Open Letter From the Mentor Team, Re: Security Council

[Lykosia]

This is a bad precedent to the continuity and the peacefulness of the NS community as well as the reputation of the mods. It is very very disappointing that this kind of action is taken by a mod, who is supposed to keep the harmony, but his proposal is obviously the opposite. Whatever his real intentions are, again, this is a bad precedent.

I wish to sign.

EDIT: While I'm sure the relevant people have noticed this, to be honest I want to hear from Max himself about this anytime soon

[Marquesan]

My first and most important concern here is the setting of precedent. If Haven can fall, so can -any- other region. As a site supporter and an active member of the NS Roleplay Community, and having served several terms as Sondria's delegate, my concern is for my region, which has since its inception, opted out of R&D. We have maintained our passwords, changed them regularly, heavily screened who enters our region and vetted each candidate with the precise intent of avoiding all this trouble. Our choice as an active region needs to be respected by the moderation and administration team and I am certain that, while the moderator in question is perfectly capable of performing his or her duties as a moderator and is a perfectly capable player, the ability exists to remove a region's password by force and it is the involuntary nature of this action that I find repugnant. If it were my region under this type of threat, I would not stand for such callous barbarism and it is my great hope that Haven is going to take this opportunity to rise with one voice and demand that the forum moderator who has so enflamed the RP community resign.

What exists in this action is an overstep of the moderator's role and a gross miscalculation that he/she could simply "get away with it" without the RP community taking heed. If a region has chosen to opt out of R&D, that is their choice and I would have assumed that the moderators simply respected that wish and considered those regions off-limits to any pretense of the "fun" of R&D. There should be no reason to believe otherwise, and yet, here we are concerned for the sanctity of our regions and our RP groups. Sondria has played as a collective effort for years happily without such threat and so have many other regions. This is an unwanted and patently offensive abuse and I, for one, think that the iniquitous moderator ought to walk away in shame.

[Elke and Elba]

My first and most important concern here is the setting of precedent. If Haven can fall, so can -any- other region. As a site supporter and an active member of the NS Roleplay Community, and having served several terms as Sondria's delegate, my concern is for my region, which has since its inception, opted out of R&D. We have maintained our passwords, changed them regularly, heavily screened who enters our region and vetted each candidate with the precise intent of avoiding all this trouble. Our choice as an active region needs to be respected by the moderation and administration team and I am certain that, while the moderator in question is perfectly capable of performing his or her duties as a moderator and is a perfectly capable player, the ability exists to remove a region's password by force and it is the involuntary nature of this action that I find repugnant. If it were my region under this type of threat, I would not stand for such callous barbarism and it is my great hope that Haven is going to take this opportunity to rise with one voice and demand that the forum moderator who has so enflamed the RP community resign.

What exists in this action is an overstep of the moderator's role and a gross miscalculation that he/she could simply "get away with it" without the RP community taking heed. If a region has chosen to opt out of R&D, that is their choice and I would have assumed that the moderators simply respected that wish and considered those regions off-limits to any pretense of the "fun" of R&D. There should be no reason to believe otherwise, and yet, here we are concerned for the sanctity of our regions and our RP groups. Sondria has played as a collective effort for years happily without such threat and so have many other regions. This is an unwanted and patently offensive abuse and I, for one, think that the iniquitous moderator ought to walk away in shame.

It's just one moderator, in any case.

Though I say it's a very very bad move for Mall - being one of the only raider mods and doling this kind of trouble is just asking for raiders to be excluded from elevation-to-moderator considerations.

[The Batorys]

My first and most important concern here is the setting of precedent. If Haven can fall, so can -any- other region. As a site supporter and an active member of the NS Roleplay Community, and having served several terms as Sondria's delegate, my concern is for my region, which has since its inception, opted out of R&D. We have maintained our passwords, changed them regularly, heavily screened who enters our region and vetted each candidate with the precise intent of avoiding all this trouble. Our choice as an active region needs to be respected by the moderation and administration team and I am certain that, while the moderator in question is perfectly capable of performing his or her duties as a moderator and is a perfectly capable player, the ability exists to remove a region's password by force and it is the involuntary nature of this action that I find repugnant. If it were my region under this type of threat, I would not stand for such callous barbarism and it is my great hope that Haven is going to take this opportunity to rise with one voice and demand that the forum moderator who has so enflamed the RP community resign.

