NATION

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NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

Should the National Sovereignty Organization become active in WA affairs once again?

Yes! And keep the current organization and forum as is.
26
19%
Yes! Keep the organization as is, but revamp the forum a bit.
23
17%
Yes! But create a new forum with links to the archives of the old one.
22
16%
Yes! But lets create a new organization and forum. The NSO is sooo 2006.
16
12%
No! Now go stand in the corner with the Flat Earthers and the Whigs.
48
36%
 
Total votes : 135

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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Compulsory Consumerist State

NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 4:30 pm

In light of recent discussions taking place in this thread, I'm wondering if the time has come for the National Sovereignty Organization to become active once again. National Sovereignty is, I feel, a philosophy which has been long neglected here, much to the detriment of the World Assembly and the overall quality of its legislative efforts.

There are many routes which could be taken here, ranging from the reactivation of the NSO "as is", to the establishment of a new NatSov-oriented organization, to doing absolutely nothing and allowing the WA to continue ramming its internationalist agenda down our throats.

So, what say ye, fellow members of the WA? Is there any interest in this? Is it a move which would be beneficial to our nations and our people?

Comments please.
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Ainocra
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Founded: Sep 20, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ainocra » Sun May 09, 2010 4:32 pm

National sovereignty is an issue that needs advocates. come speak loudly and I will on behalf of the people of Ainocra join you
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Freeoplis
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Founded: Dec 18, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Freeoplis » Sun May 09, 2010 4:33 pm

We would like to inquire what exactly is being proposed?
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Sionis Prioratus
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Founded: Feb 07, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sionis Prioratus » Sun May 09, 2010 4:48 pm

Our Senior Rabbis of the Order of the Most Secret Knowledge have concocted an army of golems which, in case this utter inanity comes into fruition, shall raze the NSO Headquarters & the lands of all its associates:

Image

Might I add a single one of these single handedly banished both Cthulhu and Mothra out of our sacred and most precious lands.
Last edited by Sionis Prioratus on Sun May 09, 2010 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Linux and the X
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Linux and the X » Sun May 09, 2010 6:00 pm

Sionis Prioratus wrote:Might I add a single one of these single handedly banished both Cthulhu and Mothra out of our sacred and most precious lands.

How did you get on/a to only use one hand?!
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.

1% of the nations have 39% of the votes. #occupyWA
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Sionis Prioratus
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Anarchy

Postby Sionis Prioratus » Sun May 09, 2010 6:49 pm

Linux and the X wrote:
Sionis Prioratus wrote:Might I add a single one of these single handedly banished both Cthulhu and Mothra out of our sacred and most precious lands.

How did you get on/a to only use one hand?!


See? They are that efficient!
Cathérine Victoire de Saint-Clair
Haute Ambassadrice for the WA for
✡ The Jewish Kingdom of Sionis Prioratus
Daughter of The Late King Adrian the First
In the Name of
Sa Majesté Impériale Dagobert VI de Saint-Clair
A simple truth

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Glen-Rhodes
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Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sun May 09, 2010 6:58 pm

INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM!!!

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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Posts: 466
Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 7:07 pm

Freeoplis wrote:We would like to inquire what exactly is being proposed?


I am trying to assess how much interest there is in a revival of the National Sovereignty Organization. If you would like to learn more about national sovereignty, a good starting place might be this historical document. Granted, the terms are a bit outdated. It was written about NatSov in the NSUN, but the basic concepts remain valid to this day.
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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 7:08 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM!!!


Stop spamming.
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Glen-Rhodes
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Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Sun May 09, 2010 7:14 pm

Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:Stop spamming.

That's not spam. It's an opinion on the matter of national sovereignty and reintroducing the National Sovereignty Organization. It's just more entertaining to scream INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM, than to write 10 paragraphs on the necessity of the World Assembly to not be preemptively limited in what it can do. 8)

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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 7:24 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:Stop spamming.

