Is fascism, communism or autocracy that bad?

[Fascist Tyrol]

Are they that bad? Fascism worked in ancient Rome, if everything had been done the way Karl Marx had envisioned it would have worked and if the dictator was actually a good one then it would work too!

[Herskerstad]

The 1900's was not 'anicent' rome. And no, there were no directly fascist emperors or councils to say it like that.

Karl Marx was a presumptuous brat who's theory of restructuring and evolving the capitalistic economic system has more holes in it than any Swiss cheese.

Autocracy is the means to an end, but history shows this respectfully in a negative light. Giving full unbridled power to one person to control an entity as massive as a state generally has some pretty poor results.

[Crystal Spires]

OOC: (This doesn't belong here. Try moving this thread to NSG! This is an In Character forum, which means that all answers will be in character, therefore it will be driven by character choices )

"Communism, Autocracy, and Fascism are completely unrelated to one another, so to speak so the comparison is offensive and also makes me believe you have no idea what the three of these ideologies mean." A Spirean Lobbyist said with a roll of his eyes.

[Collingwood1]

Nazism is Fascism and we all now what happen with that. Communism is a good idea where everyone is equal and the same but it dosn't work because people get greedy. and autocracy doesn't work bescusea people get sick of it/

[Falsea]

If only the government has a a truly benevolent leader who can understand the working class and not abuse his power, then a communist system will be a helluva lot more effective than any other capitalist state we have today.

[Radiatia]

"Just look at the history of the Radiatian Federation," Said a conveniently placed character that I can't be bothered expanding on. "We were communist for years, and dabbled with fascism. Today there are fields of skulls, of the millions of people who died at the hands of both.

"Furthermore the economic effects of, in particular communism, which saw our people slowly starve to death are why we fought to be rid of it!

"Finally my good sir, I wish to point you to NSG where you will find a better audience for the discussion you wish to have."

[Eviliatopia]

Nazism is Fascism

Franco, Mussolini, Salazar and Pinochet can be considered as fascists. They were nationalists, authoritarian rightwingers who wanted to achieve Corporatism and to implement a strongly hierarchical society.

Mussolini's ambiguous positions set aside, they were not particularly racist.

Nazis on the other hand, focused their ideology around the Greater German Race, whose fate was to " dominate the world " and to conquer its " lebensraum ". Racism was deeply rooted in their ideology, at the expense of classical nationalisms ( see: the takeover of Austria ).
Franco was a classical nationalist, and he kept using the term "Race" as it was used during the 18th century ( the race means: the people in general ). He can be seen as the most fascist leader ever, and he was not a racialist.

Several other military dictatorships, like Greek and Argentinian ones, adopted this kind of fascism as well.

Nazism is a third postion between Fascism and Socialism. It is National-Socialist, whereas Fascism is National-Syndicalist.

I see Nazism as an highly authoritarian form of centrism. So, no Nazism =/= Fascism.

[Eviliatopia]

@OP: Yeah, a primitive form of Fascism worked in ancient Rome. But was it worth it? The horde of people wo have fallen, victims of Roman Imperialism, might want to say no.
The same thing applies for modern fascism ( I swear to trash the next guy who says that it is Nazism ), eventhough such a regime can be seen as a "lesser evil" in certain situations.

Communist autocracy, as known as Marxism-Leninism, is a negation of humanity and nature. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are examples of pure Collectivist villainy, who should never be forgotten by history.

Also, egalitarianism. What's the appeal??

[Falsea]

"That's what they all say, aye?" said the FPP chairman after hearing more prudish remarks from a capitalist nation
"I mean, how could you criticize a political system just because your nation suffered under it? It really depends on the head of state."
"Heck, look at us, our people work, we take their money and we give them back equally for 50 years now, and our economy is still balanced, not too small to starve our people and not too large to cause a higher class to emerge and take advantage"
"besides, it isn't the system's fault that you had idiot leaders in the past. Am i right"

[Radiatia]

"That's what they all say, aye?" said the FPP chairman after hearing more prudish remarks from a capitalist nation
"I mean, how could you criticize a political system just because your nation suffered under it? It really depends on the head of state."
"Heck, look at us, our people work, we take their money and we give them back equally for 50 years now, and our economy is still balanced, not too small to starve our people and not too large to cause a higher class to emerge and take advantage"
"besides, it isn't the system's fault that you had idiot leaders in the past. Am i right"

"No. You're not right. I don't think you could be less right if you tried, and I invite you to see the fields of dead bodies, of skeletal remains that are the result not only of purges, but of people freezing to death because the government was too poor to give them free heating.

