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[Submitted]Condemn The United Defenders League

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
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Festering Woods
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Ex-Nation

[Submitted]Condemn The United Defenders League

Postby Festering Woods » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:09 am

Description: The Security Council,

Noting The United Defenders League (UDL) as a self-proclaimed 'ideological defender organization'.

Disappointed by the actions of the organization and it's leader The Best Trilogy is Best of Unibot III towards other nations, regions and organizations alike.

Dismayed by several contradictory policies enacted by the UDL including it's defending of regions which conflicted with some of their supposed ideologies and despite international criticism of these actions, the UDL has continued to participate in unpopular actions.

Appalled by the The United Defenders's League intervention in the peaceful operation undertaken by The South Pacific Army in Warzone Airspace, despite the occupation being non-hostile and willing to work with the native residents.

Disturbed by The United Defenders's League's stubbornness in recognizing the legally recognized flag of Balder as legitimate.

Shocked by the UDL's manipulation of several region's governments, including attempts to heavily influence the military policy of The North Pacific, The South Pacific and Osiris.

Hereby Condemns The United Defenders League


Status: Lacking Support (requires 23 more approvals)

Voting Ends: in 10 hours

I wasn't originally going to post this, but seeing as it's picked up a lot more support than I thought it would seems worth seeing if we can get those last 23.

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Itermaly
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Ex-Nation

Postby Itermaly » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:13 am

As king Harkinain says
"FOR OAH HA HA HA"

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:28 am

I think there's more condem-worthy stuff the UDL has done, but yes, I could kill for this to be put to a vote before the entire WA.
Kantrias - The Gavel and the Sword.
Assume, unless the post is official or I specifically say so, that I am speaking as myself, and not for any regions I hold positions of Authority Within.
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Firstaria
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Postby Firstaria » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:40 am

You know, I've been subjected to so much bad work in the last times that I'm just happy to see research done and grammar. I hope this goes to vote, then I'll discuss if it's to vote for or against.
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Festering Woods
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Ex-Nation

Postby Festering Woods » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:52 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:I think there's more condem-worthy stuff the UDL has done, but yes, I could kill for this to be put to a vote before the entire WA.


Well you never know, 21 more approvals to go. Plus since this has attracted more than I originally thought I'm half-tempted to resubmit it so any other condemn worthy stuff you think should be included feel free to mention.

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:19 pm

The fact that they're a paramilitary non-state actor that requires members to put loyalty to the UDL above regional loyalties? That dissent is less tolerated in the UDL than your standard police state?
Kantrias - The Gavel and the Sword.
Assume, unless the post is official or I specifically say so, that I am speaking as myself, and not for any regions I hold positions of Authority Within.
War is not its own end, except in some catastrophic slide into absolute damnation. It's peace that's wanted. Some better peace than the one you started with.
The Bruce wrote:I sometimes suspect that Cerian Quilor is here to harvest the tears of young, ambitious nations.
The North Polish Union wrote:Oh come on. If it weren't for all the ad hominem attacks here GP would be no fun. :p

Quoth The Raven

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Everbeek
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Postby Everbeek » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:10 pm

The fact that the region you're actually condemning by this is just a more or less empty placeholder does make it a bit hollow, no?
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:27 pm

The region is a place holder for an organization - its the organization that is being condemned.
Kantrias - The Gavel and the Sword.
Assume, unless the post is official or I specifically say so, that I am speaking as myself, and not for any regions I hold positions of Authority Within.
War is not its own end, except in some catastrophic slide into absolute damnation. It's peace that's wanted. Some better peace than the one you started with.
The Bruce wrote:I sometimes suspect that Cerian Quilor is here to harvest the tears of young, ambitious nations.
The North Polish Union wrote:Oh come on. If it weren't for all the ad hominem attacks here GP would be no fun. :p

Quoth The Raven

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Cromarty
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cromarty » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:42 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:The fact that they're a paramilitary non-state actor that requires members to put loyalty to the UDL above regional loyalties?
Wrong.
That dissent is less tolerated in the UDL than your standard police state?
Also wrong.