That's not spam. It's an opinion on the matter of national sovereignty and reintroducing the National Sovereignty Organization. It's just more entertaining to scream INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM, than to write 10 paragraphs on the necessity of the World Assembly to not be preemptively limited in what it can do. 8)


No, it's spam. If you don't have any substantive arguments to make then please go somewhere else.
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Linux and the X
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Founded: Apr 29, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Linux and the X » Sun May 09, 2010 8:14 pm

Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:Stop spamming.

That's not spam. It's an opinion on the matter of national sovereignty and reintroducing the National Sovereignty Organization. It's just more entertaining to scream INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM, than to write 10 paragraphs on the necessity of the World Assembly to not be preemptively limited in what it can do. 8)


No, it's spam. If you don't have any substantive arguments to make then please go somewhere else.

While I often disagree with Dr Castro, I have no choice her but to find that the Doctor's statement, while brief, is a reasonable point. I also note that, by your own standard, Ambassador Arororugul, of requiring 'substantive arguments', makes your claims themself spam.
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.

1% of the nations have 39% of the votes. #occupyWA
[violet]: Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Me, responding to a request to vote for a liberation: But... but that would blemish my near-perfect history of spitefully voting against anything the SC does!
Neu Mitanni: I'll just be tacky.

Twisting the words of the Right Wing for fun and profit: One Big Ass Mistake? America.

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Sagatagan
Minister
 
Posts: 2165
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sagatagan » Sun May 09, 2010 8:50 pm

The WA is a voluntary association. Isn't the point, giving up some national sovereignty, in exchange for a say in a federation of parties?
Confederation of participatory-democratic autonomous municipalities. Market socialist economy, some cantons practicing participatory economics. Environmentally sustainable economy. Enormous civil liberties. Nuclear-armed and missile defense equipped, to protect our autonomy.

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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 9:14 pm

Linux and the X wrote:While I often disagree with Dr Castro, I have no choice her but to find that the Doctor's statement, while brief, is a reasonable point.


His "statement" consisted entirely of screaming INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM!!!


I also note that, by your own standard, Ambassador Arororugul, of requiring 'substantive arguments', makes your claims themself spam.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you diagram that sentence?
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Grays Harbor
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Postby Grays Harbor » Sun May 09, 2010 9:22 pm

Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:Stop spamming.

That's not spam. It's an opinion on the matter of national sovereignty and reintroducing the National Sovereignty Organization. It's just more entertaining to scream INTERNATIONAL FEDERALISM, than to write 10 paragraphs on the necessity of the World Assembly to not be preemptively limited in what it can do. 8)


No, it's spam. If you don't have any substantive arguments to make then please go somewhere else.


Firstly ... Not the spam. Not the spam. You might also want to watch who you are telling to "go somewhere else". While we frequently disagree with Dr Castro and the Glen-Rhodes delegation, they are indeed one of the more learned, thoughtful and articulate opponents we have, whereas we have never before even heard of you.

Second ... While we are one of the leading voices of the National Sovereignty side of most arguments here, we also believe we do not require any specific organization telling us how and when and why to vote on any particular issue. Our arguments and votes are based solely on what we believe is best for our region and what is best for our nation, not on what some organization deems is best for us. To our way of thinking, that is little better than the International federationists, who mostly seem to want the WA to hold everybody's hand for them. How is having a national sovereignty organization which determines the issues for us that much better?
"I know you can see me. Bad guys always see me. My plans suck. People die. It's always a mess."
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"Stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas. Whatever!"

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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 9:22 pm

Sagatagan wrote:The WA is a voluntary association. Isn't the point, giving up some national sovereignty, in exchange for a say in a federation of parties?


But does it make sense, in each and every case, for the WA to violate national sovereignty? Just because it is a voluntary organization and it is accepted that you give up "some" sovereignty upon joining, does that mean that there should be no restraints? Are there not some instances where it makes sense to handle things at the national level? I think we all understand that some sovereignty is surrendered at the door, but does that mean that we all become puppets of the WA? And as for this "federation of parties", what are the advantages of that? Collective security? A common market? Neither of those things exist in the WA.
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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 9:30 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:Firstly ... Not the spam. Not the spam. You might also want to watch who you are telling to "go somewhere else". While we frequently disagree with Dr Castro and the Glen-Rhodes delegation, they are indeed one of the more learned, thoughtful and articulate opponents we have,

It was spam. Trust me, I've smelled it cooking before.

whereas we have never before even heard of you.