What exists in this action is an overstep of the moderator's role and a gross miscalculation that he/she could simply "get away with it" without the RP community taking heed. If a region has chosen to opt out of R&D, that is their choice and I would have assumed that the moderators simply respected that wish and considered those regions off-limits to any pretense of the "fun" of R&D. There should be no reason to believe otherwise, and yet, here we are concerned for the sanctity of our regions and our RP groups. Sondria has played as a collective effort for years happily without such threat and so have many other regions. This is an unwanted and patently offensive abuse and I, for one, think that the iniquitous moderator ought to walk away in shame.

It's just one moderator, in any case.

Though I say it's a very very bad move for Mall - being one of the only raider mods and doling this kind of trouble is just asking for raiders to be excluded from elevation-to-moderator considerations.

Yep. He's made a great case for not having raiders be mods.

[Kylarnatia]

To be more concise/blunt: is there any chance at all that we could get a concrete promise of....something? Or shall we simply wander off after the rage dissipates?

There is one thing I will - personally, outside anyone else - promise to you and the rest of the community: I will not let this rest until a fair outcome is found for everyone on NationStates, and the communities that all form such an integral part of it. I won't lie, it's a huge undertaking, but it can be done. That's why we've got to keep the train rolling and help it reach it's final destination - because if it's forgotten, it will be forgotten.

Even if I have to be the final passenger, I will see this train to the very end.

[United Kingdom of Poland]

I'm in, as my sig says
I may not be a mod or delegate, but I'll be damned if i'm going to let the raiders push me and the rest of the rp community around like a bunch of play things.

[The BranRiech]

Kylarnatia, I may not be a Mentor, and have no aspirations of being one, but I'll support the cause of this to the very end as well. I want to see the RP community peacefully excluded from the R/D game as much as possible.

[Delmonte]

To be more concise/blunt: is there any chance at all that we could get a concrete promise of....something? Or shall we simply wander off after the rage dissipates?

There is one thing I will - personally, outside anyone else - promise to you and the rest of the community: I will not let this rest until a fair outcome is found for everyone on NationStates, and the communities that all form such an integral part of it. I won't lie, it's a huge undertaking, but it can be done. That's why we've got to keep the train rolling and help it reach it's final destination - because if it's forgotten, it will be forgotten.

Even if I have to be the final passenger, I will see this train to the very end.

This cabin's cozy, Kylarnatia. You won't be alone

[New Babylonia]

To be more concise/blunt: is there any chance at all that we could get a concrete promise of....something? Or shall we simply wander off after the rage dissipates?

There is one thing I will - personally, outside anyone else - promise to you and the rest of the community: I will not let this rest until a fair outcome is found for everyone on NationStates, and the communities that all form such an integral part of it. I won't lie, it's a huge undertaking, but it can be done. That's why we've got to keep the train rolling and help it reach it's final destination - because if it's forgotten, it will be forgotten.

Even if I have to be the final passenger, I will see this train to the very end.

Even if we all end up Hung, tied, and quartered, we will stay with it to the end.

[Yasuragi]

To be more concise/blunt: is there any chance at all that we could get a concrete promise of....something? Or shall we simply wander off after the rage dissipates?

There is one thing I will - personally, outside anyone else - promise to you and the rest of the community: I will not let this rest until a fair outcome is found for everyone on NationStates, and the communities that all form such an integral part of it. I won't lie, it's a huge undertaking, but it can be done. That's why we've got to keep the train rolling and help it reach it's final destination - because if it's forgotten, it will be forgotten.

Even if I have to be the final passenger, I will see this train to the very end.

Thank you, and I appreciate (and support) your sentiments.

[Marquesan]

There is one thing I will - personally, outside anyone else - promise to you and the rest of the community: I will not let this rest until a fair outcome is found for everyone on NationStates, and the communities that all form such an integral part of it. I won't lie, it's a huge undertaking, but it can be done. That's why we've got to keep the train rolling and help it reach it's final destination - because if it's forgotten, it will be forgotten.

Even if I have to be the final passenger, I will see this train to the very end.

Even if we all end up Hung, tied, and quartered, we will stay with it to the end.

Some of us would only need to be tied and quartered....

[United Kingdom of Poland]

To be more concise/blunt: is there any chance at all that we could get a concrete promise of....something? Or shall we simply wander off after the rage dissipates?

