[RE-DRAFT] Aviation Regulation Charter

[Separatist Peoples]

What loopholes would this open if you remove the domestic references and change VI.'s provisions? Domestic flights should not be held to international oversight or regulations.

How is the separation between domestic and international aviation is quite difficult to make?

"Indeed. I'd like to hear of a few loopholes that couldn't be addressed, ambassador."

[Voltrovia]

What loopholes would this open if you remove the domestic references and change VI.'s provisions?

OOC:
I'm using holes as a figure of speech, not a legal argument. I just think that if the resolution is going to cover aviation it should probably cover domestic as well as international flights. Also, I don't want the proposal to end up being too convoluted.

Domestic flights should not be held to international oversight or regulations.

That's an opinion, I afraid I disagree. I wouldn't have written this proposal otherwise!

How is the separation between domestic and international aviation is quite difficult to make?

I don't particularly like the idea of changing the spirit and letter of the entire proposal in re-writing VI. and possibly other parts of the text - I would re-write it, btw, instead of re-phrasing sections of the clause and this would also entail exemptions/explanations re domestic flights. Essentially, it isn't the proposal I'd really like to send to vote. Removing the domestic element isn't a bad idea, it's just one I don't support.

[Voltrovia]

What loopholes would this open if you remove the domestic references and change VI.'s provisions? Domestic flights should not be held to international oversight or regulations.

How is the separation between domestic and international aviation is quite difficult to make?

"Indeed. I'd like to hear of a few loopholes that couldn't be addressed, ambassador."

It was figurative, not literal.

[Jarish Inyo]

International passengers and companies are not affected by domestic flights. Domestic flights do not come under the purview of the WA. Domestic issues are not the purview of the WA.

The WA does not need a database of every pilot that does not fly internationally. Why should the person flying and ultralight on the weekend or a crop duster have to register with and international agency? Way should the WA regulate ultralights and crop dusters?

[Voltrovia]

International passengers and companies are not affected by domestic flights. Domestic flights do not come under the purview of the WA. Domestic issues are not the purview of the WA.

The WA does not need a database of every pilot that does not fly internationally. Why should the person flying and ultralight on the weekend or a crop duster have to register with and international agency? Way should the WA regulate ultralights and crop dusters?

[OOC: Are crop dusters commercial airliners? Even if they did need manufacturing datasheets and such under these regulations those would most likely be supplied anyway and hardly hinder the company making the crop duster - after all, it has to be airworthy. Anyway, this proposal applies to commercial aviation.]

[Jarish Inyo]

I'm using holes as a figure of speech, not a legal argument. I just think that if the resolution is going to cover aviation it should probably cover domestic as well as international flights. Also, I don't want the proposal to end up being too convoluted.

Removing domestic flights from would not make this proposal too convoluted. A resolution on international aviation doesn't and shouldn't cover domestic aviation. Domestic aviation covers more then airlines.

That's an opinion, I afraid I disagree. I wouldn't have written this proposal otherwise!

No, this is not an opinion. There is a deference between international issues and domestic issues. While regulating international flights and airlines are within the WA's concerns, domestic flights are not.

I don't particularly like the idea of changing the spirit and letter of the entire proposal in re-writing VI. and possibly other parts of the text - I would re-write it, btw, instead of re-phrasing sections of the clause and this would also entail exemptions/explanations re domestic flights. Essentially, it isn't the proposal I'd really like to send to vote. Removing the domestic element isn't a bad idea, it's just one I don't support.

It won't change the spirit qnd the letter of the entire proposal. Granted, removing references of domestic flights would remove most of clause VI. But of course, this proposal actually has more to do with controlling domestic flights then international flights.

[OOC: Are crop dusters commercial airliners? Even if they did need manufacturing datasheets and such under these regulations those would most likely be supplied anyway and hardly hinder the company making the crop duster - after all, it has to be airworthy. Anyway, this proposal applies to commercial aviation.]

Nice try. That only deals with one part of the question. Again, why should the people that fly ultralights and crop duster be registered with an international agency?

As this proposal is written, it doesn't apply to commercial aviation. As written, it covers all aviation.

