The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[The Royal Kingdom of Quebec]

Your input on that is welcome, but the weight of the different R's is only loosely related to the topic at hand, and would require a lot of infrastructural change. It's probably best if we discuss this after we're done with the nation-switching rule-to-be.

I remain unconvinced that such a proposed rule is anything other than a solution in search of a problem. I should also note that every single person who has spoken up in favor of it so far is an #nssport regular.

Thanks for your confession, with you causing problems just because those stating this matter are from one channel.

Really, you having a blatant problem with members of one channel is ridiculous. Knock it off.

[San Jose Guayabal]

90-something% of nation successions are entirely legitimate, no grey area, and won't be affected in the slightest.

wow this is all one sentence It's not too hard to think of times where excuses that a connection would be established are made and ultimately failed to materialise. Yes, when it happens, it's a big deal. IC doesn't get to be thrown out the window when someone wants to pick and choose what 'a fresh start' means. Successors are successors, new nations are new nations.


Time, patience and diligence are rewarded.


One would think so, yes.


It's not a name change. Nothing links the two nations together apart from maybe one or two ex-pats.

What I'm puzzled by is why this issue is coming up now when I had thought it was settled months ago. Did Anglatia do something to piss off #nssport today or something?

Though I understand your point of being against this, but why to come here and satanize the users of an IRC Channel? I mean, anybody can think that and puropose that by its own, not driven by emotions. Also, what's going on with that sort of "paranoic" attitude, now every proposal has a "dark" and "twisted" intentions to "satisfy the interests" of a group of people? I mean, this attitude is toxic and doesn't contributes to anything, since it's useless to the topic of conversation, or tell me, will attacking a channel help positively? Of course it won't do that.

Your input on that is welcome, but the weight of the different R's is only loosely related to the topic at hand, and would require a lot of infrastructural change. It's probably best if we discuss this after we're done with the nation-switching rule-to-be.

I remain unconvinced that such a proposed rule is anything other than a solution in search of a problem. I should also note that every single person who has spoken up in favor of it so far is an #nssport regular.

Again, does your bashing towards #nssport regulars help in anything? You are trying to divide things more instead of trying to help and offer a better solution...

[Starblaydia]

Contrary to what a few people have said in this thread, the World Cup was actually founded on Entertainment, Realism and Competition. Way back in WC20 Druida and I were quoting that as part of the original tenements of the World Cup in our bid. The structure of our Qualifiers and Finals, the existence of rankings and use of FIFA rules all point to this.

So far I've seen Anglatia care about his ranking points enough to want to keep them while trying to tell us that nobody cares about ranking points. If we kept ranking points to users rather than nations then what would be the point of starting puppets from zero, shouldn't they just have the same rank as their master nation? This, of course, is ludicrous. Simply changing one nation name to another is not, for me, acceptable. Nations do not simply appear in the middle of the KPBs with records unrelated to their national team's non-existant performance.

For an example of when name changes are actually acceptable, ESF changed to Valanora, way back when, because the actual name of the nation changed ICly. Same team, same spot on the map, same cities and clubs, just the nation's name itself. FSSO to Eura, that sort of thing.

Not half the footballers ICly moving over so that means I can keep my ranking, not 'oh look Bahrain is taking Olympic athletes from other nations so mine can too' despite the fact that both NS and FIFA rules on players switching nations are fairly clear (the only ones who have are literally immortal beings or otherwise ageless RP characters from dead nations) and it's actually the IAAF that allows nation switching like that.

Simply, you RP with the nation you've got. If you don't like your nation any more and are starting a new one, then that national team starts from scratch too. If one has been taken over by a glorious attitude-changing revolution that has renamed the country itself, then fine, but new is new.

[Hannasea]

I remain unconvinced that such a proposed rule is anything other than a solution in search of a problem. I should also note that every single person who has spoken up in favor of it so far is an #nssport regular.

I'm in favor of the rule change, and I don't believe I've visited that IRC channel since before your nation was founded. So that's one.

Way back in WC20 Druida and I were quoting that as part of the original tenements of the World Cup in our bid.