But nice try.
Cerian Quilor wrote:There's a difference between breaking the rules, and being well....Cromarty...
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Cromarty
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Postby Cromarty » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:25 pm

Festering Woods wrote:Shocked by the UDL's manipulation of several region's governments, including attempts to heavily influence the military policy of The North Pacific, The South Pacific and Osiris.

I would be very interested to know of the UDL's attempts to 'heavily influence the military policy of... Osiris', considering I'm almost solely responsible for it.
Cerian Quilor wrote:There's a difference between breaking the rules, and being well....Cromarty...
<Koth>all sexual orientations must unite under the relative sexiness of madjack
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Iridaceae
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Ex-Nation

Postby Iridaceae » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:21 pm

Description: The Security Council,

Noting The United Defenders League (UDL) as a self-proclaimed 'ideological defender organization'.

Disappointed by the actions of the organization and it's leader The Best Trilogy is Best of Unibot III towards other nations, regions and organizations alike.

Dismayed by several contradictory policies enacted by the UDL including it's defending of regions which conflicted with some of their supposed ideologies and despite international criticism of these actions, the UDL has continued to participate in unpopular actions.

Appalled by the The United Defenders's League intervention in the peaceful operation undertaken by The South Pacific Army in Warzone Airspace, despite the occupation being non-hostile and willing to work with the native residents.

Disturbed by The United Defenders's League's stubbornness in recognizing the legally recognized flag of Balder as legitimate.

Shocked by the UDL's manipulation of several region's governments, including attempts to heavily influence the military policy of The North Pacific, The South Pacific and Osiris.

Hereby Condemns The United Defenders League


This resolution is totally rubbish. It's worse than useless. I've been playing this game for some time now and nothing has made me actually post on the NS forum until I read this sorry excuse for security council resolution proposal.

Firstly, it's not TSPA, it's SPA, get the initials correct.

Secondly, the proposal makes no references to the UDL's self-proclamation of an "ideological defender organisation" the proposed resolution totally fails to demonstrate this claim.

It claims the UDL's actions are "contradictory" and "unpopular" but it doesn't say which actions were contradictory and unpopular.

The proposed resolution makes no reference to specific events in The North Pacific and Osiris, yet includes these high-profile names for to lend weight to its hopelessly poor quality indictment.

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Cerian Quilor
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:28 pm

Cromarty wrote:
Cerian Quilor wrote:The fact that they're a paramilitary non-state actor that requires members to put loyalty to the UDL above regional loyalties?
Wrong.
That dissent is less tolerated in the UDL than your standard police state?
Also wrong.

But nice try.

Both very true, actually, Georgie. You just live inside the Bubble.

Also, *points at Earth*
Kantrias - The Gavel and the Sword.
Assume, unless the post is official or I specifically say so, that I am speaking as myself, and not for any regions I hold positions of Authority Within.
War is not its own end, except in some catastrophic slide into absolute damnation. It's peace that's wanted. Some better peace than the one you started with.
The Bruce wrote:I sometimes suspect that Cerian Quilor is here to harvest the tears of young, ambitious nations.
The North Polish Union wrote:Oh come on. If it weren't for all the ad hominem attacks here GP would be no fun. :p

Quoth The Raven

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Cromarty
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cromarty » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:12 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:
Cromarty wrote:Wrong. Also wrong.

But nice try.

Both very true, actually, Georgie. You just live inside the Bubble.

Also, *points at Earth*

Except I frequently disagree with the prevailing opinion in the UDL. The fact I do this in the appropriate place for it doesn't mean it isn't tolerated.
Cerian Quilor wrote:There's a difference between breaking the rules, and being well....Cromarty...
<Koth>all sexual orientations must unite under the relative sexiness of madjack
Former Delegate of Osiris
Brommander of the Cartan Militia: They're Taking The Cartans To Isengard!
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Captain Apollo
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Founded: Nov 08, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Captain Apollo » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:16 pm

As funny as this would be, I don't see it passing.

