The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[Ilyseum]

What I'm puzzled by is why this issue is coming up now when I had thought it was settled months ago. Did Anglatia do something to piss off #nssport today or something?

DBC. Go check it. Gracias.

So all of this is because Anglatia wanted to change which nation he/she entered into the DBC? Seems very petty, imo.

What I'm puzzled by is why this issue is coming up now when I had thought it was settled months ago. Did Anglatia do something to piss off #nssport today or something?

My God yes. Anglatia has done what no NS Sporter should ever dare do: invoke the wrath of the *gasp* NS Sports Old Guard. We will not stop until we have his head.

I appreciate the confession.

[Taeshan]

What I'm puzzled by is why this issue is coming up now when I had thought it was settled months ago. Did Anglatia do something to piss off #nssport today or something?

My God yes. Anglatia has done what no NS Sporter should ever dare do: invoke the wrath of the *gasp* NS Sports Old Guard. We will not stop until we have his head.

Old Guard...Newb.

[Nephara]

So all of this is because Anglatia wanted to change which nation he/she entered into the DBC?

... How did you get that? You know the community doesn't run on a hivemind, right? It's a rulechange that occured to me, so I posted on the WCDT to sound it out. You disagree, a few people agree. Either way, I don't know what the rule's specific wording would be, and it's certainly not a direct action against Anglatia.

[San Jose Guayabal]

90-something% of nation successions are entirely legitimate, no grey area, and won't be affected in the slightest.

wow this is all one sentence It's not too hard to think of times where excuses that a connection would be established are made and ultimately failed to materialise. Yes, when it happens, it's a big deal. IC doesn't get to be thrown out the window when someone wants to pick and choose what 'a fresh start' means. Successors are successors, new nations are new nations.


Time, patience and diligence are rewarded.


One would think so, yes.


It's not a name change. Nothing links the two nations together apart from maybe one or two ex-pats.

What I'm puzzled by is why this issue is coming up now when I had thought it was settled months ago. Did Anglatia do something to piss off #nssport today or something?

Though I understand your point of being against this, but why to come here and satanize the users of an IRC Channel? I mean, anybody can think that and puropose that by its own, not driven by emotions. Also, what's going on with that sort of "paranoic" attitude, now every proposal has a "dark" and "twisted" intentions to "satisfy the interests" of a group of people? I mean, this attitude is toxic and doesn't contributes to anything, since it's useless to the topic of conversation, or tell me, will attacking a channel help positively? Of course it won't do that.

[Anglatia]

My thoughts on the whole name changing thing are that:

a: not allowing transferring of rank between nations is ridiculous, whether the transfer is for IC reasons or not. Ranking points in the World Cup are insanely hard to earn compared to literally every other competition in NS sports, and they shouldn't just be thrown out because someone is posting from a different account. Honestly, I've spent dozens of hours working on RP posts for the World Cup(just qualifying, not even the real competition), and if you tell me that this should be disregarded because of a different account, I probably would have quit World Cups altogether instead of continuing with this nation.

b: half of you don't realize that there's an IC connection to Armeia in that most Armeian pro athletes are now stateless and many of them have gained citizenship in Anglatia(including the entire American Football team). The World Bowl winning team was literally formed out of the Armeian diaspora. And if any of you want to complain about the diaspora playing for Anglatia, I want to kindly remind you that Bahrain is doing the same thing in the Olympics as Anglatia is doing in NS, except Bahrain's players weren't even stateless before becoming Bahraini.

c: I think certain people want ranking to stay extremely hard to gain, because it means that staying at the top requires less effort.

d: if this is at all about me trying to switch my DBC signup... Well, that's ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can get upset over wanting to enter another nation into a rankless tournament before any matches have been played.

EDIT:

e: if this shit is going to be a problem, I'm just going to skip participating in the DBC this time around. My RP in that competition is never good enough for a respectable finish, anyway.