[Anglatia]

NS sports has never been about realism, I don't think that argument works unless we also start enforcing human only players, single gender teams, modern tech level technology, and real life roster rules and schedules. And ICly, if the rankings are anything like the real FIFA rankings(correct me if I'm wrong about them being based on those), they're completely meaningless. Nobody(I'm talking IRL and presumably IC) cares about rankings, and it's not unrealistic for there to be no logic behind them.

While NS Sports has admittedly never been about realism, there are a few things that are set in stone. One of them, for example, is the fact that the World Cup proper has 32 teams. Another is the fact that new nations are not handed over another, different nation's ranking for no apparent reason. KPB ranking is very often referenced in RPs. Surely you, too, have noticed that.

For example, you're saying that if someone were to play in NS sports for ten years and reach the number one spot, they should lose all of that and have to start over(start over in a process that takes literal OOC years) if they want to use a different nation?

You hit the nail on the head.

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

Your input on that is welcome, but the weight of the different R's is only loosely related to the topic at hand, and would require a lot of infrastructural change. It's probably best if we discuss this after we're done with the nation-switching rule-to-be.

I know that rank is referenced in RP, but my point is that it shouldn't matter more than years of work, especially when the real life FIFA World Rankings are widely considered to be either pointless or broken. I mean that it's not unrealistic for nonsensical things to happen with the rankings.

the World Cup was actually founded on Entertainment, Realism and Competition. <snip>

So far I've seen Anglatia care about his ranking points enough to want to keep them while trying to tell us that nobody cares about ranking points. If we kept ranking points to users rather than nations then what would be the point of starting puppets from zero, shouldn't they just have the same rank as their master nation? This, of course, is ludicrous. Simply changing one nation name to another is not, for me, acceptable. Nations do not simply appear in the middle of the KPBs with records unrelated to their national team's non-existant performance.
<snip>
Simply, you RP with the nation you've got. If you don't like your nation any more and are starting a new one, then that national team starts from scratch too. If one has been taken over by a glorious attitude-changing revolution that has renamed the country itself, then fine, but new is new.

Even if the World Cup was founded on realism, there's no way it can be considered realistic anymore. It could be made realistic, but I predict that we'd have to ban half the participants for breaking FIFA rules(i.e, non human teams, mixed gender teams, fog monsters, etc).

And I said that ranking is meaningless ICly, not OOCly. I elaborated on that in my reply to Farf.

Anyway, we should wait for the head of the WCC to say something, because all of this talk is pointless unless someone in an official position is going to say if this is a problem or not. I apologize if I'm being overly argumentative/defensive, but I'm under a lot of stress this week(I just had a bunch of stuff stolen) and I don't feel like arguing over fake countries or whether everything I've done for the past year or so should be discounted because I did it under a different nation.

EDIT: Also, I just want to say that not allowing rank transfer is even more detrimental to realism. Now, if someone wants to make a new nation but they've worked on getting rank points for a long time, there's a good chance that they'll have some kind of change in the original nation instead regardless of established IC canon. For example, by this logic, I could decide tomorrow that Anglatia is going to undergo a hippy revolution and turn into a nation of intersectional feminists and anarcho-Marxists, who love internationalism and are also pacifists. Now, this is basically the complete opposite of realism because of the established IC history of the nation, but if you don't let people move their rank over, you're probably going to see things like this when users want a new nation and don't want to lose their work.

[North Eurasian Unified Sporting Team]

Anyway, we should wait for the head of the WCC to say something, because all of this talk is pointless unless someone in an official position is going to say if this is a problem or not. I apologize if I'm being overly argumentative/defensive, but I'm under a lot of stress this week(I just had a bunch of stuff stolen) and I don't feel like arguing over fake countries or whether everything I've done for the past year or so should be discounted because I did it under a different nation.

Starblaydia is one of the most respected user in the community and his opinion count as much as the opinion of the current WCC president.

[Nephara]

Anyway, we should wait for the head of the WCC to say something, because all of this talk is pointless unless someone in an official position is going to say if this is a problem or not.

With a majority, it is my pleasure to announce Nephara as Valanora's successor to the role of WCC Vice-President.

[Audioslavia]

Starblaydia is one of the most respected user in the community and his opinion count as much as the opinion of the current WCC president.

As WCC president, I propose a rule whereby anyone who implies Starblaydia is as cool as me gets twenty lashes.

