The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version II)

[Cassadaigua]

I'm just amazed at a mod's Nelsonian knowledge. Of all people I'd expect a mod to see things from both perspectives, but that doesn't appear to be so. It doesn't matter if you've been a player on NS for 7 years or 7 days, there's no reason for you to have such a one-sided argument. You say there's no evidence? Look at the TG content, scores and what's been going on for the last 3 pages.

Insult to injury is that this World Cup is the final nail in the coffin for some of NS Sport's largest contributors. So congrats to all those involved.

Arch is one of the most fair and neutral people I have ever seen here. He has seen things from both perspectives. It's you who has your mind set on only one perspective. You say that Sarzoclava coasted to qualification but that is untrue- they qualified by one mere point. I have tried to tell you this before but you don't understand how rankings work here. You think that the rank, as in, "Cassadaigua is ranked 9th" is the important thing. It is not. What is important is the KPB points in which I have- that's what goes into the scorinator. Therefore if Sarzonia was going to cheat, he would have had Sarzoclava have a qualifying performance which would have had a high amount of standings points, so that the KPB value could increase greater. The 36 points in which Sarzoclava advanced with was the LOWEST of any group winner. You want evidence? There's your evidence- evidence of no foul play. If you disagree with that, then again, you don't understand the ranking system.

Hosting a World Cup is the most prestigious thing anyone on NS Sports can do, and Sarzonia had done a lot of hard hosting work on other competitions before being voted in with Cafundeu. After all that, to think that Sarzonia would deliberately throw all that away for the sake of bettering a puppet is simply laughable.

As for the TG, everyone who's been around knows there is animosity between Sarzonia and Qazox- so if you read into what he wrote to you he was actually telling you that your complaint was absurd.

I suggest that your next post contains apologies, or else maybe NS Sports isn't for you.

[Qazox]

Hell if anything I think Sarzonia put the bias vis a vis Qazox completely away:

I beat Valladares 8-0 while he hosted; a team that had RPed pretty much everyday up to that point and wasn't that far behind me in terms of ranking. All my wins by 4+ goals were scorinated by Sarzonia.

So Rhodesiah, considering the past amnity between the two of us, as compared towards the aminty between the two of you before this cup... I seriously don't think Sarzonia had it out for anyone nor did they make sure their half-puppet got in to spite anyone.

[Rhodesiah]

Hosting a World Cup is the most prestigious thing anyone on NS Sports can do, and Sarzonia had done a lot of hard hosting work on other competitions before being voted in with Cafundeu. After all that, to think that Sarzonia would deliberately throw all that away for the sake of bettering a puppet is simply laughable.

As for the TG, everyone who's been around knows there is animosity between Sarzonia and Qazox- so if you read into what he wrote to you he was actually telling you that your complaint was absurd.

I suggest that your next post contains apologies, or else maybe NS Sports isn't for you.

For the record, I never voted in the hosts. Largely in part due to the fact I'm not a member of the WCC and therefore can not. But then again, nobody could because they were the ONLY BID IN CONTENTION: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=7100005#p7100005

In fact, out of the 61 member committee, only 18 people voted!

Accept the Bid: 13 votes
Re-open Bids: 3 votes
Officially Abstain: 2 votes

With a 29% voter turnout! Who else in history won elections due to poor voter turnout?

They were never voted in. They won by default. So if you want to tell me a group of my peers elected to have them host, you're lying to everyone here.

I will not apologize, for I'm not the one at fault.

[Qazox]

Delaclava's going too? Another worthy competitior is retiring. Best of luck and I wish you best.

Now I just need every other nation ranked between 1 and 50 to retire... and I'll finally win the World Cup title!!! Muwhaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Vilita]

Hosting a World Cup is the most prestigious thing anyone on NS Sports can do, and Sarzonia had done a lot of hard hosting work on other competitions before being voted in with Cafundeu. After all that, to think that Sarzonia would deliberately throw all that away for the sake of bettering a puppet is simply laughable.

As for the TG, everyone who's been around knows there is animosity between Sarzonia and Qazox- so if you read into what he wrote to you he was actually telling you that your complaint was absurd.

I suggest that your next post contains apologies, or else maybe NS Sports isn't for you.

