by Linux and the X » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:44 pm
by Quelesh » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:23 pm
Linux and the X wrote:ALLOWS a person determined a danger to themself or others due to mental condition by a qualified psychiatrist to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated (where the psychiatrist deems possible) having input on the plan, (this clause could definitely do with rewording)
ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist, input from the person being treated,
by Linux and the X » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:33 pm
Quelesh wrote:Linux and the X wrote:ALLOWS a person determined a danger to themself or others due to mental condition by a qualified psychiatrist to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated (where the psychiatrist deems possible) having input on the plan, (this clause could definitely do with rewording)
Perhaps this wording would work?ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist, input from the person being treated,
Preventing unjustified involuntary psychiatric commitment is certainly something that I can support.
Alexandria Yadoru
Quelesian WA ambassador
by Zaklen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 pm
by Osthia » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:18 pm
by The Most Glorious Hack » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:49 am
by Linux and the X » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:53 am
The Most Glorious Hack wrote:...omne hoc iazensis?
by Ardchoille » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:55 am
The Most Glorious Hack wrote:...omne hoc iazensis?
by Linux and the X » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:43 am
by Moronist Decisions » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:00 am
DEMANDS that any person presented by the State or one of its subdivisions to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment have any treatment received at that facility, whether voluntary or involuntary, paid for by that State or its subdivision, without recourse to the General Fund unless that State is in the bottom 10% of GDP, and
CLARIFIES that this Act shall not be construed as prohibiting member States from further restricting or entirely banning involuntary psychiatric treatment within their borders, whether unilaterally, by multilateral treaty, or further legislation by this Assembly.
by Knootoss » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:17 am
Linux and the X wrote:BANS any involuntary psychiatric treatment except as provided herein,
Linux and the X wrote:CONSIDERS, for purposes of this Act, involuntary treatment as any that is not assented to by the recipient,
Linux and the X wrote:MANDATES that only those persons who, due to mental condition, are an immediate danger to themselves or others may be involuntarily subject to psychiatric treatment, and only for the mental condition causing such a state,
Linux and the X wrote:FORBIDS beliefs, opinions, thoughts, expression, & omne hoc iazensis being considered dangerous,
Linux and the X wrote:REQUIRES that any person presented to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment receive an immediate preliminary examination by a qualified psychiatrist,
Linux and the X wrote:PERMITS a person whose preliminary examination indicates that they may have a mental condition that causes immediate danger to themself or others to be kept in custody of the facility for the minimum time medically sufficient to determine psychiatric status,
Linux and the X wrote:ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist,
Linux and the X wrote:ORDERS that any person not deemed a danger to themself or others due to mental condition after the minimum time medically sufficient to do so be immediately permitted to leave the facility without being subject to any involuntary treatment,
Linux and the X wrote:DEMANDS that any person presented by the State or one of its subdivisions to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment have any treatment received at that facility, whether voluntary or involuntary, paid for by that State or its subdivision, without recourse to the General Fund unless that State is in the bottom 10% of GDP, and
Linux and the X wrote:CLARIFIES that this Act shall not be construed as prohibiting member States from further restricting or entirely banning involuntary psychiatric treatment within their borders, whether unilaterally, by multilateral treaty, or further legislation by this Assembly.
by San Benedict e San Francesco » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:46 am
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:It's not so much that we're off-topic as it is that the topic has run screaming from the thread.
by Southern Patriots » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:55 am
Panzerjaeger wrote:Why would Cleopatra have cornrows? She is from Egypt not the goddamn Bronx.
by Bears Armed » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:28 pm
ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist,
ORDERS that any person not deemed a danger to themself or others due to mental condition after the minimum time medically sufficient to do so be immediately permitted to leave the facility without being subject to any involuntary treatment,
by Linux and the X » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:13 pm
Knootoss wrote:Linux and the X wrote:BANS any involuntary psychiatric treatment except as provided herein,
What? Not even a preamble? Or a basic justification about why this resolution should exist and why it is an international issue? Just BAM! all involuntary psychiatry is banned except for this narrow list? Uhh...
