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Are DHS Border Checks Unconstitutional And Wrong?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Are DHS Border Checks And Questions Unconstitutional And Wrong?

Poll ended at Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:00 pm

Yes (Have you HEARD of the IV Amendment?)
5
22%
No (We have to protect ourselves, and borders are a one stop shop for that.)
2
9%
Maybe (It depends on the case.)
3
13%
Absolutely Yes (I should be able to travel freely across my own country!)
3
13%
Absolutely Not (People that fight this are just making government worker's lives harder.)
10
43%
 
Total votes : 23

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Elemental North
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Are DHS Border Checks Unconstitutional And Wrong?

Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:38 pm

So, we all know that after the fateful events that transpired on September 11, 2001, the then President at the time, George W. Bush, in response to rapidly growing fear of terrorism within our own borders, created, and passed-almost unanimously, a set of laws and positions/agencies that some call "The Right Killers of America". These things include the Patriot Act, through congress, and the Iraq War through Executive Order. However, the focus of this discussion will specifically be on the-up until the point of 9/11-non existent, Department of Homeland Security and their authority over the U.S Border Patrol.

Now, these borders, are both interstate, and between countries (obviously).

They often consist of questions that are no more than; "are you a U.S citizen?" Or; "do you have anything to declare?" As well as; "are your illegally transporting illegal immigrants?" and can sometimes result in detainment, other questioning, or search of your vehicle.

Now, some argue that these questions, and these borders (at least in between states), are unconstitutional as defined by the Fourth Amendment to the Bill of Rights that reads:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

-U.S Constitution AMENDMENT IV

This has been summed up to mean the following;

"The Fourth Amendment originally enforced the notion that 'each man’s home is his castle', secure from unreasonable searches and seizures of property by the government. It protects against arbitrary arrests, and is the basis of the law regarding search warrants, stop-and-frisk, safety inspections, wiretaps, and other forms of surveillance, as well as being central to many other criminal law topics and to privacy law."

-http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

Now, some people have been taking this into actual practice, vehemently denying questioning and search by the Border Agents and challenging them at the border check points.

As seen here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_3dDNPwJTU

So the question becomes; does the U.S Department of Homeland Security and the Border Patrol, have the right to ask these questions and conduct these searches? Or is it unconstitutional and wrong?

You have the floor, NS, let's hear what you have to say...
Last edited by Elemental North on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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The 54th Squadron
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Postby The 54th Squadron » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:47 pm

"Are you illegally transporting illegal immigrants?"

Questions like that baffle me, especially on the topic of the Border Patrol. if you're looking for people that shouldn't be getting through, why the fuck would you ask that? Maybe get a twitch response from the asked, but seriously, in my opinion it's stupid.
Last edited by The 54th Squadron on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Elemental North
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Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:50 pm

The 54th Squadron wrote:"Are you illegally transporting illegal immigrants?"

Questions like that baffle me, especially on the topic of the Border Patrol. if you're looking for people that shouldn't be getting through, why the fuck would you ask that? Maybe get a twitch response from the asked, but seriously, in my opinion it's stupid.


Yeah, they're trained to read body language. Alot of people, however, get super nervous when confronted with authority, so they get twitchy, so it look like they did something, but are actual just nervous due to the natural disposition of authority to citizens.
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Wind in the Willows
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:53 pm

No, everyone coming into the country must be searched for prohibited items and anyone trying to smuggle in illegal aliens. If they constantly moan about it, then they obviously have something to hide.

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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:53 pm

Elemental North wrote:
The 54th Squadron wrote:"Are you illegally transporting illegal immigrants?"

Questions like that baffle me, especially on the topic of the Border Patrol. if you're looking for people that shouldn't be getting through, why the fuck would you ask that? Maybe get a twitch response from the asked, but seriously, in my opinion it's stupid.


Yeah, they're trained to read body language. Alot of people, however, get super nervous when confronted with authority, so they get twitchy, so it look like they did something, but are actual just nervous due to the natural disposition of authority to citizens.

If that's the case, then should we make border agents dress up as mascots?
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Elemental North
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Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:54 pm

Wind in the Willows wrote:No, everyone coming into the country must be searched for prohibited items and anyone trying to smuggle in illegal aliens. If they constantly moan about it, then they obviously have something to hide.


Well I wouldn't go as far as that.
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Alcase
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Postby Alcase » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:55 pm

No.

But not adding a poll to this thread is.
Last edited by Alcase on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wind in the Willows
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:57 pm

Elemental North wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:No, everyone coming into the country must be searched for prohibited items and anyone trying to smuggle in illegal aliens. If they constantly moan about it, then they obviously have something to hide.


Well I wouldn't go as far as that.


Okay, let me make this simple for you. If you don't consent to being searched, then you shouldn't be let through the border. If you do consent to being searched and they find nothing, then you can be on your merry way.

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Alcase
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Postby Alcase » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:59 pm

Wind in the Willows wrote:
Elemental North wrote:
Well I wouldn't go as far as that.


Okay, let me make this simple for you. If you don't consent to being searched, then you shouldn't be let through the border. If you do consent to being searched and they find nothing, then you can be on your merry way.

I like that idea.
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Elemental North
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Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:01 pm

Alcase wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
Okay, let me make this simple for you. If you don't consent to being searched, then you shouldn't be let through the border. If you do consent to being searched and they find nothing, then you can be on your merry way.