For the record, I never voted in the hosts. Largely in part due to the fact I'm not a member of the WCC and therefore can not. But then again, nobody could because they were the ONLY BID IN CONTENTION: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=7100005#p7100005

They were never voted in. They won by default. So if you want to tell me a group of my peers elected to have them host, you're lying to everyone here.

I will not apologize, for I'm not the one at fault.

Well ignoring all the other stuff you just said which you will likely be jumped on for, I would like to clarify that, whil e they may have been the only bid, I thought I saw that wcc voters also have the option of voting for none of the bids put forth and waiting for a better bid

[Qazox]

And Rhodesiah.. trust me on this.. Don't continue going down the road you are going down.

I've been there (see Post World Cup 50) and the amount of shit that you will bring down upon yourself if you continue down this path IS NOT WORTH IT. I've just barely begun to recover any credibility, goodwill, and people willing to listen seriously to me and it's been almost 2 years since then.

If you continue do this path, I can only say, be prepared to become very disenchanted with NSSports for the forseeeable future.

[Qazox]

Everyone is quitting when I showed back up :-)

<Points finger at Vilita> IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!

[Rhodesiah]

And Rhodesiah.. trust me on this.. Don't continue going down the road you are going down.

I've been there (see Post World Cup 50) and the amount of shit that you will bring down upon yourself if you continue down this path IS NOT WORTH IT. I've just barely begun to recover any credibility, goodwill, and people willing to listen seriously to me and it's been almost 2 years since then.

If you continue do this path, I can only say, be prepared to become very disenchanted with NSSports for the forseeeable future.

I'm not continuing this argument further, I'm not going to pursue it beyond where it is now. I'm making a point that I hope you're seeing too. I wasn't here prior to WC 56 and have no interest in prior events because that doesn't affect me or my perceptions of people.

[Jeruselem]

So Qaz, what's the chances of that Jeruselem and Qazox WC final we've always wanted?

[Qazox]

So Qaz, what's the chances of that Jeruselem and Qazox WC final we've always wanted?

It'll happen the day after the Cubs win the World Series.. you know that!

[Vilita]

Everyone is quitting when I showed back up :-)

<Points finger at Vilita> IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!

I'm 90% certain that you are right.

[Silver Beach]

Quickly bouncing around.... Anyone know when the Cup of Harmony 49 starts?

[Jeruselem]

Oh well there goes the Pink Cup for us.

[Milchama]

<Points finger at Vilita> IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!

I'm 90% certain that you are right.

Damnit Qazox, you stole my line!

I just read the ensuing pages there is a lot to be said. First off, that something has changed about the World Cup. A different generation has taken over, the oldest generation (TnUI, Bedistan, etc.) left a bit ago and now the generation that took over for them (Star, Kry, Casari, etc.) are on their last legs. While there is some overlap, Arch is a mod, Sarz is as respected as ever (somewhere between very highly and not at all depending on whether you are with or against him in an argument) a lot of us have come and gone. I don't know who the keepers of the flame will be but I'm sure they will exist and the WC will keep being fun. That said it is true that not having the history will make it less interesting.

I saw Star's post about leaving and I had many of the same complaints. I really don't know anything about who is winning right now, never seen a RP, don't know them at all. Granted, I have different views for why that is (size, not spending 6 hours on NS reading RPs, only caring about when I am in the competition, not about after, etc.) and do not think that is a flaw from the game.
I think the WC is as strong as its ever been and will be staying (probably in the same sporadic fashion) for awhile longer.

That said seeing people who were considered "old" by me when I first started in 2005 (which in itself is crazy and sad) is crazy and sad. I played my first ever WC match against Krytenia (lost 4-0, WC 23, look it up) and have had a lot of respect for both Star, Kry, for a long time. (I never really knew Delaclava as well but I also respect him, anybody who hosts a World Cup deserves immense respect).

Also apologies to those who think they were important from those generations who I did not mention, it was a general classification more than something specific.

[Cosumar]

First Star, maybe Kry...now me, actually.

