University Days

[Isurioth]

Tong Ji Ning sighed again as he stood on the deck of the slow cargo ship. His expression was easily readable as melancholy. Instead of the white spires of his home in Orithena endless fields stretched to the horizon. Fields and flax and grain behind them, a still sameness.

The river's water,
Past field and farm it flows,
Taking me from home.

It was not the growing things and the small squat buildings that depressed him, or even the absence of friends and family; it was the banishment from real learning.

A spire among hills,
Above the sephia clouds,
Island in a mire.

The world really did have a washed out look; the colors were dull and unappealing. What would happen while he was hear forced to learn ignorance? His peers would continue to advance, and would take their place among the theors and scholics. And him? He would be a fool forever playing catch up.

Brightest lamp put out,
Pearl of great price among pigs,
Lost on a dark path.

Why was he chosen for this miserable assignment? Shouldn't he, the head of his age set, have been cultivated for something better? Now his mind would take root among mud and he would have no foundation to grow from.

With yet another sigh, he turned from the endless fields and looked to the city they were drawing close to.

"Brick; easy to produce, resistant to fire, lower structural load then stone. No city wall yet walled compounds; insure privacy, force attackers to enter killing ground, provide refuge during civil unrest. Complicated street plan; confound attackers, channel flow of people into pre-defined areas, prevent high speed traffic flow. Pubaqe't, a city built to destroy its would be besiegers. Designed to draw them into a trap and destroy them. Though in so doing it bares its breast to them."

He turned to his tutor who had accompanied him this far, "Wasn't it you who said that the way a man builds his house tells you his inmost thoughts? I have just analyzed this country's house. What would you say of ours? What of our vanity and our pride does it reveal? What deep flaw in our character does it display?"

"Your being cynical. Cynicism is just as blinding as optimism to the truth."

"A valid principle, but empirical testing has shown cynics to be right more often than optimists."

"Though still more often wrong. A split hair does not change the point."

"An equally valid point. So, to the source of the cynicism, what am I to accomplish so I may be done as soon as is possible?"

"Learn as they learn, no more and no less."

"And if I return and may converse with people half my age will that mean a success?"

"Cynicism again. We need them, and they do not need us. So long as that fact remains you will be respectful. If this goes well we might make this link between us less of a noose. Now, we are nearly there. Get your things and prepare to depart."

His bags were already at his feet, if there was one thing he liked less then this assignment, it was doing nothing. He had had precious little else to do on the ship.

They had just reached the edges of the city, it might prove to be somewhat more interesting than first anticipated.

Along the waterside large buildings stood. The markings on their sides indicated that they were granaries. Colorful frescos occupied a strip around the tops showing signs of agriculture and the grain process. A few even tried to depict the destination; among the exotic lands he did not recognize where images of what were supposed to be Orithena. Those that depicted a rather large wall were near the mark; those which tried to depict the interior were rather more interesting.

“Do they really thing Orithena looks like that?”

“You know that not one of those painters has ever seen the island, what else do they have but scraps of our conversations? Rather good for being created from imagination don’t you think?”

“They don’t seem to agree much on what it is like. I wonder if they think of us the same way they think of our land.”

“Whatever they think of us, you must do your best to break down. That is also your duty.”

When the ship reached its berth a flurry of activity started. There would be little haggling today, the cargos had been agreed upon ahead of time; a shipment of medium grade marble for grain. They might haggle over the total amount of grain, but the ship would leave with no marble and a full hold of grain; the competition was more for show and socializing.

As he walked down the gang plank, after being nearly thrown over by the crew in their haste to be done, he found himself looking around for the one thing he knew he would recognize, the cathedral. All things built by Orithenian hands had an unmistakable look to them, and this particular think happened to be nearly an order of magnitude larger than the buildings around him. Turning in a slow circle, he did not see it so he continued walking until he found one of the bridges across the river. Still the lofty spires he had expected were not to be seen.

“Quite a problem, having lost one’s destination. Well, there is nothing for it…”

So saying he walked to the largest and most busy money changing booth he could find.

“You there, you are a changer of currencies yes? I will require your services.” A rather large wad of Orithenian bills were withdrawn in a neat fold and thrown carelessly on the table. “That should do for now. I would also like to take out the largest loan I can make from these funds without a cosigner.”

When his business was concluded, he asked directions from a local and, after getting lost several times, ended up in the cathedral square. He had walked into one of those gaps where no people are that occasionally form in a crowd when his eyes, which had before been kept earthward, were drawn up by the clean lines of the massive structure…

[Angermanland]

Pahi'gat was always pleased when the cathedral was set as a meeting place. No matter how used to it one was, it drew ones eyes upwards, away from one's surroundings. The fact that it really was beautiful didn't hurt either, of course, but the main reason she liked it was that it always provided a distraction, allowing her to observe people without them even knowing she there. And between that distraction and the crowds, she could usually give the appearance of appearing out of nowhere when she approached the person in question. Such little mind games amused her.