I jest, of course. The reason I'm posting here is actually to divert this argument back on course. There's been far too much mud thrown around over the last two pages. It's easy to get caught up in an argument, but please try to conduct each discussion on its own merits and refrain from dredging up old disagreements and rivalries in the process.

I agree with Saintland in that I don't believe that there is a pressing need to enforce a change to the WCC's rules. However, with my ever-wonderful VP having proposed the argument, and with there having been one 'second' (still short of the necessary number of seconds to force a vote), I think it's worth examining the argument.

I've written a very rough draft for a possible constitutional amendment. My technical writing skills have always been quite poor, so please bear that in mind. I've done this to show how difficult it would be to put such a new rule into writing. It is, however, more or less a confirmation of an as-yet unwritten rule, with is pretty much how common law works (NB: I have absolutely no idea how common law works. I've never passed a bar of any kind, as anyone who's ever been out on the town with me will testify)

3.1 KPB Rankings
i) Every World Cup shall use the official KPB Rankings system to determine ranks before the Qualifiers begin
ii) The ranking formula must be public
iii) The full list of ranks must be made publicly available in a suitable format
iv) Any changes to the KPB formula must be approved by WCC vote.

3.1.1 KPB Updates
i) The ranks must be updated in a timely manner by responsible and knowledgeable WCC members
ii) The ranks must be updated after the Baptism of Fire, so new nations receive their correct rank going into the World Cup (Qualifiers).
iii) The ranks may be updated after World Cup Qualifiers at the request of the World Cup hosts.
iv) The ranks must be updated after the World Cup and Cup of Harmony Finals have both finished.

3.2 Exchanging of ranking points between nations
A nations KPB points are the property of the nation, not the user. A user many transfer the ranking points from one nation to another only if one or more of the following criteria are met:
i) The nation receiving the ranking points is a clear and direct continuation of the previous nation controlled by the same user.
ii) The nation giving the ranking points is absorbed into a larger nation controlled by the same user.
iii) There is a perfectly viable in-character reason for a user's nation to receive the ranking points of another of the user's nations, that has been written about extensively by the user in IC roleplays.

A nation may not receive another nation's KPB points if:
iv) The receiving nation already has, or has ever had, a KPB rank.
v) The receiving nation is controlled by a different user.
vi) The exchanged is vetoed by both the WCC President and WCC Vice President, after consulation with the rest of the WCC.

[Chiata]

It isn't unrealistic. If anything, the rankings don't matter enough. In two World Cup cycles, I have risen from the spot occupied by St. Kitts and Nevis in the FIFA rankings, to 25th, above Holland. There are countless other cases of this.

Seconding it, risen from 317th (WC 66) to 35th (WC 68), all what you need is dedication to it.

*And luck

[Valanora]

I have to agree with Audio here, I don't think a formal ruling is necessary as the informal rule has worked for years now with almost no incident. It has always been stated that only true successor nations (such as ESF to Valanora, FSSO to Eura, AiF to The Holy Empire, etc...) are allowed to inherit ranking points. While I appreciate the notion of someone not wanting to feel like their work is all for nothing, it does not entitle you to transfer your ranking indiscriminately. Gilbrater is not having the ranking of Spain or England attributed to it, for a RL example, despite its ties with those nations as it is its' own nation and has to begin anew.

[Nephara]

The unwritten rule has been written down, with more or less the same criteria as are already the case. Perhaps unsurprisingly I'm a fan of making it official, and I can't see any issues with that wording. The way I figure, it makes it clear enough for everyone and there's no harm in putting it down in writing.

[Bears Armed]

Even if the World Cup was founded on realism, there's no way it can be considered realistic anymore. It could be made realistic, but I predict that we'd have to ban half the participants for breaking FIFA rules(i.e, non human teams, mixed gender teams, fog monsters, etc).

Show me the FIFA rule that explicitly excludes anthropomorphic Bears!