Bullshit.

Second ... While we are one of the leading voices of the National Sovereignty side of most arguments here, we also believe we do not require any specific organization telling us how and when and why to vote on any particular issue. Our arguments and votes are based solely on what we believe is best for our region and what is best for our nation, not on what some organization deems is best for us. To our way of thinking, that is little better than the International federationists, who mostly seem to want the WA to hold everybody's hand for them. How is having a national sovereignty organization which determines the issues for us that much better?


The purpose of the NSO never was, and hopefully never would be, to tell you how to vote.

Thank you for taking part in our discussion.
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Ryouese Black Islands
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Posts: 1754
Founded: Nov 01, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ryouese Black Islands » Sun May 09, 2010 9:31 pm

Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:
Sagatagan wrote:The WA is a voluntary association. Isn't the point, giving up some national sovereignty, in exchange for a say in a federation of parties?


But does it make sense, in each and every case, for the WA to violate national sovereignty? Just because it is a voluntary organization and it is accepted that you give up "some" sovereignty upon joining, does that mean that there should be no restraints? Are there not some instances where it makes sense to handle things at the national level? I think we all understand that some sovereignty is surrendered at the door, but does that mean that we all become puppets of the WA? And as for this "federation of parties", what are the advantages of that? Collective security? A common market? Neither of those things exist in the WA.


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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 9:53 pm

Sionis Prioratus wrote:Image


That's not a golem. That is a collection of child's babydoll body parts which some disturbed individual has arranged to look like an insect. Do not trifle with me Ambassador Saint-Clair.
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Sagatagan
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Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sagatagan » Sun May 09, 2010 10:06 pm

Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:
Sagatagan wrote:The WA is a voluntary association. Isn't the point, giving up some national sovereignty, in exchange for a say in a federation of parties?


But does it make sense, in each and every case, for the WA to violate national sovereignty? Just because it is a voluntary organization and it is accepted that you give up "some" sovereignty upon joining, does that mean that there should be no restraints? Are there not some instances where it makes sense to handle things at the national level? I think we all understand that some sovereignty is surrendered at the door, but does that mean that we all become puppets of the WA? And as for this "federation of parties", what are the advantages of that? Collective security? A common market? Neither of those things exist in the WA.


Well, no, it doesn't mean that the WA should perpetually be violating national sovereignty. But, a lot of resolutions would be meaningless without violating sovereignty in some way. I usually oppose a resolution that violates national sovereignty unless it has to do with human rights or environmental issues that effect the whole world because they're a fluid commons, like the ocean or the atmosphere. I would argue that we have a common market (with or without the WA) and agree that the WA gives little security, while arguing that perhaps it should NOT give a great amount of security, except to stop invasions. Otherwise, we get a near-monopoly of violence, and that's a whole new super-state. Anyway, yes, a nation should have sovereignty over its own lands and commons, and in all other fields unless human rights become a concern. However, some gratuitous infringing of sovereignty is to be expected, which is why the WA is voluntary, just like many other voluntary pacts and arrangements a nation can enter into that may violate less. Overall, I'd say, if you want to make sure that the largest pact in the world is both voluntary AND respects national sovereignty to a grater degree, go for it. I might even read your manifesto and support some of your actions.
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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 10:19 pm

Sagatagan wrote:Well, no, it doesn't mean that the WA should perpetually be violating national sovereignty. But, a lot of resolutions would be meaningless without violating sovereignty in some way. I usually oppose a resolution that violates national sovereignty unless it has to do with human rights or environmental issues that effect the whole world because they're a fluid commons, like the ocean or the atmosphere. I would argue that we have a common market (with or without the WA) and agree that the WA gives little security, while arguing that perhaps it should NOT give a great amount of security, except to stop invasions. Otherwise, we get a near-monopoly of violence, and that's a whole new super-state. Anyway, yes, a nation should have sovereignty over its own lands and commons, and in all other fields unless human rights become a concern. However, some gratuitous infringing of sovereignty is to be expected, which is why the WA is voluntary, just like many other voluntary pacts and arrangements a nation can enter into that may violate less. Overall, I'd say, if you want to make sure that the largest pact in the world is both voluntary AND respects national sovereignty to a grater degree, go for it. I might even read your manifesto and support some of your actions.