She checked the note the Master of Languages had given her one last time to be sure she had the right person. The description seemed to match, anyway, and the man standing in the square and gazing at the cathedral certainly had all the hallmarks of someone recently arrived in the capital, if nothing else. She toyed briefly with the idea of calling out his name, but rejected it. It would ruin her stealthy approach, but more significantly she'd probably mangle it badly enough as to render it unrecogniseable. The pronunciation of Angerman and Orth consonants managed to neatly drop in between each other, for the most part, which just made the whole thing awkward. Presumably this Tong fellow spoke Angerman at least passably enough to be understood, or else he would not have been sent. So she hoped, at least. Her own grasp of spoken Orth was rudimentary at best.

In the end, she simply walked up behind him, quietly, stopping just behind the foreigner's shoulder. “Quite magnificent, isn't it? The cathedral here is generally acknowledged to be one of the great wonders of the age. No nation could ever gather the wealth required to build it for their own aggrandisement,” she flashed a grin at the Orithenian, who had turned, started, as she began speaking. “I believe you are the one I was sent to find. You are bound for the university here, are you not?” she had spoken in Angerman, and while prepared to attempt to explain herself in Orth if necessary, really did not wish to if it could be avoided. “I'm Pahi'gat, by the way. Though my friends shorten it to Pahi' most of the time.”

[Isurioth]

After recovering from his initial surprise at not noticing the woman Tong’s face again became an unreadable mask. *I will have to be more aware, it could have been rouge just as easily. I cannot allow myself to relax here.*

“There was one once, though for the prestige gained by its use they lost the very thing that had gained them such.” His Angerman was flawless, his accent was very noticeable, but in no way impaired comprehension.

“But such things are matters for academic debate and not pleasant conversation.” His tone gave no indication which one of the two he thought this was.

“You are correct though, I am headed for the university. Shall we be on our way, or is there something you would like to do while we are here?”

As they left the cathedral square they passed buildings which Tong appeared to pay little attention to.

“It was suggested that I take an Angerman name. I noticed that you were very circumspect about not using mine. May I ask your advice in this matter? You don’t have to answer now, but I would appreciate something which will at least give me the pleasure of being addressed by total strangers sent to find me.”

Seemingly from nowhere Tong switched topics,

“I notice that all the exterior windows seem rather narrow and few are on the first floor. Would you happen to be expecting attack, or do your people not mind living in so military a city? It would seem that if the enemy had penetrated this far that the loss or salvation of one city would not change the situation much. Or is there perhaps something I am missing?”

[Angermanland]

Pahi' had been considering Tong’s earlier questions, keeping her eyes more on the flow of people than on her charge, calmly and easily slipping through gaps in the crowd that would allow them both to pass before they closed up again, thus never needing to stop or hurry. his last question, however, brought her up short.

"i had... never really considered it such. This is simply how we have always built. To the best of my knowledge, every city in Angermanland is built this way, and most towns of any size outside of the marches, as well. Besides, what is there to see at street level? having windows there would simply allow the noise of people's comings and goings to intrude upon the peace within the walls."

noticing that they were starting to disrupt the flow of traffic, she began walking again, though a little less purposefully than had previously been the case.
"I take it you've not been in the trade districts yet? they have reason to open onto the street, to sell their wares. Often large parts of a baker's wall are given over to a serving counter, for example.

That aside, you asked about a name? You don't need to take a new one, provided you don't mind everyone you meet butchering it in new and interesting ways." she smiled again, "Honestly, I only avoided using yours because i didn't expect you to recognise that that's what I was actually saying, especially in a crowd like that. so few of the sounds in our languages line up, and the patterns don't match either. Figured it'd cause less confusion this way. Still, if you would take an Angerman name for yourself, it should be easy enough to find one that suits you. You speak the language well enough, after all, and I assume that you can read and write it. I doubt you'd have been sent otherwise. ah! there now, the University is just at the end of this street. "

The university was one of the larger structures in the city. In style, it was little different from any other, simply larger. but the outer wall, where most would decorate with artistic scenes of various sorts (often from their family history) , simple geometric patterns, and the names of the occupying family, present and former, the university had texts. not complex theorems or tangled arguments about one thing or another, but basic truths, and proverb after proverb. simple things that anyone who could read would understand, but significant enough that even the most well educated scholar and grandest minister would be expected to be aware of them.

Pahi' simply walked up to the smaller gate used to admit small groups of people, rather than carts or processions, banged on it with her fist a couple of times, then shoved it open and walked in. A porter emerged from the gatehouse, saw who it was, waved, and returned to what he'd been doing previously. "I warn you," Pahi' said as they entered the grounds proper, "if you come in late at night, or drunk, the gate men take a lot more interest. Especially if they don't know you."