[Bonesea]

I think Audio's done a decent job there in draft and I certainly support the gist of the argument, but is this addressing a real and pressing need? It feels more like legislation for the sake of legislating, and that would be the more worrisome precedent. I've been in and out over the past few years so perhaps I've missed all sorts of KPB-swap shenanigans, but I'm guessing probably not. I also think it will have a fairly subjective grey area even when legislated - how much IC continuity will satisfy the ruling, precisely? If you make a rule to address a grey area and the grey area remains, is there a point to the ruling? I would think common sense and healthy debate ought to solve most requests without turning the constitution into a bureaucratic morass.

[Starblaydia]

Way back in WC20 Druida and I were quoting that as part of the original tenements of the World Cup in our bid.

Testaments. Wrote that one on my phone

Anyway, we should wait for the head of the WCC to say something, because all of this talk is pointless unless someone in an official position is going to say if this is a problem or not.

Starblaydia is one of the most respected user in the community and his opinion count as much as the opinion of the current WCC president.

D'awww

As WCC president, I propose a rule whereby anyone who implies Starblaydia is as cool as me gets twenty lashes.

Cooler.

I think the draft version you've put up there is a decent one, and despite the #oldguard #oldboysclub #arentnationsprobablygenderneutral 'unwritten rules' way of doing things working for most of the last decade, it's probably easier in the long run to legislate these little things when they come up, rather than descend into a page or two of arguing rigorous debate. As Bonesea has pointed out, though, it's hard to pin down exactly what an IC justification would look like - unlike WCC membership, for instance, which is easily defined.

[Saintland]

I have one minor change to make to Audio's proposal (well actually 2, if you count fixing Audio's typos ):

3.2 Exchanging of ranking points between nations
A nations KPB points are the property of the nation, not the user. A user many transfer the ranking points from one nation to another only if one or more of the following criteria are met:
i) The nation receiving the ranking points is a clear and direct continuation of the previous nation controlled by the same user.
ii) The nation giving the ranking points is absorbed into a larger nation controlled by the same user.
iii) The nation giving the ranking points has broken up and the transferring nation is one of the successors of the former nation.
iv) There is a perfectly viable in-character reason for a user's nation to receive the ranking points of another of the user's nations, that has been written about extensively by the user in IC roleplays.
v) The exchange is approved by the WCC President or the WCC Vice President, after consultation with the rest of the WCC.

A nation may not receive another nation's KPB points if:
vi) The receiving nation already has, or has ever had, a KPB rank distinct from that of the giving nation.
vii) The receiving nation is controlled by a different user.
viii) The exchange is vetoed by both the WCC President and WCC Vice President, after consultation with the rest of the WCC.

Under the original proposal, as written by Audio, a rank transfer that didn't meet the first 3 criteria would have to be rejected under the letter of the rules even if everybody felt it should happen. A future WCC President may very well assume that the letter of the rules is what was meant and then it'll end up having to be amended just to allow for the intended discretion on these matters. That's the danger inherent in writing something down.

EDIT: In light of Greg's post, I added "distinct from that of the giving nation" to the former v) and added a new iii)

[Gregoryisgodistan]

I'd also amend it to include a situation like RL Germany/West Germany/East Germany or NS's Saintland/West Saintland/East Saintland where one nation splits into two smaller nations, to allow one of the two to inherit the rating, and to allow the original to inherit the ranking in the event of future unification. Under the way it's written, neither of those would be allowed. If it is amended to allow for those, I will second it.

[Saintland]

I'd also amend it to include a situation like RL Germany/West Germany/East Germany or NS's Saintland/West Saintland/East Saintland where one nation splits into two smaller nations, to allow one of the two to inherit the rating, and to allow the original to inherit the ranking in the event of future unification. Under the way it's written, neither of those would be allowed. If it is amended to allow for those, I will second it.

I didn't notice that, but I'll edit that in as well, I guess.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

I'd also amend it to include a situation like RL Germany/West Germany/East Germany or NS's Saintland/West Saintland/East Saintland where one nation splits into two smaller nations, to allow one of the two to inherit the rating, and to allow the original to inherit the ranking in the event of future unification. Under the way it's written, neither of those would be allowed. If it is amended to allow for those, I will second it.

I didn't notice that, but I'll edit that in as well, I guess.

In that case, seconded.

[Jeruselem]

Just to note WC76 signup thread has been pushed to the 3rd page if anyone is looking for it.

