Council of Geneva [IC, Semi-open]

[The Papal City]

Council convened
The Sovereign and Apostolic City of Geneva of the Holy Cross
Under the liege of His Holiness Pope John Paul III

Sign-up thread

Daeron, the man who under the name of John Paul III had lead the Thrinian Catholic Church for fourteen years, stood at a large window overlooking the Places de Papes from the magnificent Archbasilica of St. Catherine which he had built as a colossal monument over ... Over what? The Glory of God? Daeron was not quite sure that that was sufficient reason. But the steady trickle of clergyman marching across the place towards the gates of the Archbasilica must certainly was. Them God had wanted, or rather the Council they represented. That the Pope did not doubt.

While his old wrinkly hands would ever so often stray towards his chest feeling that the old heart still ticked the Pope took comfort in the vista from the Archbasilica. Mostly anyway. A slight petulant grimace briefly supplanted the grandfatherly demeanor of the Pope as a man in a cardinal's robe walked towards the entrance to the Archbasilica. "Celdrahil." The pope, sounding like a disappointed parent, protested mildly. "I trust your brother cardinals coming from far away lands does not neglect celebrating mass in all those churches I have spend an obscene amount of money to build for them? I may be an old man but I wont drop dead if the Council is delayed for a few hours. Make sure they know this." The Pope adamantly insisted.

Celdrahil, Patriarch of Yôzâyan and Dean of the College of Cardinals nodded subserviently hiding a smile from his mentor while waving away those assistants he had been talking to. The Pope's insistence that his cardinals celebrated mass in the churches assigned to them was quite endearing but extremely impractical and not to the liking of all of the, very busy, cardinals. "I will make sure to remind any who may have forgotten." Celdrahil assured. The Pope nodded ponderously at this. Then, after a while. "Good. That is good. Now are we about to be ready for my infallible proclamation Celdrahil?" The Pope spoke. Celdrahil, serious again, nodded. "We are Holy Father." He said, receiving yet a slow ponderous nod from the Supreme Pontiff. "Thank God." The Pope then said with some passion folding the old wrinkly hand to do just that through solemn prayer. Celdrahil respectfully took his leave.

---

A few hours later the colossal Archbasilica, a church built incorporating architectural styles from all of Christendom, was filling up with delegates from the Thrinian Catholic Church, and the odd non-Thrinian, from all over the world. The Pope himself was not yet present and Celdrahil was leading the council until his arrival. First he would however inform those who did not already know of it what delayed their Pope. "Brothers and sisters." The Dean addressed the almost exclusively male assembly. "Today, April 3rd in the fourteenth year of the Pontificate of John Paul III the Ecumenical Council of Geneva has convened to discuss matters of doctrine of the utmost import to Our Holy Mother Church. But before we commence His Holiness has instructed me to inform you of a decision he has made." Celdrahil paused for a moment for the dramatic effect.

"At this moment our Holy Father will deliver his first, and quite possibly last, infallible ex cathedra proclamation, declaring that any sentient creature on this Earth is a creature possessing a soul. His Holiness can no longer in good conscious tolerate the anthropocentric intolerance that is a legacy from the Roman Catholic Church. Any creature able to love and praise Our Lord and Savior must necessarily be considered a child of God in the same way as a human." Celdrahil explained hoping that this to him and his master cardinal issue would not be opposed.

Having finished that statement the Cardinal lit up a bit. "Brothers and sister's I welcome you to Geneva. May God grace us all with wisdom to act his Will in all things. Let us pray the Lord's Prayer." He said before leading the Council in prayer.

"Pater noster, qui es in caelis:
sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;
adveniat Regnum Tuum;
fiat voluntas Tua,
sicut in caelo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;
et ne nos inducas in tentationem;
sed libera nos a Malo."

Finishing the prayer Celdrahil looked around at his brother's and sister. "Let us begin." He stated.

[Hessenheim]

Hessenheimic Delegation
Council of Geneva

Surprised.