She halted once more "Now. there are twelve lecture halls, which neatly line up with the numbers on the sundial in the middle of the grounds there, so it should be hard to lose your way in that regard. though keep in mind that not all of them are on the ground floor. the kitchens and dining hall are in the back left corner there, the faculty have their rooms and offices in the back right, the library takes up most of the second floor down the right hand side there, the single men's dormitories are in the front right corner there, see the tower? well, it's not much of a tower, i suppose, but it is a three floors taller than the rest of the buildings, so that's what everyone calls it. The ground floor's a lecture hall though. The single women's dormitories are in the front left corner. see how it's a level higher than the rest? Ground floor's a lecture hall again, though. I warn you, a dim view is taken of men who attempt to gain entrance there," she paused, briefly " And of those who bring women into the men's dorm, for that matter. The cleaners and such don't count, of course, unless one attempts something improper. Of course, official punishment for the reverse is the same, though the social implications are ... different. better in some ways, worse in others. Best to avoid the whole mess, really.

anyway, have you got all that? i can go over it again if necessary, but if not, i should probably take you to see the Chancellor next. get everything sorted out... oh! I have your room assignment in the dorms here. We can get one of the porters to take your luggage there first, if you don't want to be dragging it around with you. "

[Isurioth]

“Your explanation will be sufficient for now. Would you mind telling me if the different ages are intermingled or if they remain separate in the dormitories? Also, would you please direct me to the proper place for submitting request to the head of state? I have a letter I was asked to carry.”

He pulled from his robes a letter on fine white paper. It was sealed with three seals; blue with the symbol of a swan and seagull in flight, red with an eagle holding bolts of lightning, and green with a tree and a book.

“Also, a schedule of classes be appreciated…”

(OOC: The message is the request for assistance in the war either in money, men, or both. How about we move to the first class, preferably one in which there is some kind of debate?)

[Angermanland]

"Ages aren't particularly separate. I'm one of the few who's not reached my majority yet, actually. unlike the village schools, or the academies, the universities are quite expensive. Though new students are given the rooms vacated by the old, so there is a degree of clustering by seniority. As for the schedule, well... there are notice boards out side the faculty office, and each of the dorms. Who's lecturing on what when is put up there, as are any discussion groups, well, those that don't form spontaneously, and projects. it's pretty much up to you to sort it out for yourself.

honestly, i don't know about getting stuff to the Prince. I suppose one would take it to the palace. most people don't have reason to go there unless summoned, but they'd let you in far enough to speak to someone who could help you, at least."

[Isurioth]

Walking from Tivages lecture Tong couldn't help muttering to himself about the pointlessness of it all.

[Flashback to the previous week] "I am sorry sir, but you have not been summoned. I cannot let you see the Prince."

"I assure you this letter is authentic. It was presented to me by the emperor of Orithena himself."

"I am sorry sir, you cannot get in. However the clerk can direct you to the proper office for an appointment." [End Flashback]

"I cannot believe I have to wait two days to deliver a simple letter. These people would never be able to sustain meaningful correspondence."

As he walked he pondered the uselessness of a class on political theory in a land of barbarians. As he entered one of the gardens he saw the student Sunvapeq talking with his flock of onlookers. The conversation seemed to be on the lecture they had both left.

"So Sv-nu-fa-pe", or something to that extent came out, "you disagree with Tivages. Do you presume to do better?"

"Feh! of course. It is plain that the vast majority of peoples in this world are not so educated as the Angermani. The balances don't hold when the governed are ignorant. They can only undermine a ruler's position if he gives them freedom to act on their baser impulses."

"Might I suggest we have a dialogue then?" The word dialogue was an Orth word and did not immediately register, "My apologies, a discussion. If the balances do not lead to a universally applicable or universal form of government then let us see what such a government would look like. From first principles let us try to construct an ideal state, one where the failings of the people will not undermine the ruler. These worthy onlookers can provide commentary where appropriate."

[Angermanland]

Sunvapeq had been holding court under one of the larger trees in the garden. there were a few bench seats, but most of the students found the grass more comfortable and were seated or sprawled in various manners as was their wont, some more decorously than others.

the man himself was one of those prone to pacing as he spoke, so there was a fairly clear area around him. he was clean shaven, of average height, and in good health, to all appearances. his voice also dripped venom and contempt for all around him with every syllable uttered.