"Why were they too poor? Because they relied on their citizens giving them money. But their citizens have no money because their have no incentive to make money. They were all slaves and as a result everyone was poor.

"Secondly, our sources show two things - firstly that the nation of Falsea is a right-wing dictatorship, not a communist nation.

"The fact that it depends on the head of state is significant, yes, but in an autocracy you have no choice as to who that head of state is. That's what autocracy means. You get no choice. You stand up to them, you die.

"Is that really a good system? Of course not!

"I am appalled, and deeply offended, as someone who grew up under communism, of the ignorance that you are displaying. But of course, I too was oppressed like you once, so I don't blame you.

"Propaganda is convincing, but I dare you to stand up to your government.

"Just once stand up and see what happens.

"Or... try and buy something. Try and buy a television, or a car. You won't be able to because your government keeps you poor.

"Socialism isn't bad per se, but communism is, and no communist nation has survived without transitioning to market socialism if not full blown capitalism.

"I pity you, and your poor backwards hellhole. But your defence of your oppression only goes to show just how enslaved you and your people are."

[Crystal Spires]

The Spirean Delegation felt like bursting out laughing at the Radiatan delegate if he wasn't so serious, and instead he smugly looked at the Radiatan with a shake of his head.

"Your people were revisionist, and didn't know a damn thing about Marxist theory which is why you failed so horrifically in its application. What Marxism does is not create a fully egalitarian society in practice, but it gives power to the workers who by their own merit deserve the compensation for their work. In a Capitalist Society people are forced to pay in order to be employed poverty inegalitarianism is not what Marxists despise about the System of Capitalism, it is the inherent stealing and exploitation from the WORKING people. Which is to say the workers contribute and put the most effort into product delivery and creation, but the fruits of their labors are stolen by greedy people who exploit them. Profit, by its nature, is anti-humanism and since we are actually all social creatures,it GOES AGAINST 'human nature' to act as a sociopath and steal from masses of people. And quite frankly the suggestions made that there's no incentive to work in a Communist society is ridiculous as Communist Societies reward workers who work harder as opposed to Capitalist ones where the hardest workers, the manual laborers, get paid the least.

[Radiatia]

Gotta be careful here. One wrong move and I'm the new Hippostania...

Also this debate will be shite for two reasons: 1. I am VERY tired and will go to bed as soon as I post. 2. These aren't my OOC views so I'm arguing for something I don't actually believe in.

The delegate, who still doesn't have a name due to the author being very tired, very jetlagged, and not taking this thread seriously, simply rolled his eyes at the idiot from Crystal Spires.

"My good sir, allow me lend you some money, seeing as I have so much thanks to the economic strength of my country, wherein you can recieve not only a proper education, but also the language skills necessary to communicate your, ugh, views." Said the man. "You slurred so much then that I could barely understand you, but of course isn't that what all the socialists do when they're busy moaning on their stupid union strikes? I suppose that's why we call you the great unwashed.

"I have read Marx, given that it was compulsory reading growing up, and let me tell you something. Sometimes.... just because something works on paper, the reality is very different.

"My people were 'revisionist' because we discovered something - reality is a very different thing to your Marxist fairy tale.

"Now I'm trying to understand what you were saying about capitalism... something about paying to be employed. I think you need a lesson.

"In capitalism what happens is, someone comes up with an idea. A product. This is called "innovation" something that you Marx-thumping lunatics know nothing about, with your continued veneration of long-debunked economic nonsense.

"This person, an individual, for we respect the rights of the individual given that individuality, and self awareness is what seperates man from animals, then finds ways to produce this product and is rewarded for his endevour.