Cardinal Fremont Auttenburg was stunned that His Holiness had the audacity to issue a proclamation that would certainly yield objections from every corner of the room. If he understood correctly, animals were now to be considered Children of God. The issue itself did not rattle him, in Hessenheim the fate of animals and other sentient beings was a common but controversial issue. Especially after a group of Radical Christians in Hessenheim had proclaimed that everything living had a place in Heaven. Cardinal Auttenburg however avoided such issues, he did not believe responding to such nonsense would make the situation better. He was a man who avoided conflict where it was not necessary, this is true as in his days as Archbishop of Hessenehim he opposed the extremely liberal view the Principality had begun to adopt.

Yet, in all of this. Fremont Pieter Auttenburg was a simple man from a largely Germanic nation. Yes, he loved Sauerkraut with an extreme passion. He dislikes the Hessenheimic Enquirer due to the excessive mudslinging news it advertises. Nevertheless, he was a man who continually strives to look his best always. He fidgeted with his pen as he looked over the topics the Council would be discussing over the course of the meetings. A thought then displaced everything that had been surfing through his head previously, Why would God place animals on this earth if they were destined for eternal damnation?. This thought shook him to the core. It was only then that the Cardinal stood and announced his support in favor of the proclamation made by the aging Pope.

[Atherille]

The three delegates from Jurenga had arrived in Geneva earlier in the week, anticipating the convening of the council. Upon their arrival, Cardinals Stanwick and Rhodes said Mass at their respective churches, although quietly cringing at the great expense paid to construct them within the last few years. Behind closed doors, they would admit to each other that the presentation of the churches ran contrary to what they thought was one of the founding tenets of the Thrinian Church, namely a reaction against the gross excesses of the Roman Church. Nonetheless, the three were in attendance at the Archbasilica of St. Catherine for the opening of the Council.

Henry Cardinal Stanwick's gaze swept over the enormous interior of the archbasilica as his eyes adjusted to the dimness. This was his first visit to Geneva since its becoming the Holy See of the Thrinian Church, and he was impressed at the mass undertaking of construction done just in the last three years. Stanwick had been at the first Thrinian council at Jerusalem, three years before, and was looking forward to what this council would bring to the Church.

Albert Cardinal Rhodes wearily entered the archbasilica with Cardinal Stanwick. He was tired after the long trip and busy week in Geneva. While Stanwick viewed the basilica, Rhodes sat down near Cardinal Auttenburg.

"Good morning, my friend," greeted the elderly Cardinal. "I am Albert Rhodes. I'm the Patriarch of the Jurengan Catholic Church. It is a pleasure to meet you."

Robert Cavendish, Bishop of Keene, followed the two older Cardinals into the archbasilica. He was impressed by the massive building, which dwarfed his own cathedral in Keene, Westerton. Following Cardinal Stanwick on his tour of the cathedral, Cavendish reflected on the reason why the three Jurengan clergymen were in Geneva and what they hoped to accomplish. The Jurengan Church was broken, and the Synod of Bishops were hoping that the issues discussed at this Council would go a long way to healing it. Cavendish had the same hopes as he watched his own diocese split between Thrinian and Roman Catholics.

[New Acardia]

Cardinal Jordon and his delegation arive . Cardinal Jordon goes and greets his fellow church leaders from other countries .

[The Papal City]

The Apostolic Constitution declaring that all creatures with senses where the Children of God was signed by the Pope in the throne room at the Palace of Nations, a building that in pomp and grandeur could almost match the adjacent Archbasilica of St. Catherine. Dressed in the full vestments of the Bishop of Geneva his thoughts briefly drifted towards what his predecessor would have had to say of the magnificence of Geneva. Probably little good.

The idea of a poor church was however not one John Paul III shared. His times had not been for displaying what could be considered weakness. Just the other day he had received a letter from a pretender to the Roman papacy declaring the Thrinian Catholic Church heretical. Not a rarity. Such enemies of the young religion where not like to bow to its moral superiority, so instead they should tremble before the wealth and power of the Church and be ever mindful of how that power could be turned against them. While such power politics where not something that the Pope liked, and no doubt not something his predecessor would have approved of, it was necessary in a world where the Church was under constant threat.