[Frenline Delpha]

Given a couple of situations we've had where WCC/UICA rank has been transferred over to a supposed 'successor' nation and then, well, no IC connection established, I think we need to formalise a rule for when rank should and should not be transferred. Specifically, unless the nation is actually The Same Nation With A Change Of Name (like, well, my own - the nation was identical, there was just a formal name change) there should need to be very good reasons as to why one nation justifies taking on the old nation's ranking, a very strong connection. As it stands, it feels like the rule - or lack thereof - is ripe for exploitation.

I disagree heavily. First of all, there is indeed an IC connecion between these two nations in question, so you already show how ignorant you are on the matter. There is indeed a reason for Anglatia to be in place of Armeia. Now, as for the actual rule itself, I see no problem with it. However, your ignorance in the matter of Anglatia is seriously worriesome.

[Northern Sunrise Islands]

(snip)

Actually, I did get myself confused on the whole thing. It wasn't really referring to the DBC bit at all, so mea culpa.
And TBF, I don't really mind though I did get confused like three times before we managed to talk this over way back when solving that Evolución B bit.

While we're at it, though, you should hold on switching teams like after the group draw was posted. Bit problematic.

[Nephara]

I'm not sure how 'I think Armeia and Anglatia are similar enough to have qualified for the same rank, as was decided by the WCC' is a valid point in a suggestion that does not seek to reverse that ruling. It was an example of a grey area. Hell, if you think that successions shouldn't require any IC scrutiny, then you should be in favour of that being made clear! There is no definitive ruling either way and I think there should be.

[Farfadillis]

My thoughts on the whole name changing thing are that:

a: not allowing transferring of rank between nations is ridiculous, whether the transfer is for IC reasons or not. Ranking points in the World Cup are insanely hard to earn compared to literally every other competition in NS sports, and they shouldn't just be thrown out because someone is posting from a different account. Honestly, I've spent dozens of hours working on RP posts for the World Cup(just qualifying, not even the real competition), and if you tell me that this should be disregarded because of a different account, I probably would have quit World Cups altogether instead of continuing with this nation.

This destroys realism, however. Not only because this allows for the meteoric rise of completely unknown nations (imagine if tomorrow I decided to found a new WC nation while ranked #3 in the world), but also because your ranking is transferred ICly too. So this completely unknown nation, for reasons impossible to explain, would be top seed in the next WC while having never played a football match before this cycle. Ranking is earned by nation, not by user. It is the same logic that applies to puppets. If you disagree with this, however, I welcome you to lobby for the rule to be that any user can freely switch between nations. Hell, I might even give the nation switching a shot if you succeed.

b: half of you don't realize that there's an IC connection to Armeia in that most Armeian pro athletes are now stateless and many of them have gained citizenship in Anglatia(including the entire American Football team). The World Bowl winning team was literally formed out of the Armeian diaspora. And if any of you want to complain about the diaspora playing for Anglatia, I want to kindly remind you that Bahrain is doing the same thing in the Olympics as Anglatia is doing in NS, except Bahrain's players weren't even stateless before becoming Bahraini.

a) I believe this is not the World Bowl and b) your national football team definitely hasn't got an important number of Armeians. Feel free to correct me on b) though, since I haven't run a thorough check.

c: I think certain people want ranking to stay extremely hard to gain, because it means that staying at the top requires less effort.

Ease up on the ad hominems. I could accuse you of having deliberately gamed the community to keep your ranking, but that's hardly going to help get my point across. Or achieve anything at all.

[Osarius]

If having an established procedure on the topic will avoid this kind of discussion in future, someone please create and propose one.

[Kernansquillec]

Surely it would be best only to allow ranking transfers being nations when it is essentially the same nation but with a slight name change. Once we get into the area of 'but it's the same user behind it', 'but ICly I can justify how the skills got transfered', why not also allow a bonus for returning nations of significant status in the footballing world who haven't been active recently? It might add realism but it's totally unfair. It would also raise the issue of a user with two nations deciding to scrap both and using only one. Would he/she gets both sets of ranking points?

Unless it's slight names changes to a nation there shouldn't be any transfers at all.

[The Sarian]

If ranking points are so insanely hard to get, why change nation in the first place?

