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[PASSED] Vehicle Emissions Convention

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Mallorea and Riva
Senator
 
Posts: 4383
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:13 pm

Auralia wrote:
Libertas Liber wrote:Unfortunately, whether we want to or not, passed resolutions must be enforced in all World Assembly member states. This is not an option.


We disagree, and would appreciate it if the notion of "mandatory compliance" is not presented as irrefutable fact.

Take your noncompliance RP nonsense elsewhere. Passed legislation as both a game mechanic and as a part of the accepted respected RP mechanisms of the GA are mandatory.

This looks like it will pass. Unfortunate.
Last edited by Mallorea and Riva on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zakath of Mallorea
Ideological Bulwark #253
Another Mediocre Kennyite Puppet™
GAR 154, GAR 188, Co-Author for GAR 193
Major and Head of Military of The Black Hawks
Colonel of DEN Central Command
Officially-unofficial Radiostation of The Black Riders
Former Delegate of The South Pacific
Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Rawr, Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
[23:44] <Mahaj> i am the herpes of nationstates
Frattastan II wrote:
Mahaj wrote:I've had 1003 nations deleted.
Do I get a condemnation?

"Noting with horror that Mahaj, hereafter referred to as "Destroyer of Worlds", is responsible for the complete annihilation of 1003 nations,"

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Auralia
Senator
 
Posts: 4010
Founded: Dec 15, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Auralia » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:21 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Auralia wrote:
We disagree, and would appreciate it if the notion of "mandatory compliance" is not presented as irrefutable fact.

Take your noncompliance RP nonsense elsewhere. Passed legislation as both a game mechanic and as a part of the accepted respected RP mechanisms of the GA are mandatory.


Interesting. Personally, I find that the notion that nations are magically forced to comply with an organization that has no enforcement mechanism is nonsense, particularly in the context of real-life international organizations.

I don't care whether mandatory compliance is the RP norm or not. RP is what you can get away with, and I believe that I have enough clout in the GA to be taken seriously when I refuse to comply with certain resolutions.
Martin Russell
Federation of Auralia

Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly
Iustitia omni auro carior.


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Mallorea and Riva
Senator
 
Posts: 4383
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:25 pm

Auralia wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Take your noncompliance RP nonsense elsewhere. Passed legislation as both a game mechanic and as a part of the accepted respected RP mechanisms of the GA are mandatory.


Interesting. Personally, I find that the notion that nations are magically forced to comply with an organization that has no enforcement mechanism is nonsense, particularly in the context of real-life international organizations.

I don't care whether mandatory compliance is the RP norm or not. RP is what you can get away with, and I believe that I have enough clout in the GA to be taken seriously when I refuse to comply with certain resolutions.

Again:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Take your noncompliance RP nonsense elsewhere.

No one here cares how much clout you believe yourself to have. This is a thread for the current (bad) resolution at vote.
Zakath of Mallorea
Ideological Bulwark #253
Another Mediocre Kennyite Puppet™
GAR 154, GAR 188, Co-Author for GAR 193
Major and Head of Military of The Black Hawks
Colonel of DEN Central Command
Officially-unofficial Radiostation of The Black Riders
Former Delegate of The South Pacific
Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Rawr, Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
[23:44] <Mahaj> i am the herpes of nationstates
Frattastan II wrote:
Mahaj wrote:I've had 1003 nations deleted.
Do I get a condemnation?

"Noting with horror that Mahaj, hereafter referred to as "Destroyer of Worlds", is responsible for the complete annihilation of 1003 nations,"

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Pragia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6232
Founded: May 08, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Pragia » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:31 pm

Now I remember why my nation left the WA...
In OOC call me Tom.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Pragia wrote:And, let it be known that pretentias 2000th post was begging for mercy... From me.

What?! You asshole!