"Your Holiness?" A voice called out, interrupting the musings of the pontiff. "Hum? Yes?" John Paul III replied as he was approached by a franciscan monk. "It is done. Your Holiness are expected in the Archbasilica." The monk spoke. John Paul nodded ponderously. "Yes. Now I can attend, safe in the knowledge that discrimination against elves, ponies, talking animals and nekomini are a thing of the past in this Church even if in no other. If ever there was doubt about the justification for the Thrinian Catholic Church's existence such doubts has now been extinguished, even if the council fails." The pope spoke as he began walking towards the Archbasilica escorted by the monk who had been instructed not to leave the increasingly frail Pope alone.

As they slowly walked through the Palace of Nations towards the Pope's private garden separating the Palace from the Archbasilica the monk, curious about the implication of the Apostolic Constitution, asked; "If Your Holiness will forgive my audacity, what about demons, witches, ghosts and werewolves? How can such creatures that are described in scripture or confirmed through tradition to be wicked servants of Satan be the Children of God on equal footing with humans?" The Pope, once again, nodded ponderously. "It is a tricky question." He admitted after a pause. "A criteria for what creatures can and cannot be considered the Children of God will have to be made either by the Council or the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Until then, as a general rule, I think we can just say that if it bursts into flames when you try to bless it, it is not a Child of God, how about that?"

A long while later the Pope entered the Archbasilica through his private entrance from the Palace of Nations. He exchanged a quick glance with Celdrahil and was pleasantly surprised that there had been no objections. It boded well for the Council. "Brothers and Sisters." The Pope spoke, his frail voice magnified by speakers placed in the nave that all could hear him. "You have all been informed of what I have just done, and let me assure you that there is no doubt in neither my mind, but more important in my heart, that it is just and good. Yet should any of you wish to debate the merit of the Apostolic Constitution or the form of implementation I will hear your thoughts here at this council." He paused for a moment before moving on.

"But first things first. Some years ago, not so few anymore, a group of 34 clergymen in Thrinia was excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church for defiance against Church leadership. That lead to the foundation of what was initially a small fringe movement and is now amongst the largest Churches in the world. But despite its prosperity and growth the Thrinian Catholic Church is more of a collection of different beliefs and doctrines and lacks any coherent and unifying doctrine. To be very blunt we are a church without a religion. It is to end this intolerable theological limbo that I have called you here to the seat of our Church. I would ask each and everyone of you to think careful about what defines your faith, what you wish for the church to espouse. I ask you for tolerance, for compromise and for patience with one another." The Pope spoke, his voice increasing in volume and strength.

"While you contemplate this in a more general manner I would however start with a matter very close to my own heart. The Eastern Catholic Churches. As you know I renamed the Congregation handling their affairs from the Congregation for the Oriental Churches to the Congregation for the Independent Churches. When I did so it was because I found the idea that only Oriental churches could be in communion with Geneva to be fallible. I would wish to present to this Council a proposal to establish a criteria for becoming an independent church under Geneva which would allow for churches of many different rites, not just Oriental ones, to be in communion with Geneva. Before Cardinal Prefect Catulus will go into any more details I would wish to hear the opinion of the Council on the general idea. Thank you."

[Thrinia]

Cardinal Della Rovere than stood up, as the by Thrinian delegation clapped.
After that Cardinal Della Rovere and Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa. walked over to greet Cardinal Casimir Jordon.
"Greetings brother, good to see you in such fine health!"Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa says.
"Indeed!" Says Cardinal Della Rovere.
OOC:Yellow Zone 20-A is a puppet of mine.

[New Acardia]

Cardinal Della Rovere than stood up, as the by Thrinian delegation clapped.
After that Cardinal Della Rovere and Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa. walked over to greet Cardinal Casimir Jordon.
"Greetings brother, good to see you in such fine health!"Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa says.
"Indeed!" Says Cardinal Della Rovere.
OOC:Yellow Zone 20-A is a puppet of mine.