[Bears Armed]

why not also allow a bonus for returning nations of significant status in the footballing world who haven't been active recently? It might add realism but it's totally unfair.

I seem to recall suggesting that idea once, a long time ago, and having it loudly shot down...

[Vilita and Turori]

I support name changes from Royal Kingdom of Quebec to Royal Quebec

Or if you spend 2-3 cups RPing a store line - or longer, then it becomes widely accepted/known before the change takes place, that also works (See "Eura")


But what i think the intention here is trying to avoid setting a precedence where someone can just walk in and say "I'm bored with this nation, I want to change to this nation and not lose my points"

And then it happens over and over and over because it doesn't require any discipline or forethought to have it approved.

Thats all. There isn't any old guard or hostility here towards any user, but its a task in and of itself to maintain the rankings, we don't need to also have a separate "name change period" each offseason.

If you put in the effort, or its a slight and obvious tweak, theres no reason to object it. But willy-nilly name changes should not be condoned or encouraged unless the user is willing to start over.


Typically, people who want to change nation in this fashion add it as a puppet for 2-3 cups so it accrues KPB before dropping the former main. Its not like we don't already have a system for handling this.

[CoraSpia]

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

[Anglatia]

My thoughts on the whole name changing thing are that:

a: not allowing transferring of rank between nations is ridiculous, whether the transfer is for IC reasons or not. Ranking points in the World Cup are insanely hard to earn compared to literally every other competition in NS sports, and they shouldn't just be thrown out because someone is posting from a different account. Honestly, I've spent dozens of hours working on RP posts for the World Cup(just qualifying, not even the real competition), and if you tell me that this should be disregarded because of a different account, I probably would have quit World Cups altogether instead of continuing with this nation.

This destroys realism, however. Not only because this allows for the meteoric rise of completely unknown nations (imagine if tomorrow I decided to found a new WC nation while ranked #3 in the world), but also because your ranking is transferred ICly too. So this completely unknown nation, for reasons impossible to explain, would be top seed in the next WC while having never played a football match before this cycle. Ranking is earned by nation, not by user. It is the same logic that applies to puppets. If you disagree with this, however, I welcome you to lobby for the rule to be that any user can freely switch between nations. Hell, I might even give the nation switching a shot if you succeed.

b: half of you don't realize that there's an IC connection to Armeia in that most Armeian pro athletes are now stateless and many of them have gained citizenship in Anglatia(including the entire American Football team). The World Bowl winning team was literally formed out of the Armeian diaspora. And if any of you want to complain about the diaspora playing for Anglatia, I want to kindly remind you that Bahrain is doing the same thing in the Olympics as Anglatia is doing in NS, except Bahrain's players weren't even stateless before becoming Bahraini.

a) I believe this is not the World Bowl and b) your national football team definitely hasn't got an important number of Armeians. Feel free to correct me on b) though, since I haven't run a thorough check.

c: I think certain people want ranking to stay extremely hard to gain, because it means that staying at the top requires less effort.

Ease up on the ad hominems. I could accuse you of having deliberately gamed the community to keep your ranking, but that's hardly going to help get my point across. Or achieve anything at all.

NS sports has never been about realism, I don't think that argument works unless we also start enforcing human only players, single gender teams, modern tech level technology, and real life roster rules and schedules. And ICly, if the rankings are anything like the real FIFA rankings(correct me if I'm wrong about them being based on those), they're completely meaningless. Nobody(I'm talking IRL and presumably IC) cares about rankings, and it's not unrealistic for there to be no logic behind them.

[Anglatia]

I support name changes from Royal Kingdom of Quebec to Royal Quebec

Or if you spend 2-3 cups RPing a store line - or longer, then it becomes widely accepted/known before the change takes place, that also works (See "Eura")


But what i think the intention here is trying to avoid setting a precedence where someone can just walk in and say "I'm bored with this nation, I want to change to this nation and not lose my points"

And then it happens over and over and over because it doesn't require any discipline or forethought to have it approved.

Thats all. There isn't any old guard or hostility here towards any user, but its a task in and of itself to maintain the rankings, we don't need to also have a separate "name change period" each offseason.