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Topid
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Topid » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:37 pm

Cromarty wrote:
Cerian Quilor wrote:Both very true, actually, Georgie. You just live inside the Bubble.

Also, *points at Earth*

Except I frequently disagree with the prevailing opinion in the UDL. The fact I do this in the appropriate place for it doesn't mean it isn't tolerated.

Waaaait, are you saying all UDL members may not share all of the same views as the leader(s) even if they express it more often in private than public?!?!

This is ground breaking.
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Unibot III
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Founded: Mar 11, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:20 pm

Festering Woods wrote:Noting The United Defenders League (UDL) as a self-proclaimed 'ideological defender organization'.


Since when is "defender" a bad term? Yes, we're defender. We protect, free and restore regions all across NationStates. I'm not ashamed of that.

Disappointed by the actions of the organization and it's leader The Best Trilogy is Best of Unibot III towards other nations, regions and organizations alike.


On the contrary, we recently cooperated with another defender organization, by blocking your access to our military channel because the other defender organization removed you from their organization. This resolution is starting to sound vindictive to me.

Dismayed by several contradictory policies enacted by the UDL including it's defending of regions which conflicted with some of their supposed ideologies and despite international criticism of these actions, the UDL has continued to participate in unpopular actions.


We have a Nazi Policy yes, we do not intervene in regions where the region is so socially offensive that members of our organization could have entire parts of their real-life family unjustly murdered or tortured or whathaveyou by the regime that the region is portraying. I don't view it as in the requirements of an online game to make defenders feel like "less" of a defender because they don't partake in such missions; UDL is a group, we do missions as a group or we refrain from missions as a group -- I'm never going to intentionally leave someone out of a mission if we can help it.

Appalled by the The United Defenders's League intervention in the peaceful operation undertaken by The South Pacific Army in Warzone Airspace, despite the occupation being non-hostile and willing to work with the native residents.


The South Pacific Army never communicated publicly they were working with the native residents and did that colonization mission with several raider groups' help; intervention was the reasonable response from a defender group (one that is concerned about native rights).

Disturbed by The United Defenders's League's stubbornness in recognizing the legally recognized flag of Balder as legitimate.


There was confusion over what was the legitimate flag of Balder -- Balder was flying their old flag on their forums, but their new one in-game. We maintained the old flag on the UDL Embassy until a diplomat asked us to use the in-game one.

Shocked by the UDL's manipulation of several region's governments, including attempts to heavily influence the military policy of The North Pacific, The South Pacific and Osiris.


The UDL has made no such attempts to manipulate the military policy of any of those regions. It would be a violation of our organization's purview.
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Lyanna Stark
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Ex-Nation

Postby Lyanna Stark » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:15 pm

[quote="Cerian Quilor";p="11767497"Also, *points at Earth*[/quote]
I wasn't UDL for a very large percentage of my time in Osiris. The Osiris-UDL proposed treaty from a few months back was actually really killed by..a lot of Osiris citizens..who also were UDLers.

Osiris has often put up it's military perspective up to discussion within the region. It's not been influenced by UDLers. Actually, if you look at the last time it was brought up a lot of people were saying stick with how we are (neutral) or suggesting a sort of imperialism. And..there weren't even really UDLers posting, and those that did weren't pressing for defenderism.

WIth respect to Balder's flag, UDL wasn't informed of the change nor was the flag seen in the Balder Embassy on the UDL forum..until we were yelled at about not changing it. And when we were informed...we changed it.
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Sichuan Pepper
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Postby Sichuan Pepper » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:44 pm

This resolution failed to meet quorum. I do not see what debating it will do unless it is being resubmitted?
I do see a current one that was submitted by a different nation
http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vie ... 1353787909

It may need it's own debating thread?
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Human Metrinome
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Ex-Nation

Postby Human Metrinome » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:02 am