I'd made the decision that this was the right thing to do for a while now (which is actually why I scaled back my commitment a lot) but for my own good and for what I want to accomplish I can't just hang around anymore, I really have to leave. For most of you, I've enjoyed working with you - hosting, roleplaying, discussing. For some, I know I've argued with you in the past (and for a few many, MANY times), but as a whole I respect everyone that I've come across in the past 2 1/2 years.

Best of luck.

Sorry to see you go, Del. For the 1.5 years I've been here, you have always been one of the ones I've looked up to and respected. You, and Starblaydia too, have made a significant contribution to this game in your tenure here. I sincerely hope you eventually decide to return. Good luck in your future endeavors.

In other news, I'm fired up for the World Cup!

[Qazox]

OK...

It maybe lost somewhere in the mishmash of goodbyes, well wishes, complaints, complaint-bashing, counter-complaint-bashing; etc... But when is the Draw again? I believe that it is Friday? Or am I mistaken?

[The Archregimancy]

In my eight and a half years of involvement in NSSports, I think the last five or so pages have made for some of the most depressing reading I can ever remember coming across in our discussion threads.

This has been pathetic. I mean, really, really pathetic. We've reached some new low of pathetic.

We seem to have reached a point where a group's third-ranked team scraping into first place is a sign of a massive hosting conspiracy, where a substantive reply outlining in detail why a suggestion is a bad idea suddenly transmutes into a symbol of 'rude' elitism, and where any suggestion from previously uninvolved third parties that maybe a gentle apology might be in order results in a childish sulk. The sheer level of prickly defensiveness displayed by any number of parties has been extraordinary.

For God's sake get a grip.

This is a just a game.

It will neither define nor end your life if you fail to qualify for the World Cup, or someone disagrees with you in the discussion thread.

I assure all of you that there are far more important things in life than some relatively insignificant internet game that we should all participate in for fun.

Yes, this is the Archregimancy posting with his non-moderation account

[Andossa Se Mitrin Vega]

OK. Where to start…

As has been said, we do not need to underplay the significance of Starblaydia, Delaclava, and possibly Krytenia leaving this game. Star has been the most influential person in the history of this event IC and OOC. Krytenia and Del have made numerous contributions as well and it will leave a huge void to be filled.

I wasn't here prior to WC 56 and have no interest in prior events because that doesn't affect me or my perceptions of people.

For those of you newer nations who do not seem to worry about the history of this event- We would not have a World Cup to participate in if it were not for the efforts put forward by numerous nations of which many are now gone or are leaving. As in RL, you cannot ignore history whether you were present for it or not. Much can be learned from the mistakes and successes of those who have been here before.

Rhodesiah assures me she knows better now and hopes she can regain the community's respect.

That may be a bit hard at this point, but not completely impossible. Accusing hosts of cheating and questioning one of the most fair and impartial persons in this game of modly bias nearly pale in comparison to the blatantly controversial tone used, as far as I can tell, to incite a “riot” in the WCDT.

I am not one to usually call someone out by name, but this is one of those times where it is warranted.

Yet while I am calling one out I might as well make it two

And so sorry for interrupting you, it's just i was lead to believe this was a public forum where anyone could bring up an idea and attempt to contribute. But evidently not. So sorry oh great one, a thousand apologies for trespassing on your private property.

**************************************************************************************
I will not retract it because it is how i feel, if it is out of line so be it, but i want my feelings on the elitism i feel persists here to be known and public

I have no problem with the last statement. You have every right to express your opinion. However, that other comment is completely uncalled for and serves little purpose than to incite yet another negative response.

We seem to have reached a point where a group's third-ranked team scraping into first place is a sign of a massive hosting conspiracy, where a substantive reply outlining in detail why a suggestion is a bad idea suddenly transmutes into a symbol of 'rude' elitism, and where any suggestion from previously uninvolved third parties that maybe a gentle apology might be in order results in a childish sulk. The sheer level of prickly defensiveness displayed by any number of parties has been extraordinary.

Agreed. Scorinator issues aside, I remember the days when we were lucky to see one new nation break into the World Cup proper each cycle regardless of RP level. While results have become a bit too random as of late, I doubt anyone truly wishes to go back to those days.