[Bears Armed]

I'd also amend it to include a situation like RL Germany/West Germany/East Germany or NS's Saintland/West Saintland/East Saintland where one nation splits into two smaller nations, to allow one of the two to inherit the rating, and to allow the original to inherit the ranking in the event of future unification. Under the way it's written, neither of those would be allowed. If it is amended to allow for those, I will second it.

That sort-of happened with Bears Armed. It wasn't exactly a full split like that, but the [pre-exisiting] largely autonomous government in The Ursine Northlands decided that because the national team had never included many Northlanders they wanted to submit a separate "national" team and this was allowed: There then followed several World Cup cycles in which the rating of the former national team was inherited by a 'Bears Armed (Mainland)' one while the Northlands' team started from scratch, after which the separation was scrapped and the BA(M)'s rating passed back to a single 'national' team again.

[Audioslavia]

Right then, scallywags, we have one bid for the Baptism of Fire tournament and one bid for the World Cup. Any other potential bidders should get their entries in by Midnight UTC, Saturday 27th August, after which time voting will begin on WC and BoF hosts and any rule changes that get enough seconds in the mean time.

[Alasdair I Frosticus]

I've been away from NS for several days due to RL commitments, but my tuppence worth...

Broadly in favour of some sort of control over the exchange of KPB points so long as we get it right, but not 100% thrilled with the current proposals on the table since they tend to introduce a new level of difficult to police subjectivity with each separate subclause. Subjectivity is impossible to avoid here, but it's likely best to keep things simple with this sort of thing rather than complicating them with additional subclauses.

I would offer the following version:

3.2 Exchanging of ranking points between nations
A nation's KPB points are the property of the nation, not the user. A user many transfer the ranking points from one nation to another only if one or more of the following criteria are met:
i) The nation receiving the ranking points offers clear and direct IC continuity between the previous nation and the new nation.
ii) The transfer of ranking points is approved by both the WCC President and Vice President (who may choose to consult with the WCC before reaching a decision).

A nation may not receive another nation's KPB points if:
iii) The receiving nation already has, or has ever had, a KPB rank.
iv) The receiving nation is controlled by a different user.

I've intentionally not specified the different IC circumstances where the transfer is permitted, only keeping it to 'direct IC continuity', and granting final approval to the president and VP. I think that's a better approach than clogging things up with different scenarios. Anyone who's been elected president presumably has both the trust of the community and a certain level of awareness of what the protocols are.

Also, obviously I'm writing here as a player rather than a mod (and have chosen this nation to post with to make that obvious), but can I just say that I'm disappointed at the extent to which some of the discussion has been trying to use an off-site dispute relating to an IRC channel that many people posting in this thread rarely (or never) use to colour approaches to this debate.

I'd like to ask that we focus here on what happens on NS.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

I've been away from NS for several days due to RL commitments, but my tuppence worth...

Broadly in favour of some sort of control over the exchange of KPB points so long as we get it right, but not 100% thrilled with the current proposals on the table since they tend to introduce a new level of difficult to police subjectivity with each separate subclause. Subjectivity is impossible to avoid here, but it's likely best to keep things simple with this sort of thing rather than complicating them with additional subclauses.

I would offer the following version:

3.2 Exchanging of ranking points between nations
A nation's KPB points are the property of the nation, not the user. A user many transfer the ranking points from one nation to another only if one or more of the following criteria are met:
i) The nation receiving the ranking points offers clear and direct IC continuity between the previous nation and the new nation.
ii) The transfer of ranking points is approved by both the WCC President and Vice President (who may choose to consult with the WCC before reaching a decision).

A nation may not receive another nation's KPB points if:
iii) The receiving nation already has, or has ever had, a KPB rank.
iv) The receiving nation is controlled by a different user.

I've intentionally not specified the different IC circumstances where the transfer is permitted, only keeping it to 'direct IC continuity', and granting final approval to the president and VP. I think that's a better approach than clogging things up with different scenarios. Anyone who's been elected president presumably has both the trust of the community and a certain level of awareness of what the protocols are.

Also, obviously I'm writing here as a player rather than a mod (and have chosen this nation to post with to make that obvious), but can I just say that I'm disappointed at the extent to which some of the discussion has been trying to use an off-site dispute relating to an IRC channel that many people posting in this thread rarely (or never) use to colour approaches to this debate.