Cardinal Jordon gave Auxilary Bishop Chiesa a hug.
" Long time no see .How are you Jerry ? " says Cardinal Jordon

[Atherille]

As Pope John Paul III entered the archbasilica through his private entrance, Cardinal Stanwick and Bishop Cavendish ended their tour of the basilica to take their places alongside Patriarch Rhodes. The Council was convening and none of the three wanted to miss any of the discussion.

As the elderly pope announced his intention to open the council with the criterion for the Independent Churches, the ears of the three Jurengan delegates perked up. This was the issue most dear to them and the topic of most interest to the Jurengan Catholic Church. The criteria set forth by this Council regarding Independent Churches would dictate whether the Jurengan Church would remain in communion with Geneva or return to communion with Roma. It was not only the Thrinian Bishops of Jurenga watching this topic with anticipation, but also the Roman Bishops.

Stanwick glanced at Patriarch Rhodes beside him. The older Cardinal had not been well as of late and he feared that the Council would place an additional burden on his already fragile health. Rhodes had been adamant about attending, however, and as the Patriarch of the Jurengan Church, could not be swayed otherwise. Although slightly pale, Rhodes did not appear to be in any great discomfort at the moment.

Stanwick stood and waited to catch Cardinal Catulus' attention.

"Brothers, the Jurengan Church stands firmly with the decision to formulate criterion for the establishment and organization of Independent Churches. Let nothing stand in the way of creating a methodology for their creation."

[Thrinia]

Cardinal Della Rovere than stood up, as the by Thrinian delegation clapped.
After that Cardinal Della Rovere and Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa. walked over to greet Cardinal Casimir Jordon.
"Greetings brother, good to see you in such fine health!"Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa says.
"Indeed!" Says Cardinal Della Rovere.
OOC:Yellow Zone 20-A is a puppet of mine.

Cardinal Jordon gave Auxilary Bishop Chiesa a hug.
" Long time no see .How are you Jerry ? " says Cardinal Jordon

"Fine, you?, i heard that you have a new book factory!" Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa says as he holds Jordon,s shoulders.

[New Acardia]

" I am doing ok . It is just have a small publishing house " replies Cardinal Jordon

[The Papal City]

OOC: Oops, Catulus is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, I of course meant Cardinal Mazarin would go into details. Sorry about that, there are a lot of prefects to remember.

---

Jean-Claude Cardinal Mazarin, one of the most powerful of the members of the Papal Curia as part of "the Triad" together with Cardinals Richelieu and Marengo, stood up to address the Council. "Brothers and sisters." He spoke. "The Congregation proposes the following procedure for a non-Thrinian Church to enter into communion with Geneva: First the church in question must live up to an objective criteria, which we shall here define. Once it lives up to this criteria it may attain applicant status at which point negotiations between the Church in question and the Congregation shall commence a dialogue during which what specific issues with the Church in question not accounted for by the use of the general criteria, during this dialogue specific demands by the Thrinian Catholic Church may also be extended. Finally once its work is concluded the Congregation will present to the Pope the case and its recommendation. The Pope then either chooses to accept the church, to not accept the church but allow the church to retain its applicant status, or to reject entirely the church." The Cardinal explained in his native french, the language that was quickly supplanting Italian as the lingua franca in the Thrinian Catholic Church.

Pausing for a moment to allow simultaneous interpretation to catch up the Cardinal continued his slightly academic lecturing. "So what should such a criteria include? In order for us to decide on this perhaps we ought first consider the underlying debate between inclusivity or exclusivity. Do we desire for almost any church to be able to be in communion with Geneva or should it be a privilege afforded the few? Perhaps this more general debate, rather than discussion of specific issues of criteria, should be the focal point of our contemplations?" The Cardinal spoke, eyeing Cardinal Jordon and Bishop della Chiesa disapprovingly. Like the later pope John Paul III Mazarin had a background in teaching, but unlike the former Mazarin had earned a reputation for being quite strict, and he did not appreciate others talking during his speech.