There is one thing I will - personally, outside anyone else - promise to you and the rest of the community: I will not let this rest until a fair outcome is found for everyone on NationStates, and the communities that all form such an integral part of it. I won't lie, it's a huge undertaking, but it can be done. That's why we've got to keep the train rolling and help it reach it's final destination - because if it's forgotten, it will be forgotten.

Even if I have to be the final passenger, I will see this train to the very end.

we got your back

[Unicario]

Even if we all end up Hung, tied, and quartered, we will stay with it to the end.

Some of us would only need to be tied and quartered....

[Sternberg]

To the RP Mentors and members of the RP community, greetings.

As a show of support for efforts against whatever fallout has resulted from the drafted "Liberate Haven", I would like to outline in as much depth as possible, why the proposed resolution is a major concern if it is able to both reach quorum and be voted enough to become SC statute.

I do not claim to know anything about Mallora personally, Haven's history or of the raid/coup-de'tat of 2013. I am not going to be the role of Cato who loudly proclaims in the Security Council forum "Mallora abdicarent debet". But I do agree that something needs to be done in order to prevent this from spiraling out of control.

As I had tried to note within my own post on the proposed act (page 4, for the curious), what horrifies me the most about it is:

1) The available evidence. I know the writer has had difficulty locating some of the sources he needs to support his proposal, but even then, there seemed to be very little irrefutable evidence that supports the accusation he made regarding TSP.

If the draft had contained this evidence from the beginning, point by point, I might have been willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. As it stands, however, as someone who has no idea behind what has occurred to prompt this 'liberation', a lack of solid proof is a severe detriment for both the writer and for those who are trying to figure out whether to support or oppose this. This is particularly jarring considering the points that have been raised against the crux of the proposal.

2) If it passes, the legally-binding precedent that would be set could be too-easily mishandled.

This is the biggest concern that I have. Suppose that a major region is raided while the Founder and Delegate(s) are away, in spite of the fact that password protection is in place. If the deported natives protest against this move, the attackers would be able to point to this legislation and say that by legally-binding, Security Council-endorsed precedent, this can be done and there would be little if naught to prevent it.

Then where will it stop? Before long, there will be queues of angry, dethroned natives baying for the attackers' metaphorical heads on pikes and the moderation team will be swamped with complaints. That would be a moderation team's nightmare.

3) On a tertiary note, compounding the matter is there is an implied bias behind the intent of the proposal. Unintended or not, this has caused severe concern among many elements of the community who would be affected by this resolution. It has also made trying to judge the draft on an subjective-only basis difficult since the resolution, either banally or by implication, would be clearly targeting a section of the community on shaky grounds.

Thus, I will wait to see what develops from this madness and, if or when this proposal goes to vote, I will vote against it on the outlined grounds.

I do not agree that we should be listening to more fundamentalist calls that Mall should be dethroned from moderate-ship and cast out (or worse), but I do agree that the shifting paradigms that have prompted both the resolution's draft and the outrage against it should be more thoroughly examined and resolved to the benefit of everyone. If enacted, "Liberate Haven"'s precedent can all-too easily destroy whatever calm has been keeping the separate communities in peace - and for the community as a whole's sake, said destruction should NOT happen.

- The Royal Imperium of Sternberg

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

You have my support. Let's break down the establishment! Peacefully, with our words! Let's talk down the establishment, that sounds better.

[Lexicor]

I will admit wholeheartedly that I am a newcomer to the festering snake pit of Nation-States Forums, and I will also admit with a clear conscience that Mall's attempt to "liberate" a historic and peaceful role-playing region is laughable at best and game damaging at worst. This is a diverse game. Regions have communists and libertarians that mingle as friends on RMBs. Regions attract nations of all shapes, ideologies and sizes. That is the nature of the game. The actions of individual nations in my opinion do not reflect and should never be used as precedent for any Security Council action. Haven as per evidence that Mall presented was nor complicit nor condoned the actions that took place with Milograd and TPA. It was quite clear to me that Mall' had a clear vested interest in his action for liberation; just the latest chapter in the eternal struggle between Raiding regions and finding new targets to raid. It is a pretty big fish to take one of the oldest and most cherished regions in the game. A prize that Raiders like Mall' feel important enough to try and manipulate a function of the Security Council to achieve. The World Assembly has already made it amply clear that the Liberation of Haven even by some miraculous passing through the Security Council would not be allowed to stand.