Compass=6.2,-2.3

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Krickan Union
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 174
Founded: Jan 30, 2013
Anarchy

Postby Krickan Union » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:14 am

Ambassador Rivza Shilhab sits in his chair, looking over the proposal. He says "Our cars already run on electricity and hydrogen, I do not see how we can improve our automobile emissions without making them run on air. It will be very easy for some nations to reach the 75% goal, since their cars are terrible polluters, they can just add a simple filter. But, on the other hand, nations like us will find a hard time to reach that 75% goal. I'm sorry but I do not think this proposal is good enough for us to recommend. But, since this proposal has SOME (but very few) merits, we will not go against it either. We abstain from this vote for now, however, we will discuss more about this proposal, so our decision is susceptible to change."
Last edited by Krickan Union on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
DEFCON 1X
DEFCON 2
DEFCON 3
DEFCON 4
DEFCON 5
Economic Left/Right: 1.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.67
PROTOCOL #39 IS IN EFFECT, EMERGENCY GOVERNMENT POWERS HAVE BEEN ENACTED

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Hirota
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1126
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hirota » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:38 am

Auralia wrote: I believe that I have enough clout in the GA to be taken seriously when I refuse to comply with certain resolutions.
You sound like one those crazy people who are so convinced about their point of view that it's impossible for anyone other than another crazy person to relate to.

yeah, you can roleplay wank yourself into oblivion all you want, but for all you supposed "clout" it's ultimately just roleplay wank. And quite honestly, nobody here cares what you do in your own time and scribble on your own little corner or the internet.
Last edited by Hirota on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ambassador Hirosami Kildarno, Representative of the Supremely Democratic States of Hirota, UNOG member, former delegate of England. Author and co-author here and there when I set my mind to it.
Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03

You're just another in a long line of ideological thugs who hide behind sovereignty when it's convenient, and piss on it when it isn't.
What a terrifying thought - Was Hirota made a mod at some point and I just wasn't paying attention?

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Araraukar
Senator
 
Posts: 4172
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:23 am

Hirota wrote:
Auralia wrote: I believe that I have enough clout in the GA to be taken seriously when I refuse to comply with certain resolutions.
You sound like one those crazy people who are so convinced about their point of view that it's impossible for anyone other than another crazy person to relate to.

OOC: It's Auralia. What did you expect? :P
When arguing in WA, unless otherwise mentioned, debater is ambassador miss Janis Leveret. Araraukar is not a WA nation - the ambassador partakes proposal debates as an observer, she can't vote on them.
The more subtle implication seems to be that perfectly straight Catholics might become queer merely by eating burritos funded partially by lesbians, sitting in chairs gay men helped rent or wiping their mouths with napkins that God-knows-which-perverts pitched in for.
- Susan Greene, denverpost.com

The Alma Mater wrote:No, the idea behind it (free will) is that one has the option to be Good(tm) and the option to be Bad(tm). God is rather pro-choice.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.

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Flugenstein
Secretary
 
Posts: 40
Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flugenstein » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:56 am

As for the secondary issue nations who are currently at low levels of emissions, are still not at nil. And no nation so far that I can recall off hand has claimed to be at nil, so reducing those levels is still a positive, even if it is only by .1%, it's still .1% less per vehicle, released to the atmosphere, this all adds up on a global scale.


We agree that emissions do add up, but it is unethical to allow a nation to decrease their emissions by .1% and declare that a victory while another nation decreases their emissions by 50% and give them the same congratulatory pat on the back from the World Assembly. In reality, the nation who decreased their emissions on a minimal level will have a better chance of outselling and outmaneuvering auto manufacturers who are already in compliance. Clean emission technology is expensive. This resolution calls for a reduction of emissions, encouragement for consumers to buy cleaner automobiles, and government subsidies for those who do reduce emissions.

The nation of Flugenstein disagrees wholeheartedly with these aforementioned ideas. If emissions are to be reduced, nations who have already made strides in this reduction should not be negatively effected and those who make the most basic strides be positively rewarded. Also, there is no reason why the World Assembly should force us to subsidize clean energy. There is no set amount of money to be given to clean energy that is stated in the resolution, and theoretically, we could give minimally or use 100% of our budget to clean energy and still be in compliance. Unless there are mandated rules with clear percentages/numbers for all countries so that no country can bend the rules and wiggle around the regulations, we are severely against this measure.