Well, in the past the NSO was never a monolithic organization in which all of the members were expected to march in lock-step. There were always members who tolerated breaches of sovereignty in the interest of advancing human rights and trade, for instance. I'm certain that any new incarnation of the group would have a similarly wide range of views rather than some enforced orthodoxy.
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Grays Harbor
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Posts: 15255
Founded: Antiquity
Father Knows Best State

Postby Grays Harbor » Sun May 09, 2010 10:21 pm

Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:
whereas we have never before even heard of you.

Bullshit.


:rofl: Seriously? Are you really that ego-centric that you believe that everybody has heard of you? Until this topic, we had no clue you even existed, therefore our respect level for what you may or may not have to say is at the "neutral/zero" level as we have nothing to base our opinion on other than this topic. And judging by what you have posted so far, we are not very impressed.

But, oh well, thats how the cookie bounces.
Last edited by Grays Harbor on Sun May 09, 2010 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I know you can see me. Bad guys always see me. My plans suck. People die. It's always a mess."
I stoke the fire on the big steel wheels; Steer the airship right across the stars; I learned to fight, I learned to love, I learned to feel; I wish that I could live it all again.
"Yes, I'm the Emperor. Here, you see? This is the seal of the Harberian Empire. Only the Emperor can wear it. So either I am the Emperor, or I am in a great deal of trouble. Or both.
"Stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas. Whatever!"

BRONZE PLAQUES OF HONOUR AWARDED TO GRAYS HARBOR

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Sagatagan
Minister
 
Posts: 2165
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sagatagan » Sun May 09, 2010 10:25 pm

Hell, I'VE never heard of the original poster.
Last edited by Sagatagan on Sun May 09, 2010 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Confederation of participatory-democratic autonomous municipalities. Market socialist economy, some cantons practicing participatory economics. Environmentally sustainable economy. Enormous civil liberties. Nuclear-armed and missile defense equipped, to protect our autonomy.

Left 7.88, Libertarian 8.65

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Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Founded: Mar 03, 2009
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Hiriaurtung Arororugul » Sun May 09, 2010 10:28 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:
Hiriaurtung Arororugul wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:
whereas we have never before even heard of you.

Bullshit.


:rofl: Seriously? Are you really that ego-centric that you believe that everybody has heard of you? Until this topic, we had no clue you even existed, therefore our respect level for what you may or may not have to say is at the "neutral/zero" level as we have nothing to base our opinion on other than this topic. And judging by what you have posted so far, we are not very impressed.

But, oh well, thats how the cookie bounces.

Well I'm terribly sorry that we haven't been introduced and I'll try to make myself more available to you in the future.

Now then, do you have anything to say about the matter at hand, or shall we continue discussing who is and isn't listed in the Grays Harbor Social Register?
Hiriaurtung Arororugul
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Grays Harbor
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15255
Founded: Antiquity
Father Knows Best State

Postby Grays Harbor » Sun May 09, 2010 11:21 pm

Our opinion of this organization has already been posted here, and we are not in the habit of repeating ourself.

Also, allcaps and multiple exclamation points does not make you seem more strident or more thoughtful, so it would be recomended you try to refrain from doing so in future, especially when it comes to topic titles.
"I know you can see me. Bad guys always see me. My plans suck. People die. It's always a mess."
I stoke the fire on the big steel wheels; Steer the airship right across the stars; I learned to fight, I learned to love, I learned to feel; I wish that I could live it all again.
"Yes, I'm the Emperor. Here, you see? This is the seal of the Harberian Empire. Only the Emperor can wear it. So either I am the Emperor, or I am in a great deal of trouble. Or both.
"Stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas. Whatever!"

BRONZE PLAQUES OF HONOUR AWARDED TO GRAYS HARBOR

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