As for the attitudes surrounding the last few pages, It has been a bit of a childish mess. But it seems we go through this every couple of years as evidenced by Qazox’s earlier post. But this time has been one of the more “itchy” that I can remember aside from Qazox’s meltdown of which we are in danger of getting to again.

I had actually considered asking for a temporary lock of the thread to let things cool off, before deciding against it. But we all need to take a deep breath and discuss - in a respectful and constructive manner - any issues we need to resolve.

It is deeply unfortunate that Sarzoclava qualified; it has cast question marks over hosts who have provided an utterly glitch-free organisation of an enormous quailfying stage.

How so? Nations qualify and others fail to do so. That is the way of things. The third ranked side in a group actually qualifying is never unfortunate.

Quickly bouncing around.... Anyone know when the Cup of Harmony 49 starts?

Probably a couple of weeks out as the host vote for the CoH will open on Wednesday.

[The Kytler Peninsulae]

In answer to ASMV (whom I basically utterly agree with); the problem with Sarzoclava's qualification in this particular instance is that it was just unusual enough (non-RPing third seeds qualifying) to spark off, given the circumstances of Sarzonia co-hosting, the possibility of a flimsy conspiracy which has now sparked this.

I remember those days of teams rarely breaking into the WC proper too. For a while, we actually wanted it (or at the least, we didn't want the CoH winners suddenly being top-16 in the rankings as sometimes happened) - hence the five-point WC qualifying bonus in the KPB rankings. If you wanted to complain about "elitism" then, you'd have had half a point (and, indeed, this later got changed to the three-point bonus we have today). Now? Well, if anything, we have an anti-elitist system - the volatility of results mean that even the top teams can and do have spectacular bad luck, even if they RP well.

And I speak as someone who in theory benefits from this right now - I was outside the top 200 for this qualifying group, I'll be one of the weakest teams at the CoH, I'll be lucky to be inside the top 75 for WC58. You'd think I'd relish this. I don't, because I don't like seeing players' efforts go to waste. When that happens, especially when it dissolves into arguments this brutal and petty, people stop seeing this as fun, and leave. We've lost two major stars of the community this month already, we're likely to lose another before the month is out, and I don't know where the new generation is coming from - other than returning veterans (me, Vilita, C&M), who've we got that could step up and eventually host a World Cup in the long term?

And if the new generation aren't coming through, the veterans are all the more important.

[Sarzonia]

I have trouble disagreeing with any of ASMV's post.

For the record, I don't have a problem with random results from the scorinator. Having a third ranked team within a group not RP or submit a roster and end up winning the group may not have been my first preference. It certainly wouldn't have been had Sarzonia been the nation to qualify thusly, but as Krytenia rightly pointed out, Sarzoclava also qualified from a much lower rank and KPB ranking score with Valanora and Sorthern Northland hosting. And for various reasons, there's no chance Valanora would have any bias toward me or Delaclava.

I can remember the days when it seemingly took forever for a new RPing nation to break through to the World Cup. There were many, many frustrated posts by some of these players leading to assurances that they would eventually make it. I think we're also getting into a bit of a cultural conflict here because I think that generally, Europeans prefer seeing the better team win or qualify whereas Americans generally love underdogs. Yes, this is a generalisation, but it's something I seem to remember hearing back in the day. Perhaps that's changed over the years.

More to the point, however, random shit happens in REAL World Cup football too. Look at the last World Cup. Some highly-ranked teams failed to qualify for the proper and some relatively low-ranked teams qualified. Hell,the U.S. won its group and more highly-ranked England were the runners up. Perhaps results might be more random here than in real life, but a World Cup where everything happens exactly as it's expected to sounds like a really boring proposition to me.

[The Kytler Peninsulae]

Interesting cultural connection - perhaps it's a reflection of how US professional leagues are highly competitive closed shops by design (30-odd pro franchises, usually with salary restrictions, who get first pick of the future superstars when they do badly the previous season) while European soccer leagues are all uncapped, multi-division pyramids where teams rise and fall over years and generations.

My personal preference - and I don't directly speak for anyone else here - is for a moderately unpredictable, highly meritocratic competition, where Margaret has a role to play, historic success has a role to play, but nobody gets too far without RPing. In practice, that would imply that an RPing third seed should be in with a strong shout of qualifying (as Chetkosk did in my group), while a non-RPing third seed shouldn't.