"That said, the Congregation, with the Blessing of His Holiness, has of course made a rough outline for a criteria, one which reflects the Papacy's stance on the aforementioned discussion. The Papacy is in favor of inclusivity. The Universal Church today stands divided and an inclusive criteria may be the way to band together many churches under one pontificate. This may not be the unity that Christ desired, but it is a unity that may be attainable. Therefore the criteria proposed by the Congregation is one that takes its basis in the Nicene Creed as the source of all mainstream Christianity. Acceptance of Trinitarianism, the Divinity of Christ, though not necessarily the form of that divinity, and the other basic tenants of the Christian doctrine. With regards to non-doctrinal matters the papacy favors no criteria or a very limited one, to emphasize its desire for an inclusive criteria." The Cardinal paused for a moment. "That is the stance of the Papacy on these matters. Now I would like to hear from the Council if there is alignment of views on this matter?"

[Thrinia]

"While we do not oppose a non-Thrinian Church to enter into communion with Geneva, we do believe they need to recognize the primacy of his holiness, in other words, the recognition of the successor of Saint Peter as head of the Universal Catholic Church, and supreme primate of all Christians" Cardinal Della Rovere says with a calm but firm voice as he makes slow gestures with his right hand.

[Of the Quendi]

Though he had been briefed on what was coming, and could hardly complain about it being restrictive, Celdrahil sighed as Mazarin delivered his opening remarks. Already at accepting the Nicene Creed a sizable portion of Amanitte Nativist Christians would jump ship. People who acknowledged the Patriarchate of Yôzâyan, the Eruvian Magâunô Rite Churches, the Gnostic Magâunô Rite Churches and a number of other organizations would never accept the Council of Nicaea.

Yet even so, the patriarch and Dean of the College of Cardinals spoke up, addressing the concerns of Cardinal Della Rovere. "Recognition of the primacy of the Pope and of the Diocese of Geneva would certainly be a requirement Cardinal Della Rovere, of this there should be no debate. Only the extend to which the Pope can wield power over the Independent churches should be debatable." The patriarch spoke.

[Thrinia]

Though he had been briefed on what was coming, and could hardly complain about it being restrictive, Celdrahil sighed as Mazarin delivered his opening remarks. Already at accepting the Nicene Creed a sizable portion of Amanitte Nativist Christians would jump ship. People who acknowledged the Patriarchate of Yôzâyan, the Eruvian Magâunô Rite Churches, the Gnostic Magâunô Rite Churches and a number of other organizations would never accept the Council of Nicaea.

Yet even so, the patriarch and Dean of the College of Cardinals spoke up, addressing the concerns of Cardinal Della Rovere. "Recognition of the primacy of the Pope and of the Diocese of Geneva would certainly be a requirement Cardinal Della Rovere, of this there should be no debate. Only the extend to which the Pope can wield power over the Independent churches should be debatable." The patriarch spoke.

"Well for one he should be the only one that can approve of new doctrines, traditions and dogmas" Cardinal Della Rovere replies.

[New Acardia]

Though he had been briefed on what was coming, and could hardly complain about it being restrictive, Celdrahil sighed as Mazarin delivered his opening remarks. Already at accepting the Nicene Creed a sizable portion of Amanitte Nativist Christians would jump ship. People who acknowledged the Patriarchate of Yôzâyan, the Eruvian Magâunô Rite Churches, the Gnostic Magâunô Rite Churches and a number of other organizations would never accept the Council of Nicaea.

Yet even so, the patriarch and Dean of the College of Cardinals spoke up, addressing the concerns of Cardinal Della Rovere. "Recognition of the primacy of the Pope and of the Diocese of Geneva would certainly be a requirement Cardinal Della Rovere, of this there should be no debate. Only the extend to which the Pope can wield power over the Independent churches should be debatable." The patriarch spoke.

ne he should be the only one that can approve of new doctrines, traditions and dogmas"

"If other groups do not except the council of Nicaea . Then why would they want to be a member of our church in the first place ?" Asks Cardinal Jordon

[Thrinia]

ne he should be the only one that can approve of new doctrines, traditions and dogmas"

"If other groups do not except the council of Nicaea . Then why would they want to be a member of our church in the first place ?" Asks Cardinal Jordon

"And of course the other councils, like Trent, and Vatican I and II, but above all we must achieve unity with them"
"Like the Apostles, the Saints And the Angels!"
Says Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa says with great conviction and a gentle smile.
Making everybody in the Thrinian and the Wayzonian fall silent, as they stare at the young primate.