I like that idea.


Some argue the constitutionality of such a thing, thus the legality, and what that says to our Civil Rights if let this continue.
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Versail
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Postby Versail » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:02 pm

Wind in the Willows wrote:
Elemental North wrote:
Well I wouldn't go as far as that.


Okay, let me make this simple for you. If you don't consent to being searched, then you shouldn't be let through the border. If you do consent to being searched and they find nothing, then you can be on your merry way.

But I don't have anything illegal on me and you have to take my word for it.
What do you mean I can't go through thats breaching my rights.
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Wind in the Willows
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:03 pm

Versail wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
Okay, let me make this simple for you. If you don't consent to being searched, then you shouldn't be let through the border. If you do consent to being searched and they find nothing, then you can be on your merry way.

But I don't have anything illegal on me and you have to take my word for it.
What do you mean I can't go through thats breaching my rights.


Why would I have to take your word for it? You could be a terrorist.

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Alcase
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Postby Alcase » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:04 pm

Versail wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
Okay, let me make this simple for you. If you don't consent to being searched, then you shouldn't be let through the border. If you do consent to being searched and they find nothing, then you can be on your merry way.

But I don't have anything illegal on me and you have to take my word for it.
What do you mean I can't go through thats breaching my rights.

There's nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says you have a right, as a U.S. citizen, to enter the United States from another country.
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Versail
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Postby Versail » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:05 pm

Wind in the Willows wrote:
Versail wrote:But I don't have anything illegal on me and you have to take my word for it.
What do you mean I can't go through thats breaching my rights.


Why would I have to take your word for it? You could be a terrorist.

PARANOID AMERICAN!!!!!
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Wind in the Willows
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:05 pm

Versail wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
Why would I have to take your word for it? You could be a terrorist.

PARANOID AMERICAN!!!!!


I'm British, but we Brits also have border control as well you know.
Last edited by Wind in the Willows on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elemental North
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Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:06 pm

Alcase wrote:
Versail wrote:But I don't have anything illegal on me and you have to take my word for it.
What do you mean I can't go through thats breaching my rights.

There's nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says you have a right, as a U.S. citizen, to enter the United States from another country.


If one views the video provided in the OP, one will see instances of people being detained at STATE check points as well, one even goes so far as to threaten to deny them ENTRY into the state they wish to travel.
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Versail
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Postby Versail » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:07 pm

Wind in the Willows wrote:
Versail wrote:PARANOID AMERICAN!!!!!


I'm British.

Sorry about that did not mean any disrespect to anyone just telling you what I heard one day.
What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, Whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or in the holy name of liberty or democracy?~ Gandhi.
http://freerice.com/#/english-vocabulary/2499

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Alcase
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Postby Alcase » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:08 pm

Elemental North wrote:
Alcase wrote:There's nothing in the U.S. Constitution that says you have a right, as a U.S. citizen, to enter the United States from another country.


If one views the video provided in the OP, one will see instances of people being detained at STATE check points as well, one even goes so far as to threaten to deny them ENTRY into the state they wish to travel.

Oh, I didn't see that.

Denying interstate travel is definitely unconstitutional.
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Elemental North
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Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:10 pm

Alcase wrote:
Elemental North wrote:
If one views the video provided in the OP, one will see instances of people being detained at STATE check points as well, one even goes so far as to threaten to deny them ENTRY into the state they wish to travel.

Oh, I didn't see that.

Denying interstate travel is definitely unconstitutional.


And why?
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Wind in the Willows
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:10 pm

Versail wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
I'm British.

Sorry about that did not mean any disrespect to anyone just telling you what I heard one day.


It's alright, I don't feel disrespected. :)

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Versail
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Postby Versail » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:12 pm

Wind in the Willows wrote:
Versail wrote:Sorry about that did not mean any disrespect to anyone just telling you what I heard one day.


It's alright, I don't feel disrespected. :)

It just baffle's me that some people ignore international borders.
What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, Whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or in the holy name of liberty or democracy?~ Gandhi.
http://freerice.com/#/english-vocabulary/2499

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Elemental North
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Postby Elemental North » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:12 pm

Versail wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
It's alright, I don't feel disrespected. :)

It just baffle's me that some people ignore international borders.


Yes that is quite baffling.
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Wind in the Willows
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Postby Wind in the Willows » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:13 pm

Versail wrote:
Wind in the Willows wrote:
It's alright, I don't feel disrespected. :)

It just baffle's me that some people ignore international borders.


Oh I get it now, you were making fun of those who constantly moan about things being unconstitutional. Sorry I didn't pick up on that straight away, but it totally baffles me as well.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:14 pm

Depends if you determine these checks unreasonable.

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Alcase
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Postby Alcase » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:15 pm

Elemental North wrote:
Alcase wrote:Oh, I didn't see that.

Denying interstate travel is definitely unconstitutional.


And why?


Wikipedia wrote:"The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." As far back as the circuit court ruling in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), the Supreme Court recognized freedom of movement as a fundamental Constitutional right. In Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869), the Court defined freedom of movement as "right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them."

PAUL v. STATE OF VIRGINIA, 75 U.S. 168 (1868)

What the man in the video did, however, was wrong. By not stating whether or not he is a U.S. Citizen, he's just giving the DHS officers problems. If he just said he's a citizen, he would've probably been allowed without having to argue so damned much.
Last edited by Alcase on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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