Clause V, section 1 states: The registration of all active airlines, pilots and aircraft on a national and international level. It does not state airline pilots and airline aircraft. it states all pilots and aircraft.

Clause VI section 3 states:All commercial, private and state pilots must possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations as detailed by this charter and other globally recognised standards of flight education and training. Again it states private and state pilots. Why should the private and state pilots, who do not work for airlines, possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations if this proposal applies only to commercial aviation?

[Voltrovia]

Clause V, section 1 states: The registration of all active airlines, pilots and aircraft on a national and international level.

If you have a pilot's licence, you should be registered with your national regulator (and then with the international board). If you have a plane you should inform the national regulator that you have this plane, it should be licensed and airworthy. That's the essence of those lines.

Clause VI section 3 states:All commercial, private and state pilots must possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations as detailed by this charter and other globally recognised standards of flight education and training. Again it states private and state pilots. Why should the private and state pilots, who do not work for airlines, possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations if this proposal applies only to commercial aviation?

This section says that *all* pilots should be able to fly (and certified to do so in whatever reasonable manner their nation chooses). I don't really see a problem with that as it's hardly some great bureaucratic burden: pilots should be licensed to fly.

[Voltrovia]

snip

Look, we evidently disagree quite strongly both IC and OOC over the issues relating my proposal. I know that you are quite strongly opposed to my resolution proposal but this argument being dragged out from page to page without result. I am going to submit this proposal quite soon, maybe even tonight, and as I said before, I wouldn't have written it if I shared your stance. Therefore, I am not going to pull it on the basis of the ideological argument you've made.

I guess the question I have to ask is while we will evidently not come to an agreement on the ideological issues at hand, do you think that there are any legal issues with my draft?

[Jarish Inyo]

If you have a pilot's licence, you should be registered with your national regulator (and then with the international board). If you have a plane you should inform the national regulator that you have this plane, it should be licensed and airworthy. That's the essence of those lines.

You don't even bother trying to answer the question. That is not the essence of clause V sections 1. Why should non airline pilots and aircraft be registered with an international board if this proposal applies only to commerical aviation as you have stated?

[quoteThis section says that *all* pilots should be able to fly (and certified to do so in whatever reasonable manner their nation chooses). I don't really see a problem with that as it's hardly some great bureaucratic burden: pilots should be licensed to fly.][/quote]

That is not what clause VI section 3 states. It states that all pilots must possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations. Not certified to do so in whatever reasonable manner their nation chooses. Remember, if this proposal should pass, it does what it says it does. This would require all pilots to possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations no matter what they are flying. Is your International Aviation Regulatory Board going to have regulations for licencing pilots for gliders, ultralights, and etc that are not commercial aviation nor international aviation? And what about experimental aircraft designed and build by hobbyist?

Agaion, why can't domestic aviation be a matter left to the nations government?

[Jarish Inyo]

The only part we disagree on is if domestic aviation should be covered in this proposal. I agree with international flights being covered by international regulations.

What you refuse to see is that domestic aviation covers so much more then the commercial concerns that you claim this covers.

[Voltrovia]

The only part we disagree on is if domestic aviation should be covered in this proposal. I agree with international flights being covered by international regulations.

What you refuse to see is that domestic aviation covers so much more then the commercial concerns that you claim this covers.

Domestic aviation is at least in part regulated by the national board, which is subservient to its government whereas the IARB exists to monitor it, support it and if necessary enforce requirements. I do see the expanse of domestic aviation covered by this (which is largely due to the pilot and aircraft registration provisions) and I support the resolution's take on it. If I refuse to see anything, which is in itself an interesting turn of phrase, it is that this proposal could possibly be reworked with an international-only focus. However I support the resolution also having aircraft and pilot registries to back up previous WA regulations and make the ARC robust. If the proposal only dealt with international aviation it would be totally NatSov whereas this draft isn't totally NatSov in it's leanings but does, as it has from the start, certainly lean in that direction.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Indeed. I'd like to hear of a few loopholes that couldn't be addressed, ambassador."

It was figurative, not literal.

"I'm not interested in figurative problems. You claimed it would create loopholes, and I'd like to hear just one loophole that you couldn't otherwise fix."