"Often he must hire workers to help him produce it. These workers must be well paid or else they could easily leave, given that we have a thing called "freedom" wherein we don't force our workers to continue producing, based on the idiotic theory that if we produce enough, we will eventually create an excess of products which can be distributed to all.

"Resources aren't infinite. That's why capitalists pay for things. We know that there is not enough to go around, so we only give it to those who earn it.

"Anyway, these paid workers become consumers, which drives up demand, which then drives up demand for more workers, and allows the economy to continue growing in that fashion. Demand increases. Supply increases. Workers are paid for producing the supply. They use they money to buy more products, this continuing to increase demand again.

"The very idea that a bunch of uneducated drones are the hardest workers is... well uneducated drones would say they work harder wouldn't they?

"Try inventing something. Try starting your own business. Then tell me who the hard worker is and who needs reward.

"Now if you'll excuse me, I have an important business meeting to attend to, followed by a spa bath with my three voluptuous female servants.

"You hippies better go find a job, instead of moaning as you do."

[Blaist Blaland]

The ideology of communism is probably the most beautiful idea ever (in my opinion, at least) and has nothing to do with autocracy.

And I'm tired of people repeating "communism will never work because greed/human nature/whatever"... Greed is not human nature, it is a product of the society we live in. Our childhood determines a lot of our traits. And if you look at the USSR, their economy actually did work for a long period of time. You need to remember that when the revolution took place, their GDP was only 20% of USA's, you can't blame poverty on their socialism - they were already poor, and the Second World War hit them harder than probably any other nation, especially because they didn't get Marshall help as opposed to western Europe. USA lost no infrastructure in WW2, few soldiers and no civillians compared to USSR. But the USSR still had growth rates of 7% to 12% for several years following WW2, and at their collapse, their GDP was at 30% of USA's. So over-all they have actually had more economic growth than USA despite their troubles and stagnation in the end.
And before people begin to say that this is only possible because of the inhumane leaders like Stalin killing millions of people, please look up the history of USA and see how many atrocities it has committed itself. Here is just one example:
http://web.archive.org/web/200510301223 ... ground.cfm
Guatemala 1954, CIA helps overthrowing a democratically elected president with pressure from the United Fruit Company and cooperates with the succesing dictatorships for decades resulting in genocide, hundreds of massacres, killing of more than 200,000 people, systematic torture and kidnappings. Please do NOT say socialism/communism results in genocide and ignorantly act as if capitalism doesn't.

With that said, of course I don't want a world with genocides and people getting killed. I think a global socialist state where everyone is equal, direct democracy on political decisions and eliminating the divisive competition between people and nations is the best way to achieve that. Then we may achieve communism one day.

This is an IC thread. It wasn't meant to be an IC thread but.... it is now.

The RP community has conquered it!

I just found the thread from "Latest Forum Topics", didn't check what category it was in or anything, so sorry if my post doesn't fit into that. I don't usually go to these forums, I just found the headline interesting and was too curious to avoid the obvious risk of an xkcd 386 moment. So just move along, I guess.

[Radiatia]

The ideology of communism is probably the most beautiful idea ever (in my opinion, at least) and has nothing to do with autocracy.

And I'm tired of people repeating "communism will never work because greed/human nature/whatever"... Greed is not human nature, it is a product of the society we live in. Our childhood determines a lot of our traits. And if you look at the USSR, their economy actually did work for a long period of time. You need to remember that when the revolution took place, their GDP was only 20% of USA's, you can't blame poverty on their socialism - they were already poor, and the Second World War hit them harder than probably any other nation, especially because they didn't get Marshall help as opposed to western Europe. USA lost no infrastructure in WW2, few soldiers and no civillians compared to USSR. But the USSR still had growth rates of 7% to 12% for several years following WW2, and at their collapse, their GDP was at 30% of USA's. So over-all they have actually had more economic growth than USA despite their troubles and stagnation in the end.
And before people begin to say that this is only possible because of the inhumane leaders like Stalin killing millions of people, please look up the history of USA and see how many atrocities it has committed itself. Here is just one example:
http://web.archive.org/web/200510301223 ... ground.cfm
Guatemala 1954, CIA helps overthrowing a democratically elected president with pressure from the United Fruit Company and cooperates with the succesing dictatorships for decades resulting in genocide, hundreds of massacres, killing of more than 200,000 people, systematic torture and kidnappings. Please do NOT say socialism/communism results in genocide and ignorantly act as if capitalism doesn't.

