...

I'm not trying to defend these scum but to be fair, the Nazis burned down historic synagogues, the Soviets did the same with many churches and St Paul's Cathedral was extremely lucky to have survived the Blitz.

Oh I was talking mainly just Heritage sites in general. Not just Religious sites. Like Vatican, Great Wall, Big Ben although I'm pretty sure that got blown to pieces? Not too familiar with the Battle of Great Britain. Also there was a Church in Germany that I went to that got destroyed several times. Religious protests (Tried burning it down), the town was attacked by invaders (Cannon fire probably around 1700s?), then WWI, WWII, a couple of earthquakes, some flooding, and then another earthquake which happened recently (10 years ago or more) and they were still trying to reconstruct pieces of it from that last earthquake. Just goes to show that God can perform miracles even when it comes off as "Normal" Oh its just an earthquake….bro this church has been hit, flooded, ripped apart, and hit with cannon fire….it still stands. Thats Shists not natural :0 and yes I am religious, if it mattered?
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Postby Nervium » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:44 pm

I always like the story of Jonah. :(


Why doesn't like anyone deal with ISIS though?
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Postby Scholmeria » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:48 pm

Respawn wrote:They also burned down a 1800 year old church a week ago.

The sad part is that many of these people destroying ancient Iraqi culture aren't even from there. ISIS is filled with insane western born jihadists , especially from Australia and Britain.

So? It represents Christian culture which was always racist and bigoted and it is nothing compared to the glorious islamic golden age civilisation. ISIL just prooved how progressive they are.
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Postby Herskerstad » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:54 pm

Nervium wrote:I always like the story of Jonah. :(


Why doesn't like anyone deal with ISIS though?


Cause it would be a huge embarrassment if Obama had to put ground troops back into Iraq, so that strikes the US of the list. Cameron and Hollande probably have already funded groups that fund ISIS, so that would be more pie on the face. Germany generally tends to be relatively low profile.

So that pretty much leaves about Italy, which cannot wait to jumpstart a new colonial rush.
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Postby Calimera II » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:55 pm

Thank you, extremist islamists!

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