Think white zucchetto is purple. ;]

[New Acardia]

"We show the Gnostics no respect if we petend that are not heretics . But with that being said can we work with them in arieas of mutal cincern ? The answer is yes. And do we treat them with r
respect the answer is yes . " Cardinal Jordon goes on to say.

[Atherille]

Cardinal Stanwick rose again, waiting for Cardinal Mazarin to recognize him.

"I agree that we should seek unity and inclusion, but is it not enough to say that Churches must practice a Catholic rite to be in communion with the Thrinian Church? If the criteria for inclusion is simply a belief in Trinitarianism, in the divinity of Christ, and in the tenants of Christianity, that would encompass most of the Protestant churches as well. If we do allow the inclusion of the Protestant churches, for how long will we be able to remain Catholic, the reason for their separation being protest against the excesses of the Church. Much the same protests that led the Thrinian Church to schism several years past."

Stanwick glanced at Patriarch Rhodes briefly before continuing. "In Jurenga, the Catholic Church has close relations to the Episcopalian and Unitarian churches. Despite our cordial relations, however, those churches are not Catholic, and we would not presume to accept their inclusion as an Independent Catholic Church if they were to request it. We feel that a Church applying for acceptance as an Independent Church must practice a Catholic rite of some sort."

[New Acardia]

" You had said better than I could have said it Cardinal Stanwick " replies Cardinal Jordon

[Thrinia]

Cardinal Stanwick rose again, waiting for Cardinal Mazarin to recognize him.

"I agree that we should seek unity and inclusion, but is it not enough to say that Churches must practice a Catholic rite to be in communion with the Thrinian Church? If the criteria for inclusion is simply a belief in Trinitarianism, in the divinity of Christ, and in the tenants of Christianity, that would encompass most of the Protestant churches as well. If we do allow the inclusion of the Protestant churches, for how long will we be able to remain Catholic, the reason for their separation being protest against the excesses of the Church. Much the same protests that led the Thrinian Church to schism several years past."

Stanwick glanced at Patriarch Rhodes briefly before continuing. "In Jurenga, the Catholic Church has close relations to the Episcopalian and Unitarian churches. Despite our cordial relations, however, those churches are not Catholic, and we would not presume to accept their inclusion as an Independent Catholic Church if they were to request it. We feel that a Church applying for acceptance as an Independent Church must practice a Catholic rite of some sort."

"I do believe we are not speaking about protestants here brother" Says Auxiliary Bischop Jeremy Battista della Chiesa says with a concerned tone.

[New Acardia]

" What Cardinal Stanwick is saying . Is that member Churches have to adhere to Catholic doctrine and not be Protestant or Gnostic . Which I am in full agreement with him on this issue " replies Cardinal Jordon in a diplomatic tone

[Hessenheim]

Hessenheimic Delegation
Council of Geneva

Cardinal Auttenburg stood," I fully endorse the concerns put forth by Cardinal Stanwick. The question now becomes what rites would the Thrinian Church and His Holiness accept."

[Thrinia]

Hessenheimic Delegation
Council of Geneva

Cardinal Auttenburg stood," I fully endorse the concerns put forth by Cardinal Stanwick. The question now becomes what rites would the Thrinian Church and His Holiness accept."

"So in other words, they have to accept Valid Catholic Doctrines in order to join in Union with the Holy See"
"But does that mean they have to only accept our Dogmas, or also our traditions?, and if so, what traditions?" Cardinal Della Rovere asks.