[Jarish Inyo]

Domestic aviation is at least in part regulated by the national board, which is subservient to its government whereas the IARB exists to monitor it, support it and if necessary enforce requirements. I do see the expanse of domestic aviation covered by this (which is largely due to the pilot and aircraft registration provisions) and I support the resolution's take on it. If I refuse to see anything, which is in itself an interesting turn of phrase, it is that this proposal could possibly be reworked with an international-only focus. However I support the resolution also having aircraft and pilot registries to back up previous WA regulations and make the ARC robust. If the proposal only dealt with international aviation it would be totally NatSov whereas this draft isn't totally NatSov in it's leanings but does, as it has from the start, certainly lean in that direction.

There is no leaning towards NatSov in this proposal. It gives all authority over all aviation to the WA. With this proposal, there is no need for national aviation boards. You do not see the expanse of domestic aviation covered by this proposal. Of courser you support having aircraft and pilot registries. It's your idea. It is not need to backup previous WA resolutions on international travel. It's not need to make ARC more robust.

Others have voices their opinion that domestic aviation should not be covered, but you have refused to take their arguments under advisement.

National aviation boards do not need the IARB to monitor and support them. It does not need the IARB to enforce requirements. The IARB takes away the need for national aviation boards.

Is there any possible of you answering some of the questions in my previous comments?

Separatist Peoples,

There are none. Voltrovia already admits this. It was Voltrovia's attempt to have a reason why domestic aviation couldn't be removed from the proposal. It's just like the claim that this proposal only deals with commercial aviation, even though it's not written that way. And how Voltrovia can not answer why non commercial pilots and aircraft are bound to this supposedly commercial aviation proposal.

[Voltrovia]

It was figurative, not literal.

"I'm not interested in figurative problems. You claimed it would create loopholes, and I'd like to hear just one loophole that you couldn't otherwise fix."

OOC: I said that it might leave the proposal 'with too many holes'. By this I meant that it might exacerbate structural issues in the document and make the role of the IARB very different to the present design. Also, I don't think I said anything specific that could be about loopholes anywhere else in the thread. It wasn't a reference to any literal loopholes.

In short, I see the argument for a totally non-invasive resolution targeting international flights only but I feel that this resolution should also deal with some domestic issues. I am not trying to be obstinate but, despite your eloquent arguments, I am very unlikely to change this.

[Separatist Peoples]

In short, I see the argument for a totally non-invasive resolution targeting international flights only but I feel that this resolution should also deal with some domestic issues. I am not trying to be obstinate but, despite your eloquent arguments, I am very unlikely to change this.

"Why should the WA ever deal with purely domestic matters that constitute no threats to human rights? That is the point of national governments. If you are unwilling to make adjustments even in the face of sound logic, I'm afraid I'll have to oppose this with every tool available to me. Certainly, my delegate will be interested in my opinions on this attempt, if nothing else."

[Lexicor]

"Another draft to regulate air travel, another draft overreaching powers into national government territory by a longshot."

[Voltrovia]

Considering the plethora of replies regarding national affairs I've reflected on the charter and decided to make a few changes (because your logic IS sound, Separatist Peoples, Lexicor, Jarish Inyo). Therefore I have decided to put forward a set of possible revisions (i.e.essentially a U-turn, if you're cynical) for the draft:

Red = Changed

The World Assembly,

I. APPLAUDING the enormous contributions made by aviation and aeronautics to the socioeconomic progression of member states since the very beginnings of powered flight.

II. CONFIDENT in the genuine support of member states for the safety and security of aircraft and their passengers, as well as the advancement of that safety and security.

III. COGENT of the highly important and complex issues relating to national sovereignty and international security at hand.

IV. NOTES that in this charter various terms have specific contextual meanings, therefore affirming that:

(i) The terms "national aviation regulator" and "relevant national authority" shall refer to the authority or body, or authorities or bodies, responsible for the lawful conduct and regulation of civil aviation within a member state.