Linux and the X wrote:CONSIDERS, for purposes of this Act, involuntary treatment as any that is not assented to by the recipient,
Okay. So performing CPR on someone is banned now because they haven't signed an assent form. Or painting a fence that hasn't consented. (Treating it with paint). Ridiculous definition.
Linux and the X wrote:MANDATES that only those persons who, due to mental condition, are an immediate danger to themselves or others may be involuntarily subject to psychiatric treatment, and only for the mental condition causing such a state,
Why "immediate" danger? Someone could be mentally rigged to explode at any moment and be a danger to their environment. Such a person should surely be treated. Not released just because the danger isn't "immediate".
And why should a state-of-the-art mental health facility (the WA already regulated on this in great, micromanagy detail) not be permitted to treat the whole condition of the patient? Why only treat the single thing that makes them an IMMEDIATE danger to their environment when there is most often comorbidity with other symptoms? Again, this makes no sense.
Linux and the X wrote:FORBIDS beliefs, opinions, thoughts, expression, & omne hoc iazensis being considered dangerous,
The weird latin is cute but I can assure you that when someone is using their own excrement to write out rape fantasies on the wall of their little padded chamber, mental health experts have reason to consider such a person dangerous. There is no reason for international law to step in and override the judgement of these professionals.
Linux and the X wrote:REQUIRES that any person presented to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment receive an immediate preliminary examination by a qualified psychiatrist,
IMMEDIATE preliminary examination? What's with the absolutist rhetoric again? What if the patient is completely freaking out as she arrives? What if the patient arrives in the middle of the night? What if the qualified psychiatrist is treating another patient at the time? Drop everything, damn common sense, immediate evaluation as soon as they cross the gate?Linux and the X wrote:PERMITS a person whose preliminary examination indicates that they may have a mental condition that causes immediate danger to themself or others to be kept in custody of the facility for the minimum time medically sufficient to determine psychiatric status,
Again, absolutist rhetoric. There's "medically sufficient", assuming that for every patient who enters there is a personal psychiatrist on hand who goes through an intensive evaluation process the moment they come through the gate, and there's "practical". This clause would result in patients being released before psychiatric status can even be determined.
Linux and the X wrote:ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist,
And if a qualified psychiatrist isn't immediately available, or for that matter available at all (developing nations!) then these dangerous individuals should be allowed to run free?
Linux and the X wrote:ORDERS that any person not deemed a danger to themself or others due to mental condition after the minimum time medically sufficient to do so be immediately permitted to leave the facility without being subject to any involuntary treatment,
This is again completely absolutist and runs on the fallacy that spending time in a mental health facility will, after a period of time, take away people's mental disorders. This is not true. And there are often gradations between "complete freedom" and "locked up in a padded cell". This clause effectively bans all these "middle roads", such as guided visits to the outside world.
Linux and the X wrote:DEMANDS that any person presented by the State or one of its subdivisions to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment have any treatment received at that facility, whether voluntary or involuntary, paid for by that State or its subdivision, without recourse to the General Fund unless that State is in the bottom 10% of GDP, and
This is a negative formulation but it pretty much means that the World Assembly will be made to pay for all mental healthcare in the poorest 10% of states. That's a massive social transfer to weasel into a negatively formulated sub-clause of a resolution that is, ostensibly, about human rights - not social justice.
Linux and the X wrote:CLARIFIES that this Act shall not be construed as prohibiting member States from further restricting or entirely banning involuntary psychiatric treatment within their borders, whether unilaterally, by multilateral treaty, or further legislation by this Assembly.
Yeah, thing is, you can't really write a clause into your resolution saying: "the duplication rule doesn't apply if anyone in the future writes more of what I want". This Act pretty much DOES prevent further legislation by the World Assembly on this very same topic.