[The Papal City]

Cardinal Mazarim cast a brief glance towards the Pope seeking guidance. A slight nod from John Paul III, who hid his disappointment well, brought Mazarin to his feet. "It is certainly pleasing that there are so many of you who have opinions on this important, even when those opinions run counter to those of the Papacy." Cardinal Mazarin spoke, not without some bitterness. "Before turning to the general disagreement on the debate of inclusivity versus exclusivity let me briefly address some of the more particular concerns raised." The Cardinal said.

Turning to Cardinal Della Rovere and Bishop della Chiesa the Cardinal dissented. "The whole point of independent churches is that churches of different traditions than the Latin and Roman one can follow those traditions without being in opposition to Rome. If we make them accept Councils such as Trent and Vatican I and II what differences would exist between them and us? Not to mention that making non-Chalcedonian churches that broke with the Latin rite thousand years before the Council of Trent adhere to decisions made in response to issues that they have not encountered would seem rather odd, unless we make them accept every council between Chalcedon and Trent as well. An altogether undesirable situation for any Eastern Catholic Church." The Cardinal claimed.

"With regards to gnosticism lets not confound things by inventing issues." The Cardinal continued flashing Cardinal Jordon a strict condemning glance. "No one argues for gnostics to be allowed to be in communion with Geneva. Almost no one anyway." Mazarin said, glancing towards a very uncomfortable Patriarch Celdrahil who clearly did not like the course of the conversation. "Gnostics do not qualify for communion as I can't imagine any being ready to acknowledge the Nicaea Counil, trinitarianism, the divinity of Christ etc. For this reason there are no reason to assume that the criteria of the papacy will tolerate gnosticism." The Cardinal proclaimed.

Increasingly frustrated with what was on his view clearly an exclusivist criteria the Cardinal finally turned to Cardinal Stanwick whose argument was at once the most relevant and the most devastating to the papal ambition. "With all due respect Cardinal I fail to see why Catholic rite churches should be allowed to become independent churches. The Congregation for the Independent Churches is supposed to accommodate churches which differ from the main church in rite, not provide autonomy to Churches which might as well become part of the main church." The Cardinal insisted. "By your definition many churches formerly in communion with Rome cannot be in communion with Geneva as many follow Byzantine, Antiochene or Alexandrian rites."

"You mention protestants." The Cardinal continued. "I am glad this particular concern has been brought up. The definition of the Papacy has been specifically tailored in order to allow for the possibility of Protestant churches being united with the Universal Church after nearly five centuries of schism. Why should we be hostile to this idea? Many protestants, anglicans for example, have far more in common with our Church than has for instance the Miaphysite Ge'ez rite of the Ethiopian Catholic Church which has been in communion with the Catholic Church since long before the establishment of the Thrinian Catholic Church. Why then should we reject the former when we accept the later."

The Cardinal, who despite being a Latin himself was getting increasingly agitated at what struck him as a full scale attack on those Oriental churches which he represented. "Unity not uniformity is the desire of the Papacy." He stated. "And on that note I would like to return to the underlying discussion, which clearly there are divergent opinions on, about exclusivity contra inclusivity. The Papacy, and by extension the Congregation for the Independent Churches, aspires for the Thrinian Catholic Church to be a universal church where divergent rites can blossom as independent churches in communion with Geneva. Who here share that ambition, and who does not?" The Cardinal asked in a confrontational manner.

Celdrahil followed the debate closely from the edge of his seat. Already with the Papal insistence on adherence to Nicaea he had lost every church in communion with the Patriarchate of Yôzâyan, if the Council demanded adherence to mainline catholic rites and recognition of Trent and Vatican I an II then Celdrahil's time as Patriarch and Primate over All Aman was drawing to a close.

[Thrinia]

"I am just afraid that if this continues we be scattered into hundreds of independent churches"
"As to the Eastern Catholic Church, i was mentioning the Council of Trent in regard to the application of the sacraments, and the existence of purgatory, which the Eastern Catholic Churches do not recognize" Cardinal Della Rovere gently replies.