V. RESOLVES to establish the International Aviation Regulatory Board as an independent body responsible to the World Assembly and entrust it with the following areas of responsibility:

(i) The registration of all active international airlines and both the aircraft and the pilots of such international airlines.
(ii) Ensuring that national aviation regulation authorities comply with the regulations detailed herein.
(iii) The support and provision of resources where necessary for national air accident investigations and the authorities that undertake such investigations.

VI. DETAILS a specific regulatory framework for international civil aviation:

(i) All international airlines in operation should be registered with the relevant national authority and cross-registered at an international level with the International Aviation Regulatory Board by national aviation regulators.
(ii) All aircraft operated by international civilian airlines must possess acceptable and complete airworthiness documentation including records of any past incidents or accidents, flight cycles undertaken, the condition of engine systems and other recognised metrics of safety in addition to an effective appraisal of the capabilities of the aircraft (such as a general manual or manufacturing datasheet) provided by the manufacturer.
(iii) All commercial pilots and flight engineers involved in international flights must possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations as detailed by this charter and other globally recognised standards of flight education and training.
(iv) Member states must ensure that copies of all such relevant documentation and data must be held by national aviation regulators and also transmitted to the International Aviation Regulatory Board.
(v) Furthermore, all member states must possess an authority or group of authorities vested with responsibility over civil aviation and its regulation and which fulfill the role of a national aviation regulator as defined by this charter. Such bodies should be independent of the International Aviation Regulatory Board and pursue responsible policies under a framework devised by their sovereign national governments.
(vi)Should the bodies referred to in (v) request specific logistical or organisational support regarding civil aviation the International Aviation Regulatory Board is required to take the necessary action required to provide or otherwise administer that support effectively.

VII. ESTABLISHES that this charter is in no way applicable to any military forces actively maintained or held in reserve by member states or sovereign organisations.

[Voltrovia]

Considering the plethora of replies regarding national affairs I've reflected on the charter and decided to make a few changes (because your logic IS sound, Separatist Peoples, Lexicor, Jarish Inyo). Therefore I have decided to put forward a set of possible revisions (i.e. a U-turn) for the draft:

Red = Changed

The World Assembly,

I. APPLAUDING the enormous contributions made by aviation and aeronautics to the socioeconomic progression of member states since the very beginnings of powered flight.

II. CONFIDENT in the genuine support of member states for the safety and security of aircraft and their passengers, as well as the advancement of that safety and security.

III. COGENT of the highly important and complex issues relating to national sovereignty and international security at hand.

IV. NOTES that in this charter various terms have specific contextual meanings, therefore affirming that:

(i) The terms "national aviation regulator" and "relevant national authority" shall refer to the authority or body, or authorities or bodies, responsible for the lawful conduct and regulation of civil aviation within a member state.

V. RESOLVES to establish the International Aviation Regulatory Board as an independent body responsible to the World Assembly and entrust it with the following areas of responsibility:

(i) The registration of all active international airlines and both the aircraft and the pilots of such international airlines.
(ii) Ensuring that national aviation regulation authorities comply with the regulations detailed herein.
(iii) The support and provision of resources where necessary for national air accident investigations and the authorities that undertake such investigations.

VI. DETAILS a specific regulatory framework for international civil aviation:

(i) All international airlines in operation should be registered with the relevant national authority and cross-registered at an international level with the International Aviation Regulatory Board by national aviation regulators.
(ii) All aircraft operated by international civilian airlines must possess acceptable and complete airworthiness documentation including records of any past incidents or accidents, flight cycles undertaken, the condition of engine systems and other recognised metrics of safety in addition to an effective appraisal of the capabilities of the aircraft (such as a general manual or manufacturing datasheet) provided by the manufacturer.
(iii) All commercial pilots and flight engineers involved in international flights must possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations as detailed by this charter and other globally recognised standards of flight education and training.
(iv) Member states must ensure that copies of all such relevant documentation and data must be held by national aviation regulators and also transmitted to the International Aviation Regulatory Board.
(v) Furthermore, all member states must possess an authority or group of authorities vested with responsibility over civil aviation and its regulation and which fulfill the role of a national aviation regulator as defined by this charter. Such bodies should be independent of the International Aviation Regulatory Board and pursue responsible policies under a framework devised by their sovereign national governments.
(vi)Should the bodies referred to in (v) request specific logistical or organisational support regarding civil aviation the International Aviation Regulatory Board is required to take the necessary action required to provide or otherwise administer that support effectively.