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Hirota
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1126
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hirota » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:25 am

Araraukar wrote:
Hirota wrote:You sound like one those crazy people who are so convinced about their point of view that it's impossible for anyone other than another crazy person to relate to.

OOC: It's Auralia. What did you expect? :P
OOC: In fairness to Auralia, they are hardly the only player to use RP to try and pretend that their nation is capable of ignoring international law. Very few of them are obstinate about trying to force other players to acknowledge that their RP is actually valid. It might be valid in their head - but the reality is quite different.
Last edited by Hirota on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ambassador Hirosami Kildarno, Representative of the Supremely Democratic States of Hirota, UNOG member, former delegate of England. Author and co-author here and there when I set my mind to it.
Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03

You're just another in a long line of ideological thugs who hide behind sovereignty when it's convenient, and piss on it when it isn't.
What a terrifying thought - Was Hirota made a mod at some point and I just wasn't paying attention?

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Krickan Union
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 174
Founded: Jan 30, 2013
Anarchy

Postby Krickan Union » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:39 am

Ambassador Rivza Shilhab listens to his earpiece, and then turns it off. He says "Upon further debate in the Grand Council, we have decided to go AGAINST this bill. The 75% goal is way too easy to achieve with nations whose cars are bad polluters. A nation like that could just do minimal changes and reach 75%. Nations like us on the other hand will have to work ridiculously hard on trying to reach even 50% without heavily effecting our auto industry. So, we go against this bill, and urge other nations to join us against it."
Last edited by Krickan Union on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DEFCON 1X
DEFCON 2
DEFCON 3
DEFCON 4
DEFCON 5
Economic Left/Right: 1.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.67
PROTOCOL #39 IS IN EFFECT, EMERGENCY GOVERNMENT POWERS HAVE BEEN ENACTED

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Potted Plants United
Diplomat
 
Posts: 589
Founded: Jan 14, 2013
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Potted Plants United » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:29 pm

Hirota wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: It's Auralia. What did you expect? :P
OOC: In fairness to Auralia, they are hardly the only player to use RP to try and pretend that their nation is capable of ignoring international law. Very few of them are obstinate about trying to force other players to acknowledge that their RP is actually valid. It might be valid in their head - but the reality is quite different.

OOC: That's why Security Council can hand out condemnations. :P
This nation comprises of creature(s) of plant-based hivemind, which was born in one plant pot on a windowsill in the WA building. It gained sentience after absorbing one WA delegate's aide by "accident". The composted remains of past WA resolutions used as mulch may have also been involved.
This is a puppet nation. Main nation is Araraukar.

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Flugenstein
Secretary
 
Posts: 40
Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Flugenstein » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:51 am

The nation of Flugenstein is disappointed that this measure will probably pass. We are excited about the possibility about emissions reductions and reforming the auto industry, but this measure will damage our auto industry and benefit others, while emissions reductions could have been introduced in a more fair way. Hopefully this measure will be reformed or repealed and reintroduced with clearer and more equitable language.

Flugenstein will support any nation who agrees with our reservations.

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Kamptyn
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: Feb 07, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kamptyn » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:11 pm

Flugenstein wrote:The nation of Flugenstein is disappointed that this measure will probably pass. We are excited about the possibility about emissions reductions and reforming the auto industry, but this measure will damage our auto industry and benefit others, while emissions reductions could have been introduced in a more fair way. Hopefully this measure will be reformed or repealed and reintroduced with clearer and more equitable language.

Flugenstein will support any nation who agrees with our reservations.


"Finally a nation who understand us!"
Chief Ambassador Ian Blair
The Republic of Kamptyn
A member of The New Inquisition

"Strength Through Unity. Unity Through Kamptyn"

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Reino do Brazil
Minister
 
Posts: 2312
Founded: Jan 31, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Reino do Brazil » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:02 pm

The Kingdom of Brazil have been developing Bio-diesel, Ethanol and alcohol as fuel but considers that the use of fossil fuels are indispensable and will be
for a long time. We believe in a long sustained adaptation that would be by itself, smooth in both sides of the industry. There is still a lot of research to be done to better the fuel as well.
Agnostic, Bissexual, sorry for my spelling mistakes but English is not my 1st language

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Bears Armed
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11456
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Bears Armed » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:20 am

Auralia wrote:Interesting. Personally, I find that the notion that nations are magically forced to comply with an organization that has no enforcement mechanism is nonsense, particularly in the context of real-life international organizations.