Uni the proposal in this thread is not mine. And I am Joshua (Jedi-Gangsters). Though I have submitted my own condemnation of the UDL. There is nothing vindictive about my submitting a condemnation of the UDL. I have no ill will towards the FRA and being banned fron the UDL IRC chan matters little to me. :)

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Cromarty
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Postby Cromarty » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:08 am

Human Metrinome wrote:Uni the proposal in this thread is not mine. And I am Joshua (Jedi-Gangsters). Though I have submitted my own condemnation of the UDL. There is nothing vindictive about my submitting a condemnation of the UDL. I have no ill will towards the FRA and being banned fron the UDL IRC chan matters little to me. :)

He says from his perch as founder of #anti-udl ;)
Cerian Quilor wrote:There's a difference between breaking the rules, and being well....Cromarty...
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Human Metrinome
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Postby Human Metrinome » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:25 am

That does not make this vindictive in any way. :)

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Topid
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Postby Topid » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:32 am

Lyanna Stark wrote:WIth respect to Balder's flag, UDL wasn't informed of the change nor was the flag seen in the Balder Embassy on the UDL forum..until we were yelled at about not changing it. And when we were informed...we changed it.

And with further respect to that point, the lone member of the Balder CoS at the time that advocated the breaking of embassies and claim(ed) that the 'apology' issued to the UDL was crap and that the UDL were flat out BSing in that statement back was me, who I believe was also the lone UDL member in the CoS. I would say the vast majority of us are capable of holding positions in the region and keeping them separate from our role in the UDL.
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Khanatah
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Khanatah » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:19 pm

I have been messaged on this cause by a Rolodex of different harassers on obtaining my approval of this legislation (or it's previous, already out-voted variants).

I know little of the UDL. I am not associated with them in any form at all.

I first learnt about them a month or so back, when a few key members of their organisation put forward and supported a proposal to "liberate" NAZI EUROPE so that it could be invaded.

I approved that proposal, and upon further research into the UDL, came to respect it for it's stark "Let the fascists rot" approach as a defender organisation. I do not associate with any defender or invader group, not even Antifa (though I'd like too, it requires history and more active participation, plus I currently lead the USSR so I can't use my WA membership to assist Antifa in any sort of useful way).

The UDL have my respect.

As such, the request denied, I will never approve this legislation or any of its variants.
Last edited by Khanatah on Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unibot III
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:54 pm

To clarify, Khanatah. The United Defenders League did not support any of the versions of "Liberate NAZI EUROPE" because we as an organization were worried it would set a bad precedent for other regions (i.e., Unpopular regions can just lose their right to impose a password for being unpopular).

There were individuals in The United Defenders League who submitted and supported such proposals; we did not punish these individuals in any way.

Nazism in NationStates is such a difficult personal issue with complex emotional responses for many, we tend not to want to push a certain moral agenda on Nazi Regions in NS, against our members. We're not going to tell them they're badddd defenders because they don't stick up for Nazis and we're not going to call the team to help out in a Nazi region because I only try to call missions where I don't think anyone on the team will be alienated from partaking because of justified personal offense. A more difficult case was "Zoo", where we ruled it would be better to liberate the region; although admittedly the founder advocated for zoophilia and other forms of animal abuse and we find that absolutely disgusting as well as pathetic and a violation of animals rights, the founder was gone from the region and what remained was a region with a vague "animal" theme and an ambiguous title that suggests to me that if the region is open, there's not much from stopping it from growing into more of a constructive region for the appreciation of animals and zoos. The so-called "Nazi Policy" is thus applied case-by-case as I see it as necessary, depending on the social offensiveness of the region.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Khanatah
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Founded: Aug 06, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Khanatah » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:53 pm

I apoligize, I did not mean to imply that the organization sanctioned it, I learnt that at the time. I only meant of the few UDL members who did, outside of group authorty. I remember you officially voting against. I did not, because I felt that no one really cares about precedents. Nothing stops a similiar form making quorum, whether or not that resolution past would not affect a future proposal at all. But that's the past.

Once again, I see little issue to vote against the favour of the UDL.

Best of luck comrades.
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