I'd like to ask that we focus here on what happens on NS.

That's reasonable as well, though as mentioned above, I would add "distinct from the giving nation" to iii to allow for an NS equivalent of Germany splitting and reunifying. Saintland is currently undergoing such a split, and if it reunified in the future, it would make sense for Saintland to take back West Saintland's rank as Germany did with West Germany. If this were added, I could support this version as well.
Edit: just reread it closer. Who decides if there's a direct IC continuity? In theory under your proposal, a team could inherit the rank if there is an IC continuity but the President does not approve, though I don't know who would decide it in that case. Ideally it would meet both conditions to make it clear the President has to approve. Or just combine them into "direct IC continuity as determined by the WCC president...."

I will write my own proposal incorporating these changes when I get home and am on my laptop if nobody beats me to it, but feel free to do so.

[CoraSpia]

I've been away from NS for several days due to RL commitments, but my tuppence worth...

Broadly in favour of some sort of control over the exchange of KPB points so long as we get it right, but not 100% thrilled with the current proposals on the table since they tend to introduce a new level of difficult to police subjectivity with each separate subclause. Subjectivity is impossible to avoid here, but it's likely best to keep things simple with this sort of thing rather than complicating them with additional subclauses.

I would offer the following version:

3.2 Exchanging of ranking points between nations
A nation's KPB points are the property of the nation, not the user. A user many transfer the ranking points from one nation to another only if one or more of the following criteria are met:
i) The nation receiving the ranking points offers clear and direct IC continuity between the previous nation and the new nation.
ii) The transfer of ranking points is approved by both the WCC President and Vice President (who may choose to consult with the WCC before reaching a decision).

A nation may not receive another nation's KPB points if:
iii) The receiving nation already has, or has ever had, a KPB rank.
iv) The receiving nation is controlled by a different user.

I've intentionally not specified the different IC circumstances where the transfer is permitted, only keeping it to 'direct IC continuity', and granting final approval to the president and VP. I think that's a better approach than clogging things up with different scenarios. Anyone who's been elected president presumably has both the trust of the community and a certain level of awareness of what the protocols are.

Also, obviously I'm writing here as a player rather than a mod (and have chosen this nation to post with to make that obvious), but can I just say that I'm disappointed at the extent to which some of the discussion has been trying to use an off-site dispute relating to an IRC channel that many people posting in this thread rarely (or never) use to colour approaches to this debate.

I'd like to ask that we focus here on what happens on NS.

That's reasonable as well, though as mentioned above, I would add "distinct from the giving nation" to iii to allow for an NS equivalent of Germany splitting and reunifying. Saintland is currently undergoing such a split, and if it reunified in the future, it would make sense for Saintland to take back West Saintland's rank as Germany did with West Germany. If this were added, I could support this version as well.
Edit: just reread it closer. Who decides if there's a direct IC continuity? In theory under your proposal, a team could inherit the rank if there is an IC continuity but the President does not approve, though I don't know who would decide it in that case. Ideally it would meet both conditions to make it clear the President has to approve. Or just combine them into "direct IC continuity as determined by the WCC president...."

I will write my own proposal incorporating these changes when I get home and am on my laptop if nobody beats me to it, but feel free to do so.

As unlikely as it is, with Saintland and FFR joining the GVH, what happens if a GVH unified team is sent?

[The Archregimancy]

In theory under your proposal, a team could inherit the rank if there is an IC continuity but the President does not approve, though I don't know who would decide it in that case.

Ah, an error of editing on my part. My apologies for the confusion.

That should be:

3.2 Exchanging of ranking points between nations
A nation's KPB points are the property of the nation, not the user. A user many transfer the ranking points from one nation to another provided that both of the following criteria are met:
i) The nation receiving the ranking points offers clear and direct IC continuity between the previous nation and the new nation.
ii) The transfer of ranking points is approved by both the WCC President and Vice President (who may choose to consult with the WCC before reaching a decision).

A nation may not receive another nation's KPB points if:
iii) The receiving nation already has, or has ever had, a KPB rank.
iv) The receiving nation is controlled by a different user.

Edit: Gack; meant to post that with the Holy Empire - apologies for the further confusion.