For the historians: How important is this forum?

[Linux and the X]

Has anything (not counting res. 1, obviously) ever managed to be passed without being discussed here before submission?

[Grays Harbor]

Interesting question. Now that you ask, though, I'm not sure I recall any that were posted without discussion and passed in the WA. I believe there may have been a couple in the early days of the NSUN, but not recalling offhand which ones.

[Defwa]

Thats easy enough to check for someone really boring. Just go through the archives and the list of passed resolutions. Compare dates and names in case we have a situation where threads were made for others the moment something got to vote.

[Linux and the X]

Interesting question. Now that you ask, though, I'm not sure I recall any that were posted without discussion and passed in the WA. I believe there may have been a couple in the early days of the NSUN, but not recalling offhand which ones.

I can't imagine that, for example, hist. res. 4 was discussed anywhere prior to passage, yeah.

Thats easy enough to check for someone really boring.

That's why I asked the historians. (Okay, actually I asked hoping one of them might already know. But then you gave way too easy an opening for a bad joke.)

[The Dark Star Republic]

Has anything (not counting res. 1, obviously) ever managed to be passed without being discussed here before submission?

Yes. National Systems of Tax, United Nations Security Act, Abortion Legality Convention and Individual Self-Determination are all examples of resolutions that weren't drafted on the forum.

The idea that you "have" to post a draft to the forums is an obnoxious myth.

[Linux and the X]

Has anything (not counting res. 1, obviously) ever managed to be passed without being discussed here before submission?

Yes. National Systems of Tax, United Nations Security Act, Abortion Legality Convention and Individual Self-Determination are all examples of resolutions that weren't drafted on the forum.

The idea that you "have" to post a draft to the forums is an obnoxious myth.

Those are all historical, though. And half of them were repealed.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Those are all historical, though.

This is a thread marked "for the historians".

And half of them were repealed.

If your point is that most resolutions have been drafted on the forums, then doesn't it follow that most of the resolutions that have been repealed have been drafted on the forums?

[Linux and the X]

Those are all historical, though.

This is a thread marked "for the historians".

True. To disambiguate, those are UN resolutions, not WA.

[The Dark Star Republic]

"Gentlemen, you can't talk about history in here. This is the history room!"

[Frustrated Franciscans]

As it says, it all depends on what you mean by "being discussed." A number of resolutions were brought up without any drafting or even a debate thread on the part of the resolution author, but someone made up a discussion thread when the topic was up for vote. It's not like we sit on our hands whenever we see something up for a vote but can't find the discussion thread. How many of them passed and are still in effect is another matter.

I think we can all agree that in terms of actually getting a resolution passed, this forum is of very little importance.

[Mundiferrum]

As it says, it all depends on what you mean by "being discussed." A number of resolutions were brought up without any drafting or even a debate thread on the part of the resolution author, but someone made up a discussion thread when the topic was up for vote. It's not like we sit on our hands whenever we see something up for a vote but can't find the discussion thread. How many of them passed and are still in effect is another matter.

I think we can all agree that in terms of actually getting a resolution passed, this forum is of very little importance.

Which is kind of disappointing, since sometimes the biggest flaws of a resolution are revealed here, and only here.

[Bears Armed]

This is a thread marked "for the historians".

True. To disambiguate, those are UN resolutions, not WA.

And so, also belonging on that list, was the infamous (and quickly repealed) 'Max Barry Day'.

[Separatist Peoples]

As it says, it all depends on what you mean by "being discussed." A number of resolutions were brought up without any drafting or even a debate thread on the part of the resolution author, but someone made up a discussion thread when the topic was up for vote. It's not like we sit on our hands whenever we see something up for a vote but can't find the discussion thread. How many of them passed and are still in effect is another matter.

I think we can all agree that in terms of actually getting a resolution passed, this forum is of very little importance.

Which is kind of disappointing, since sometimes the biggest flaws of a resolution are revealed here, and only here.

Sure, if you're a regular. Newbs get much less help, regardless of how their proposals look. Which, to be fair, is often as much their attitude as ours. Alchemic Queendom is one I remember who had a cold reception to some excellent ideas their first time.

All things considered, though, I'd say this is a pretty important forum, if only because it houses the specialists not on international law, but on the game rules and requirements.

[The Dark Star Republic]

All things considered, though, I'd say this is a pretty important forum, if only because it houses the specialists not on international law, but on the game rules and requirements.

I wouldn't. The mods barely post here: last month the "retired" Flibbleites had more posts in this forum than the most active WA mods Kryozerkia and Ardchoille combined! Kryozerkia's petulant refusal to engage with the forum really means 99% of the rules stuff we talk about here is hot air, given she accounts for more gameside moderation than all the other mods combined.

Besides, I think most of us who post here don't do so because we think the forum is "important": WA regulars overwhelmingly take the game with much more of a sense of humour than Gameplayers do. We post here because it's fun, because it's roleplay, because it's a way of developing our nations and characters, because we're interested in international law, because we actually like the WA game.