If I may part on a general remark, it strikes me that the ambassador from Lunux and the X has had a bad experience in rehab or something and is taking it out on us.
by Linux and the X » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:16 pm
Bears Armed wrote:ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist,
ORDERS that any person not deemed a danger to themself or others due to mental condition after the minimum time medically sufficient to do so be immediately permitted to leave the facility without being subject to any involuntary treatment,
Could we please have the word "physical" added before "danger" in both of these clauses, so that -- for example -- militantly anti-theistic nations would not then legally be able to define the spreading of religious beliefs as a form of danger and thus still imprison believers within psychiatric establishments as certain of them have made it clear they wish to do?
by Knootoss » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:30 pm
by Puissancevise » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:57 pm
by David Williams » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:41 pm
Linux and the X wrote:Knootoss wrote:
What? Not even a preamble? Or a basic justification about why this resolution should exist and why it is an international issue? Just BAM! all involuntary psychiatry is banned except for this narrow list? Uhh...
Fair enough. A preamble shall be written.
Okay. So performing CPR on someone is banned now because they haven't signed an assent form. Or painting a fence that hasn't consented. (Treating it with paint). Ridiculous definition.
Painting a fence is psychiatric treatment now. How interesting.
Why "immediate" danger? Someone could be mentally rigged to explode at any moment and be a danger to their environment. Such a person should surely be treated. Not released just because the danger isn't "immediate".
The danger, in that case, would still be immediate. It is contextually clear, as I believe you like to say, that the requirement for immediacy prevents involuntary treatment of those whose condition could, maybe, in the wrong conditions, possibly eventually be dangerous or where, if the person says something to the wrong person who takes it the wrong way and does something in the wrong place cause someone else to do something dangerous.And why should a state-of-the-art mental health facility (the WA already regulated on this in great, micromanagy detail) not be permitted to treat the whole condition of the patient? Why only treat the single thing that makes them an IMMEDIATE danger to their environment when there is most often comorbidity with other symptoms? Again, this makes no sense.
No facility is banned from treating any condition if asked by the individual. They are simply not permitted to treat someone who does not wish to be treated.
The weird latin is cute but I can assure you that when someone is using their own excrement to write out rape fantasies on the wall of their little padded chamber, mental health experts have reason to consider such a person dangerous. There is no reason for international law to step in and override the judgement of these professionals.
A person who believes that their government is wrong, however, does not (at least inherently) have a dangerous mental condition. Because your situation requires an odd interpretation, I would consider alternative wording, but will not be attempting to reword it myself.
IMMEDIATE preliminary examination? What's with the absolutist rhetoric again? What if the patient is completely freaking out as she arrives? What if the patient arrives in the middle of the night? What if the qualified psychiatrist is treating another patient at the time? Drop everything, damn common sense, immediate evaluation as soon as they cross the gate?
Again, absolutist rhetoric. There's "medically sufficient", assuming that for every patient who enters there is a personal psychiatrist on hand who goes through an intensive evaluation process the moment they come through the gate, and there's "practical". This clause would result in patients being released before psychiatric status can even be determined.
I originally wrote separate responses to each of these, but they all came to the same thing: you are coming up with absurd interpretations to make this Act seem a terrible idea. A reasonable nation would not use such interpretations.
And if a qualified psychiatrist isn't immediately available, or for that matter available at all (developing nations!) then these dangerous individuals should be allowed to run free?
The Institutional Psychiatry Act already requires that member States have psychiatric facilities.
This is again completely absolutist and runs on the fallacy that spending time in a mental health facility will, after a period of time, take away people's mental disorders. This is not true. And there are often gradations between "complete freedom" and "locked up in a padded cell". This clause effectively bans all these "middle roads", such as guided visits to the outside world.
There is no prohibition on letting a person depart the grounds of the facility without completely leaving on a permanent basis, or from treating them on an outpatient basis. I'm not entirely sure how you're reading that other than, again, trying to make this sound bad.
This is a negative formulation but it pretty much means that the World Assembly will be made to pay for all mental healthcare in the poorest 10% of states. That's a massive social transfer to weasel into a negatively formulated sub-clause of a resolution that is, ostensibly, about human rights - not social justice.
I am making a slight grammatical change to that clause. While I suspect you will still dislike it, I hope you will see the purpose of it.