With that said, of course I don't want a world with genocides and people getting killed. I think a global socialist state where everyone is equal, direct democracy on political decisions and eliminating the divisive competition between people and nations is the best way to achieve that. Then we may achieve communism one day.

This is an IC thread. It wasn't meant to be an IC thread but.... it is now.

The RP community has conquered it!

[Crystal Spires]

Also Hugs!:hug: WE TAKE OVER WITH IC!

"Typical words from a lazy know nothing Capitalist who tries to backwards revise his own tomfoolery. And as usual when without an argument instead he resorts to petty insults regarding my accent which is, as many would regard it, is standard English. I can see you're either drunker than a sailor or completely mad. First of all in Communist Societies the first thing you ought to know is we have free education up to secondary education which includes access to free tuition to a University degree, second of all, you claim to know about Marxism when you clearly are illiterate in it. In the Critique of the Gotha Program, Marx asserts that in the first phase of communist society the economy will distribute goods according to the norm, to each according to his labor contribution. Then society can move beyond the sphere of bourgeois right altogether and operate according to the norm, from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. This means that people who work harder actually do receive more for their contributions. In short, your claims are pathetic, and uneducated which reflects a lack of actual insight which reminds me of your second part, on economics so let's get to it." The Spirean Delegate said with a raising of a chart.

"First of all you begin with an idea, which is indeed and innovation, something Capitalists do not do, they actually pay someone else to get these ideas, these Capitalists are called investors and they own the means of production through no work or innovation of their own. When this inventor 'finds ways to produce this product' in your society he essentially sells his idea for someone else to take credit for his work. It is stealing, and a mark of the sociopathy common to your trade. The person who 'innovates' doesn't do the hiring, he is hired by someone who DOES NOT DO THE WORK. Resources aren't infinite, which is why resources should be allocated wisely to address the needs of the people who actually contribute and put effort into the upholding of society, not the greedy pigs who exploit others for their own ends. In short your acts reflect laziness deception and ultimately treason against your countrymen in your desire to set them as your enemy."

[Radiatia]

[OOC: Well this thread is NSG's problem now.

Unfortunately I can go no further with that IC debate for two reasons: 1. I don't have any more pro-capitalist arguments given that I don't agree with them IRL and 2. Radiatia isn't THAT capitalist IC anyway

I'm off to bed now. Goodnight!]

[Distruzio]

I either need moar coffee or moar beer b/c this OP makes no sense.

[Saluterre]

One of these things is not like the other...

[Crystal Spires]

D'awwww IC was taken away! Snap... *returning to NS an II forum in despair*

[Kilobugya]

What's really bad is putting communism, the ideal of a classless society and free, cooperating, emancipated humans, in the same question than fascism and autocracy which are totally antithetic to it.

[Ovisterra]

"Communism, Autocracy, and Fascism are completely unrelated to one another, so to speak so the comparison is offensive and also makes me believe you have no idea what the three of these ideologies mean." A Spirean Lobbyist said with a roll of his eyes.

This.

[Icamera]

...if the dictator was actually a good one then it would work too!

Been there, done that. First off, good luck finding a perfect fascist leader, dealing with resistance (because most people don't enjoy having their country turn into a fascist dictatorship) in a non-oppressive way, and making the guy immortal so you don't end up with his idiot son in charge.

[Seleucas]

Fascism and communism are just bad. Some forms of autocracy have gotten a worse rap than they deserve, however, though I would only go as far as saying that they were the lesser evil.

[Wamitoria]

None are objectively bad, but their practitioners can sure be jerks sometimes.

[Meryuma]

Communism ≠ dictatorship.