OOC: Are you overlooking the 'Compliance Ministry' TGs that you receive whenever a GA resolution gets passed? Those say, absolutely clearly, that the passage of the resolution has (unless it was a Repeal) been followed by the passage of laws on the subject in your own nation.
Therefore, as those TGs are an intrinsic part of the game, the passage of those national laws is effectively a condition of WA membership.
Therefore in claiming that your nation's government ignores any passed resolutions outright -- instead of finding 'reasonable' loopholes to exploit -- you are claiming that your government ignores not only international law but its own laws as well... and what does that say about your nation?

Personally I feel that, although the Mods won't do anything about the matter OOC, it would be reasonable for those of us who do accept the "Compliance is mandatory" argument to RP that nations who blatantly ignore passed resolutions IC either get expelled from the WA altogether or [at the least] have their proposal-submission rights suspended as the apppropriate punishment... which actually means, of course, that we could retcon any resolutions that such a nation had submitted after its non-compliance became obvious out of IC existence on the grounds that the nation therefore couldn't really have submitted them anyway.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed.
Demonym = ‘Urrsish’.
We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Our population is approximately 19 million. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.

Author of some GA Resolutions... and subject of an SC one. Visitors' Guide
Crisis of Infinite Mirth (OOC/Sign-up)

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Auralia
Senator
 
Posts: 4010
Founded: Dec 15, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Auralia » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:52 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Auralia wrote:Interesting. Personally, I find that the notion that nations are magically forced to comply with an organization that has no enforcement mechanism is nonsense, particularly in the context of real-life international organizations.

OOC: Are you overlooking the 'Compliance Ministry' TGs that you receive whenever a GA resolution gets passed? Those say, absolutely clearly, that the passage of the resolution has (unless it was a Repeal) been followed by the passage of laws on the subject in your own nation.
Therefore, as those TGs are an intrinsic part of the game, the passage of those national laws is effectively a condition of WA membership.
Therefore in claiming that your nation's government ignores any passed resolutions outright -- instead of finding 'reasonable' loopholes to exploit -- you are claiming that your government ignores not only international law but its own laws as well... and what does that say about your nation?


Once again, game mechanics do necessarily match RP. I do not accept the notion that a "World Assembly Compliance Ministry" can usurp the Auralian national legislature.

Bears Armed wrote:Personally I feel that, although the Mods won't do anything about the matter OOC, it would be reasonable for those of us who do accept the "Compliance is mandatory" argument to RP that nations who blatantly ignore passed resolutions IC either get expelled from the WA altogether or [at the least] have their proposal-submission rights suspended as the apppropriate punishment... which actually means, of course, that we could retcon any resolutions that such a nation had submitted after its non-compliance became obvious out of IC existence on the grounds that the nation therefore couldn't really have submitted them anyway.


Feel free to RP whatever you like.
Last edited by Auralia on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Martin Russell
Federation of Auralia

Chief Ambassador, Auralian Mission to the World Assembly
Iustitia omni auro carior.


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The Dourian Embassy
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1076
Founded: Nov 15, 2007
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby The Dourian Embassy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:56 pm

Yeah here's the thing. No one makes your legislature do anything, it's pretty much assumed that when you joined the WA, your government agreed to follow the WA's laws. So when the WA passes something, somebody in your legislature takes up the task(there's probably a department set up for it in most nations), drafts appropriate local legislation, and then your legislature passes it.

These assumptions are what make the WA work.

Also this is pretty clearly a threadjack, so it might be best to get back on topic or leave it alone.
Last edited by The Dourian Embassy on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Treize Dreizehn, President of Douria.

tip my hat to the sun in the west, feel the beat right in my chest, at the crossroads a second time, make the devil change his mind

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