All of that being said, the calls for Mall to resign are ludicrous. At no point despite countless accusations did Mall ever break a rule or abuse his moderator powers to further his attempted liberation. All liberation' were and all they ever will be are tools to remove regional passwords. They can be used by Defenders to reclaim regions lost to raids or by Raiders to attempt to seize a prize that is protected by that golden button with a master-lock icon. Mall' though clearly with a vested interest and a not subtly hidden one at that has never broken proposal rules. I think everyone knows this. Watching this all unfold it feels like an angry mob, justified or not, calling for a lynching. On that principle alone I oppose the signature campaign.

RP and R/D are equal. But goodness sakes, role-players do not stoop to their level. Do not start incendiary campaigns. Do not call for a lynching.

Thanks for reading if you got this far.

Regards,

A Miffed NS Player

[The Candy Lane]

Just a reminder that, while we're all riled up over this, let's focus on the core issue, and not the mods.

The mods and admins handling of this situation is the core issue. Not only has a player, who also happens to be a mod, blatantly trolled an important segment of the NS community, but the mods have, by their lack of action, applauded the trolling. The way the mods have worked to defend one of their own, even when it's such an obvious instance of trolling is sickening. The idea that mods shouldn't be held to a higher standard is ridiculous at best. If this doesn't constitute an abuse of authority or trolling by a mod what would? Would he have to start banning players? His job is to moderate and maintain the peace. I hope the mod team realizes that he has failed in that regard.

[Delmonte]

I will admit wholeheartedly that I am a newcomer to the festering snake pit of Nation-States Forums, and I will also admit with a clear conscience that Mall's attempt to "liberate" a historic and peaceful role-playing region is laughable at best and game damaging at worst. This is a diverse game. Regions have communists and libertarians that mingle as friends on RMBs. Regions attract nations of all shapes, ideologies and sizes. That is the nature of the game. The actions of individual nations in my opinion do not reflect and should never be used as precedent for any Security Council action. Haven as per evidence that Mall presented was nor complicit nor condoned the actions that took place with Milograd and TPA. It was quite clear to me that Mall' had a clear vested interest in his action for liberation; just the latest chapter in the eternal struggle between Raiding regions and finding new targets to raid. It is a pretty big fish to take one of the oldest and most cherished regions in the game. A prize that Raiders like Mall' feel important enough to try and manipulate a function of the Security Council to achieve. The World Assembly has already made it amply clear that the Liberation of Haven even by some miraculous passing through the Security Council would not be allowed to stand.

All of that being said, the calls for Mall to resign are ludicrous. At no point despite countless accusations did Mall ever break a rule or abuse his moderator powers to further his attempted liberation. All liberation' were and all they ever will be are tools to remove regional passwords. They can be used by Defenders to reclaim regions lost to raids or by Raiders to attempt to seize a prize that is protected by that golden button with a master-lock icon. Mall' though clearly with a vested interest and a not subtly hidden one at that has never broken proposal rules. I think everyone knows this. Watching this all unfold it feels like an angry mob, justified or not, calling for a lynching. On that principle alone I oppose the signature campaign.

RP and R/D are equal. But goodness sakes, role-players do not stoop to their level. Do not start incendiary campaigns. Do not call for a lynching.

Thanks for reading if you got this far.

Regards,

A Miffed NS Player

It's not about him breaking the rules. It's about him starting something incendiary (which is what he did) as opposed to cooling things off (which is what Mods should do). Moderation is nice, but sometimes the extreme views are correct.

[Thoricia]

Alright I'm in too, we'll need to organize a defense un-fucking-fortunatley because , hey why not cause other players some fucking grief because you're dissatisfied with your minimum wage fast food job so you have to spread your pathetic misery onto other players who's only desire is to be left alone.

Fucking bastards

[Gristol-Serkonos]

Alright I'm in too, we'll need to organize a defense un-fucking-fortunatley because , hey why not cause other players some fucking grief because you're dissatisfied with your minimum wage fast food job so you have to spread your pathetic misery onto other players who's only desire is to be left alone.