VII. ESTABLISHES that this charter is in no way applicable to any military forces actively maintained or held in reserve by member states or sovereign organisations.

"The resolution now requires member states to have their own aviation boards responsible to them and under their control/policy direction, which is probably a far better plan than before. Nations should have such infrastructure in place but it is up to them to define the role and nature of that infrastructure. Slightly more amicable, wouldn't you agree?"

[OOC: This allows for the initial aim of requiring that their be aviation regulation within member states to be fulfilled as well as achieving the proper goal of international regulation - the national government, if it is so inclined, can simply establish such a national body and issue very few if any *internal* laws at all. While this might not be in the proper spirit of the proposal, for the most anti-regulation of national governments it surely would be a viable solution.]

[Voltrovia]

Any views?

[Jarish Inyo]

As this focuses on international aviation, I find this more then fair and in the purview of the WA.

[Separatist Peoples]

Any views?

"Yes: what was so hard about that?"

[Voltrovia]

Any views?

"Yes: what was so hard about that?"

[OOC: On honest reflection, not much at all. And the resolution is much better for it.]

[Voltrovia]

Red = Changed

The World Assembly,

I. APPLAUDING the enormous contributions made by aviation and aeronautics to the socioeconomic progression of member states since the very beginnings of powered flight.

II. CONFIDENT in the genuine support of member states for the safety and security of aircraft and their passengers, as well as the advancement of that safety and security.

III. COGNISANT of the highly important and complex issues relating to national sovereignty and international security at hand.

IV. NOTES that in this charter various terms have specific contextual meanings, therefore affirming that:

(i) The terms "national aviation regulator" and "relevant national authority" shall refer to the authority or body, or authorities or bodies, responsible for the lawful conduct and regulation of civil aviation within a member state.

V. RESOLVES to establish the International Aviation Regulatory Board as an independent body responsible to the World Assembly and entrust it with the following areas of responsibility:

(i) The registration of all active international airlines and both the aircraft and the pilots of such international airlines.
(ii) Ensuring that national aviation regulation authorities comply with the regulations detailed herein.
(iii) The support and provision of resources where necessary for national air accident investigations and the authorities that undertake such investigations.

VI. DETAILS a specific regulatory framework for international civil aviation:

(i) All international airlines in operation should be registered with the relevant national authority and cross-registered at an international level with the International Aviation Regulatory Board by national aviation regulators.
(ii) All aircraft operated by international civilian airlines must possess acceptable and complete airworthiness documentation including records of any past incidents or accidents, flight cycles undertaken, the condition of engine systems and other recognised metrics of safety in addition to an effective appraisal of the capabilities of the aircraft (such as a general manuals and design datasheets) provided by the manufacturer.
(iii) All commercial pilots and flight engineers involved in international flights must possess qualifications compliant with international standards and regulations as detailed by this charter and other globally recognised standards of flight education and training.
(iv) Member states must ensure that copies of all such relevant documentation and data must be held by national aviation regulators and also transmitted to the International Aviation Regulatory Board.
(v) Furthermore, all member states must possess an authority or group of authorities vested with responsibility over civil aviation and its regulation and which fulfill the role of a national aviation regulator as defined by this charter.Such bodies should be independent of the International Aviation Regulatory Board and pursue responsible policies under a framework devised by their sovereign national governments.
(vi)Should the bodies referred to in (v) request specific logistical or organisational support in the realm of civil aviation the International Aviation Regulatory Board is required to take the necessary action required to provide or otherwise administer that support effectively.

VII. ESTABLISHES that this charter is in no way applicable to any military forces actively maintained or held in reserve by member states or sovereign organisations.

[The Dark Star Republic]

OOC: I think you mean 'cognizant'. 'Cogent' makes no sense in this context.

Nitpicking aside, I continue to not see how this doesn't create a major duplication with International Transport Safety.

[Voltrovia]

"My delegation is considering resubmitting this proposal over the next few days - is there anything that any delegate might like to add to the document itself?"