If you put in the effort, or its a slight and obvious tweak, theres no reason to object it. But willy-nilly name changes should not be condoned or encouraged unless the user is willing to start over.


Typically, people who want to change nation in this fashion add it as a puppet for 2-3 cups so it accrues KPB before dropping the former main. Its not like we don't already have a system for handling this.

But why should someone's OOC work spent gaining points with a past nation be thrown out if they start with a new one? Because of realism? I already pointed out that NS sports isn't realistic. I'm not talking about nations that are a continuation of another, I'm talking about switching to a new nation. The OOC work that someone puts into the World Cup should matter more than IC realism for rankings. For example, you're saying that if someone were to play in NS sports for ten years and reach the number one spot, they should lose all of that and have to start over(start over in a process that takes literal OOC years) if they want to use a different nation?

[Ficiscia]

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

I support that. I mean, I should be the last one to complain about the KPB having too much influence, given the success I had when I was still in the 100's and then qualified from outside the Top 50, but it's hard to reflect the fact that teams change their skill relatively quickly. I don't know the current formula, and I'm not saying that it should be meaningless, but I can at least very much understand this reasoning. But I'll leave this discussion to those with more knowledge about how it actually works.

[The Howling Horde]

Yeah

[Bears Armed]

For example, you're saying that if someone were to play in NS sports for ten years and reach the number one spot, they should lose all of that and have to start over(start over in a process that takes literal OOC years) if they want to use a different nation?

At least one player who's still active here switched to a different nation for a while specifically because the one that they'd been using was so firmly ensconced in the #1 position and they wanted to give other people a better chance (and have the fun of working their way back up) without dropping out altogether...

[Ceni]

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

That's why we have RP Bonus, thank you very much.

[Farfadillis]

NS sports has never been about realism, I don't think that argument works unless we also start enforcing human only players, single gender teams, modern tech level technology, and real life roster rules and schedules. And ICly, if the rankings are anything like the real FIFA rankings(correct me if I'm wrong about them being based on those), they're completely meaningless. Nobody(I'm talking IRL and presumably IC) cares about rankings, and it's not unrealistic for there to be no logic behind them.

While NS Sports has admittedly never been about realism, there are a few things that are set in stone. One of them, for example, is the fact that the World Cup proper has 32 teams. Another is the fact that new nations are not handed over another, different nation's ranking for no apparent reason. KPB ranking is very often referenced in RPs. Surely you, too, have noticed that.

For example, you're saying that if someone were to play in NS sports for ten years and reach the number one spot, they should lose all of that and have to start over(start over in a process that takes literal OOC years) if they want to use a different nation?

You hit the nail on the head.

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

Your input on that is welcome, but the weight of the different R's is only loosely related to the topic at hand, and would require a lot of infrastructural change. It's probably best if we discuss this after we're done with the nation-switching rule-to-be.

[San Llera]

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

It isn't unrealistic. If anything, the rankings don't matter enough. In two World Cup cycles, I have risen from the spot occupied by St. Kitts and Nevis in the FIFA rankings, to 25th, above Holland. There are countless other cases of this.

[San Jose Guayabal]

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

It isn't unrealistic. If anything, the rankings don't matter enough. In two World Cup cycles, I have risen from the spot occupied by St. Kitts and Nevis in the FIFA rankings, to 25th, above Holland. There are countless other cases of this.

Seconding it, risen from 317th (WC 66) to 35th (WC 68), all what you need is dedication to it.

[Saintland]

What I'd propose is to make the nation ranking have a far smaller impact than it does now, as I'd argue it is unrealistic. In RL, you get teams (such as Belgium) who were shitty before but got a load of young players in.

Your input on that is welcome, but the weight of the different R's is only loosely related to the topic at hand, and would require a lot of infrastructural change. It's probably best if we discuss this after we're done with the nation-switching rule-to-be.

I remain unconvinced that such a proposed rule is anything other than a solution in search of a problem. I should also note that every single person who has spoken up in favor of it so far is an #nssport regular.