Fucking bastards

Huh?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

All of that being said, the calls for Mall to resign are ludicrous. At no point despite countless accusations did Mall ever break a rule or abuse his moderator powers to further his attempted liberation. All liberation' were and all they ever will be are tools to remove regional passwords. They can be used by Defenders to reclaim regions lost to raids or by Raiders to attempt to seize a prize that is protected by that golden button with a master-lock icon. Mall' though clearly with a vested interest and a not subtly hidden one at that has never broken proposal rules. I think everyone knows this.

You misunderstand the problem, I think.
The issue here is not that Mall's proposal was inherently an act of trolling/flaming/whatever. The issue was that given the flaming/trolling laden history of this particular issue, Mallorea should, by virtue of being a mod, should (in theory, anyways) have had some awareness that bringing up the subject again was not going to serve a "moderating purpose" on that forum. It was going to make people agitated and angry, likely to no purposeful effect. It would dredge up old conflicts that most people would rather just bury. It would not serve peace and good feeling on that forum.

But nonetheless, Mallorea brought it up again anyway, laden with some pretty insulting and condescending rhetoric, to make absolutely sure to exploit the bad feelings about the issue that he KNEW were there, in the process directly insulting a pretty damn big community of people here on NS. We're pissed off about that, and we have every right to be. And now, he can do this provocative shit behind the nice, safe, red-text of Mod-dom, knowing that they'll all close ranks behind him and he'll never get called on it.
Which is bullshit. He absolutely should step down. What he did was openly biased and completely against the spirit of what mods on this forum are supposed to do.

[Yasuragi]

An update from another thread, quoted below for convenience.

I'm going to reopen this thread again, with a couple of thoughts:

1. Mallorea and Riva is almost certainly not going to be asked to step down, nor is he likely to choose that outcome himself. The point has been made. Move on.
2. It should be blatantly obvious at this point that there is a great deal of resistance to the passage of the proposal. It's not a resolution. It hasn't even been submitted. Given that, all this heat over something that most likely will never happen is getting more than a bit annoying.

It's getting late in the evening for most of the mods, and the USA crew has a holiday on July 4th, so don't expect instant moderator response on any reports. Better yet, don't make any posts that require Moderation reports, and we'll all have a pleasant evening.

Thread unlocked.

It's about the reaction I expected. Closed ranks, chilly-down warning, etc, etc.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Yes. Please keep showing your support and / or voice your concerns. They are not going unnoticed!

Although we cannot make any guarantees on what the outcome will be, I can promise you that this will not end until a suitable outcome for all is reached: for both Gameplay and Roleplay.

We're important too, folks, and lets keep using this amazing forum to show them why!

II Roleplay Mentors, officially the William Wallace of RPers all over Nationstates.

Oh, so I don't matter?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

An update from another thread, quoted below for convenience.

I'm going to reopen this thread again, with a couple of thoughts:

1. Mallorea and Riva is almost certainly not going to be asked to step down, nor is he likely to choose that outcome himself. The point has been made. Move on.
2. It should be blatantly obvious at this point that there is a great deal of resistance to the passage of the proposal. It's not a resolution. It hasn't even been submitted. Given that, all this heat over something that most likely will never happen is getting more than a bit annoying.

It's getting late in the evening for most of the mods, and the USA crew has a holiday on July 4th, so don't expect instant moderator response on any reports. Better yet, don't make any posts that require Moderation reports, and we'll all have a pleasant evening.

Thread unlocked.

It's about the reaction I expected. Closed ranks, chilly-down warning, etc, etc.

Oh no.
The mods have been slightly annoyed at our response to them insulting us, made clear they don't care about our arguments, and then told us to move on from a subject they'd rather not talk about anymore because it reflects poorly on them!
I'M SO ASHAMED OF US YOU GUYS
THE TWIST ENDING IS THAT WE WERE THE REAL ASSHOLES
*SOB*

[Lyras]

An update from another thread, quoted below for convenience.



It's about the reaction I expected. Closed ranks, chilly-down warning, etc, etc.

Oh no.
The mods have been slightly annoyed at our response to them insulting us, made clear they don't care about our arguments, and then told us to move on from a subject they'd rather not talk about anymore because it reflects poorly on them!
I'M SO ASHAMED OF US YOU GUYS
THE TWIST ENDING IS THAT WE WERE THE REAL ASSHOLES
*SOB*

Let's not get out of hand, eh? Constructive criticism. Something that the whole community can use to benefit everyone, etc. Let's go down that route.