Easy to see why the mods don't.

[Frisbeeteria]

Easy to see why the mods don't.

Yeah, we get it that you're unhappy with the current WA mods. Let's stop that particular threadjack, though.

Has anything (not counting res. 1, obviously) ever managed to be passed without being discussed here before submission?

Ever since we started stickying the Official Threads, there's been one for every At Vote proposal. I know the old NSwiki had a link to every official thread next to the proposal, so a simple factcheck would be to see if the Author of the proposal was also the OP of the Official thread. I suspect this could be done in the WA Archives as well, but it probably wouldn't be quite as well organized.

I'm not enough of a historian to spend the necessary time, but someone else could easily check it in only a few, mind-numbing, laborious hours.

[The Dark Star Republic]

Easy to see why the mods don't.

Yeah, we get it that you're unhappy with the current WA mods. Let's stop that particular threadjack, though.

The topic is "How important is this forum?" Discussing whether or not the forum is a useful place to get mod feedback is absolutely on topic. Nonetheless, I will give you: when there's a threadjack afoot or even worse someone posting with a long username, you're here on the b of bang! It's only when there's any really interaction with the players that the brick wall act resumes.

Anyway, I will move on.

so a simple factcheck would be to see if the Author of the proposal was also the OP of the Official thread.

Simple, but not very accurate. Some people post threads after/as they submit proposals, meaning that although the thread exists, there's no real drafting. Some people submit their resolutions after the thread's been up for less than 18 hours: it's hard to say in that case that the proposal was really "drafted" on the forum, it just kind of stopped in for a quick snack. Then there are proposals where the author puts up a thread but doesn't really respond to any comments: International Salvage Laws was, I think, one of those.

[Goddess Relief Office]

Debate in this forum is not necessary if the author knows what he or she is doing. A good resolution will get passed regardless, particularly if the author can move votes in the feeders and one or two large UCRs.

Personally, I've always found comments I've received from off-site forums to be more constructive than those I got here. I grant you the atmosphere here has improved from 4 to 5 years ago, thanks to people like Aligned Planets and Separatist Peoples, but posting here is still a hit and miss if the goal is to get good advice. Sometimes people get helped, sometimes they just get criticized for the sake of criticism.

[Frustrated Franciscans]

Ever since we started stickying the Official Threads, there's been one for every At Vote proposal. I know the old NSwiki had a link to every official thread next to the proposal, so a simple factcheck would be to see if the Author of the proposal was also the OP of the Official thread. I suspect this could be done in the WA Archives as well, but it probably wouldn't be quite as well organized.

It's not quite that simple. A lot of nations would post the resolution under their UN/WA nation (since that was required) but in turn post the thread under their more common nation name. Sure, a lot of them generally gave the name of "X's WA Puppet" to their WA puppet nations, but not all. It can be done, but it does require a knowledge of who is who.

[Ainocra]

The game is at it's dark twisted evil heart; about politics.

In order to be successful as a politician one must interact with the body politic. While it can certainly be argued that a resolution could be passed without doing so, and undoubtedly several have, those are outliers.

[Normlpeople]

The game is at it's dark twisted evil heart; about politics.

In order to be successful as a politician one must interact with the body politic. While it can certainly be argued that a resolution could be passed without doing so, and undoubtedly several have, those are outliers. I would

This. I know I am less likely to vote for something that isn't posted and debated beforehand (though that isn't set in stone). Others will not vote for it regardless. I do feel that posting here helps bring alternative views into the picture, in addition to advice gained elsewhere.

While some of the large regions with active offsite forums could easily draft there instead, multiple sources of advice are never a bad thing. Posting where the whole of NS can see it can only help ones cause, even if they ignore the advise given.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Personally, I've always found comments I've received from off-site forums to be more constructive than those I got here. I grant you the atmosphere here has improved from 4 to 5 years ago, thanks to people like Aligned Planets and Separatist Peoples, but posting here is still a hit and miss if the goal is to get good advice. Sometimes people get helped, sometimes they just get criticized for the sake of criticism.

Uh-huh. Which must explain why the major regions are on a bender to recruit GA regulars to staff all their WA ministries lately. I myself have been drafted to sit on four of them this year alone. But yes, I can definitely see your point, especially when players submit frivolous repeals such as this one, based on purely specious and suspect grounds, without so much as even checking to see if anybody on the forums thought it would be a good idea, and maybe get a few pointers on making their "argument" not so sucky, and then when it gets to vote the regulars unfairly dump on them for it -- for no good reason! Then those devilish GA regulars have to go and pick up afterward and replace the resolution with a nearly identical one, just to keep things running smoothly.

My point being, sometimes people have very good reason for being critical, and it's a good idea to take them seriously, instead of wallowing in some martyrdom complex as though it somehow excuses your mistakes.