The use of high maxpoints values and a high-value cumulative RP bonus that does little more than add chaos early in qualification, IMHO, violates those conditions. Now that we are recognising that, a new generation of scorination reform can begin. No doubt, we will thrash out compromises along the way, maybe have several Cups in a row scorinated differently.

In terms of new RPers emerging; my first nation (Kaze Progressa) qualified at the third attempt, WC9, but only through a deus ex machina. (The circumstances of that Cup are a good reminder that puppet manipulation and host bias are not new accusations.) Nor is a non-RPing puppet qualifying from nowhere unique to WC56.) My second nation qualified at the third attempt, WC38, but as hosts. I've roughly become accustomed to the idea that a well-RPed new nation can expect to have a decent shot of qualification at their third attempt, and can start expecting to qualify at their fourth. WC56 saw a debutant (Chetkosk) qualify without even reaching the BoF semi-finals, while a second-timer (PIS) actually made the semi-final of the World Cup itself. That is a phenomenal level of unpredictability, and I think it's gone too far, especially as it can come at the expense of RPing veterans as well as non-RPing veterans. I totally agree, though, that it is very easy to overcorrect.

The simplest fix is non-cumulative RP bonuses. That way, the intended high RP effect kicks in right away, but unpredictability remains. If that's what the community desire, that's an easy way to get it.

I'm sorry to hear you're also potentially leaving - as divisive as you've been from time to time, you don't deserve to be leaving in these circumstances.

[The Archregimancy]

Interesting cultural connection - perhaps it's a reflection of how US professional leagues are highly competitive closed shops by design (30-odd pro franchises, usually with salary restrictions, who get first pick of the future superstars when they do badly the previous season) while European soccer leagues are all uncapped, multi-division pyramids where teams rise and fall over years and generations.

My personal preference - and I don't directly speak for anyone else here - is for a moderately unpredictable, highly meritocratic competition, where Margaret has a role to play, historic success has a role to play, but nobody gets too far without RPing. In practice, that would imply that an RPing third seed should be in with a strong shout of qualifying (as Chetkosk did in my group), while a non-RPing third seed shouldn't.

The use of high maxpoints values and a high-value cumulative RP bonus that does little more than add chaos early in qualification, IMHO, violates those conditions. Now that we are recognising that, a new generation of scorination reform can begin. No doubt, we will thrash out compromises along the way, maybe have several Cups in a row scorinated differently.

In terms of new RPers emerging; my first nation (Kaze Progressa) qualified at the third attempt, WC9, but only through a deus ex machina. (The circumstances of that Cup are a good reminder that puppet manipulation and host bias are not new accusations.) Nor is a non-RPing puppet qualifying from nowhere unique to WC56.) My second nation qualified at the third attempt, WC38, but as hosts. I've roughly become accustomed to the idea that a well-RPed new nation can expect to have a decent shot of qualification at their third attempt, and can start expecting to qualify at their fourth. WC56 saw a debutant (Chetkosk) qualify without even reaching the BoF semi-finals, while a second-timer (PIS) actually made the semi-final of the World Cup itself. That is a phenomenal level of unpredictability, and I think it's gone too far, especially as it can come at the expense of RPing veterans as well as non-RPing veterans. I totally agree, though, that it is very easy to overcorrect.

The simplest fix is non-cumulative RP bonuses. That way, the intended high RP effect kicks in right away, but unpredictability remains. If that's what the community desire, that's an easy way to get it.

I'm sorry to hear you're also potentially leaving - as divisive as you've been from time to time, you don't deserve to be leaving in these circumstances.

Oddly enough, watching WC 9 as a lurker was responsible for convincing me not to return to the tournament after I (temporarily, as it turned out) dropped out after WC 7; I had other things on my mind at the time, true, but I also didn't want to face that level of animosity. I was more than a little (pleasantly) surprised to come back in 2005 and discover that the WC was still operating given what it had been threatening to turn into around WC 9.

When I did come back with this nation in WC 24 (I didn't revive the Holy Empire until WC 25), I raised a few eyebrows when I came within a single playoff goal of getting past Nedalia and qualifying for the World Cup as an unranked - though actively RPing - nation at my first attempt.