Yeah, thing is, you can't really write a clause into your resolution saying: "the duplication rule doesn't apply if anyone in the future writes more of what I want". This Act pretty much DOES prevent further legislation by the World Assembly on this very same topic.
Yes, I obviously meant to use the illegal interpretation.If I may part on a general remark, it strikes me that the ambassador from Lunux and the X has had a bad experience in rehab or something and is taking it out on us.
Thank you for your assessment. Your mockery of my nation's name is quite humourous as well.
by David Williams » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:46 pm
by Libraria and Ausitoria » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:30 am
Knootoss wrote:Feel free to ignore all my suggestions to improve the wording. That will make this proposal easier to campaign against and/or repeal. The basic gist remains, however, that this proposal would approach reasonableness if it got rid of all the morally absolute alarm words: "immediately", "always", "never" which, when taken to their logical conclusion, arrive at ridiculous extremes.
The fact is that this entire proposal breathes out an innate hostility to mental health professionals and does its very best to disempower them by trying to micromanage how they run their institutions for as much as the character limit will allow. A simple ban on psychiatric abuses could do all this without all these useless "procedural" clauses.
Finally, this is not a healthcare/social justice proposal so you have no business hiding (!) a vastly expensive social justice clause in there. That's basically trying to straddle two categories. Bad. Immoral. Possibly illegal. Don't do it. We already have a provision to fund healthcare anyway.
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by Linux and the X » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:33 am
by Democratic Consensia » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:30 pm
Linux and the X wrote:(human rights; significant)
The World Assembly
BANS any involuntary psychiatric treatment except as provided herein,
CONSIDERS, for purposes of this Act, involuntary treatment as any that is not assented to by the recipient,
MANDATES that only those persons who, due to mental condition, are an immediate physical danger to themselves or others may be involuntarily subject to psychiatric treatment, and only for the mental condition causing such a state,
FORBIDS beliefs, opinions, thoughts, expression, & omne hoc iazensis being considered dangerous1,
REQUIRES that any person presented to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment receive an immediate2 preliminary examination by a qualified psychiatrist,
PERMITS a person whose preliminary examination indicates that they may have a mental condition that causes immediate physical danger to themself or others to be kept in custody of the facility for the minimum time medically sufficient to determine psychiatric status,
ALLOWS a person who is determined, by a qualified psychiatrist, to be a physical danger to themself or others due to a mental condition to be involuntarily subject to an appropriate treatment plan developed by a qualified psychiatrist, with input from the person being treated, where deemed possible by the psychiatrist,
ORDERS that any person not deemed a physical danger to themself or others due to mental condition after the minimum time medically sufficient to do so be immediately permitted to leave the facility without being subject to any involuntary treatment,
DEMANDS that any person presented by the State or one of its subdivisions to a psychiatric treatment facility for involuntary treatment have any treatment received at that facility, whether voluntary or involuntary, paid for by that State or its subdivision, without recourse to the General Fund, unless that State is in the bottom 10% of GDP, and
CLARIFIES that this Act shall not be construed as prohibiting member States from further restricting or entirely banning involuntary psychiatric treatment within their borders, whether unilaterally, by multilateral treaty, or further legislation by this Assembly.
(2156 chars)
Related legislation: Institutional Psychiatry Act (res. 140)
Ailiailia wrote:It's like your argument just hit an iceberg, and you're up in the bridge yelling FULL AHEAD engines! Give me MORE POWER there's SOMETHING IN THE WAY ...
by Sionis Prioratus » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:32 pm
Linux and the X wrote:MANDATES that only those persons who, due to mental condition, are an immediate physical danger to themselves or others may be involuntarily subject to psychiatric treatment, and only for the mental condition causing such a state,
by Unibot II » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:52 pm
Linux and the X wrote:
MANDATES that only those persons who, due to mental condition, are an immediate physical danger to themselves or others may be involuntarily subject to psychiatric treatment, and only for the mental condition causing such a state,
FORBIDS beliefs, opinions, thoughts, expression, & omne hoc iazensis being considered dangerous,[/url]
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
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