And perhaps appropriately enough - and this allows us to connect both WC 9 and the current cup - in WC 28 NMS and I would face levels of animosity that would likely surprise even Rhodesiah when Spaam (responsible for part of that WC 9 debacle) was furious about finishing last in his group. Given that Spaam was, at the time, a top 30 nation who had qualified for the last World Cup, we can see that random results are themselves nothing new. Likewise, the extraordinary semifinal appearance of Demot in WC33 - which led to Az-cz coming under heavy criticism for a level of scorinator randomness that looks mild by present standards - would remind us that surprise semifinalists are also not new.

But that these are not wholly unprecedented phenomena doesn't mean that we should automatically accept them as normal, which they have increasingly become.

So I fully agree with K P. We have to constantly strive for a balance; at present we have gone too far towards randomness, but nor do we want to lurch back towards the near closed shop of the high teens and 20s, a step that would serve to alienate many deserving newer nations. Now that we do finally have what appears to be broad consensus that the current default scorinator contains distortions, I would encourage potential hosts to consider alternatives. If necessary, they can be tested in the CoH or BoF first - there's a fine tradition of using these tournaments to test new scorinators - but I would personally recommend that we think about getting an alternative in place for WC59.

And for what it's worth, I would be very sorry to see Krytenia and Sarzonia go, and hope they decide to stay with us; the WCC as a whole could use the benefit of your experience as we negotiate these potential reforms to the scorination process. I would also welcome back both Starblaydia and Delaclava with open arms should they decide to return; again, their experience would be very useful.

[Valanora]

While I agree that level of randomness has far exceeded what should be acceptable levels as of late (though I would say that 56 had acceptable levels of randomess as two of the three "shocks" of the tournament came as a result of RP-driven nations), I would urge that while we look for ways to reform the scorination process, that we do not eliminate the use of NSFS and cumlative RP bonues as a viable option for WC bids. Both of these systems are viable option to be used for scorination, and even together, when given the right checks (as in a numerically low KPB bonus for a Max RP coupled with or on its own a smaller qualifying process with only ten to twelve matchdays). NSFS ability to be learned and utilized by the majority of users IMO is what will allow those who can not create their own scorinators (which I am most definitely in that group) to continue to be able to host, due to its ease of use when compared to xkoranate or spreadsheet scorinators. Removing it as a viable option for bidding eliminates, at least temporarily, the chances for many new hosts to arise, hosts that will be needed to fill in the void of those that depart the game now and in the future.

I would also like us not to forget the friendly reform that was being bandied about before the last three or four pages of the thread took a turn for the ugly side. This is an issue that needs to be addressed just as much as the reform for scorination, losing it in the shuffle of what has transpired would be quite unfortunate. I do believe KPZ's proposal is a good one and I support it whole heartedly.

[Mangolana]

Right now, I think everybody needs to take a step back and breath. Things are happening way to fast around here right now. We have arguments breaking out left and right and people are getting frustrated. Maybe right now we should all calm down and sort this out like people instead of arguing like a bunch of three year olds, with each person thinking that they know all the answers. Maybe its time to take a break. Things have run smoothly for years, now it seems three or four big names leave and everybody thinks that they can just jump on those positions of power and claim that they are the best, not so fast my friend, you have to earn that spot. Right now I am considering leaving because everybody is constantly bickering with each other, and its not fun anymore. If we can all sort this out, I know I will stay, if we wish to continue arguing like babies, I will leave.

[The Kytler Peninsulae]

If necessary, they can be tested in the CoH or BoF first - there's a fine tradition of using these tournaments to test new scorinators

Indeed, I designed the BoF for just that purpose - it was a pre-WC12 "test event". I designed a new scorinator for the WC - it was the first to use the then-new KPB rankings, and it was designed so that KPB points rather than ordinal rank was used as the basis of calculations. At the time, believe it or not, this was revolutionary - in fact, it didn't get used again until the next Cup I co-hosted, WC12 - and I felt that the formula needed a "live test". The BoF was that live test.

I am strongly considering a BoF 45 co-host bid, and the plan is to once again use it as a scorinator testbed.