"An ideal state only exists in an ideal world, and in That world the balances Would work. but i shall Assume you meant the government most fitting for use in this world. if that is the case, then the following holds true;

a state must be governed by those best suited, this is quite obvious. They must have a greater capacity for judgment and mental ability than those they rule. Therefore it becomes clear that once selected the ruler must be beyond reproach. His faculties are beyond those of the people at large, who are frankly little more than cattle by comparison.

it is equally obvious, from that point, that the main requirement in establishing an appropriate government is in selecting and training an individual of appropriate capabilities and then granting unto him the power to effectively govern the state."

his pause and expression, as well as the fact that his pacing ceased, invited response... if only, they seemed to say, to prove it's inadequacy.

[Terror Incognitia]

It was rare, in Incognitia, for anyone to go to Angermanland to study.
There were two quite capable universities, in Marston and Teversham. Both were well-established, and more than merely theological colleges.
However, occasionally the scion of a wealthy house would be sent to university in Angermanland. The sheer expense of the exercise was a sign of prestige, and rightly or wrongly (most considered wrongly) the education was seen as somehow 'better'.

One of the few was Geoffrey Ravencroft. His father was a wealthy Earl from the Western counties; his mother the daughter of a successful Dunkennen merchant. Geoffrey was the third son; the heir was already administering much of their father's lands, and the middle son was a somewhat successful mercenary. Geoffrey had been meant to enter the Church, but his father had grudgingly accepted that his third son showed little sign of a vocation, and packed off the embarrassment to the distant Pubaqe't, in order that he might at least add a little cachet to the family from a distance.

He had swiftly been drawn to studies of administration and philosophy. His tutors and fellow students recognised a swift if unusual mind, and he was watching with interest. He would be advancing his own view of the ideal state soon, though he wished to await Tong's thoughts first.
"Best to know what one's arguing against, Geoff old son."

[Isurioth]

Tong looked at Sunvapeg with something akin to slight confusion. “My dear friend, I am sure you are correct. In my ignorance I don’t quite know what you mean. I am afraid that you will have to explain a little more to me so that I may properly understand.

You are right, it is quite obvious that those who are best suited should rule, but how would you chose those who are best? Surely no man who comes from the same culture and was raised in the traditions and knowledge of his people can be any more or less capable then his peers provided he has applied himself to the wisdom of his fathers with equal fervor as they. I am sure you are much more cleaver then I am, and the way to do this is so simple that you did me the honor of not mentioning it so as to not highlight my ignorance. I am afraid on that regard I must undo your good work towards me.

I am also confused on how such a man once found was to be trained. I know of no leader who did not begin lacking several of the qualities they would later show and which they gained by hard struggle against ignorance in every situation. I am sure in Angermanland it is different and all the things which a man would otherwise learn can be taught to him before he takes his scepter. In fact, this sounds like a very good idea for all men, would it not be best for everyone to be trained like that so that there would no more be apprenticeships or schools, but everyone would begin a master of their craft. I would be delighted if you could explain how cleaver you Angermen are and help me to understand this wonderful system you have.

Also, as I am not very smart, could you please tell me what power such a ruler would have? I must understand you incorrectly that one single man is to govern a state. Surely there would be a class of such people so trained who could handle such duties. How then would a prince be selected from among them, when each is already a master of his craft from the time he begins?

How also would the people, who as you say are like cattle, be induced to support this prince when they are so beneath him in their faculties that they are bound to misinterpret his edicts for harmful to themselves and thus be liable not to obey them?

There are some other points where I am equally confused, but I do not want to burden you to much with my ignorance. If you can answer these questions, as I am sure you can, then perhaps the other answers will become clear to me.

OOC: Socratic Method FTW

[Angermanland]

"well, to begin with, that is the very Point in schools and apprenticeships. that each may have as much training and knowledge of one's craft as possible before properly beginning it. doing away with them would hardly help. the closer one can come to being a master from the beginning, the better. i am unsure how this point could elude you.

regardless, how to select and train the next prince is not something i have a firm grip on as yet. this is why i presented it. the point in a discussion is, after all, to find a usable outcome or solution. this does not demand proving the other person wrong where he is not, nor forcing an incomplete idea, save when nothing better is presented. i present what i have. if it is beyond your understanding, than such a conversation is of no use to me, though i shall answer your questions in as much as i can for the benefit of those listening.

i see no reason to limit the power of a competent prince, save perhaps that it is desirable that, if there is a better man for the task and the current prince should prove undesirable through incompetence, be it due to madness or otherwise, he should be replaced. an earthly prince is no more divine than any other man, after all. though this presents the interesting challenge of selecting who should make the decision that this is so. perhaps that inevitable class of lesser, similarly educated men? though surely such men would each desire the position for themselves, and see it as to their benefit. how does one solve this problem, humm?

as for the popular support, you seem to have missed my point entirely. the popular will is meaningless. no matter how intelligent the man, put him together with others in a group, especially a like minded group, and he will to all appearances become a fool. the people, ruled by a prince who is properly chosen, shall obey, or be made to obey, for that is in their best interests, though they often will not see it."

[Terror Incognitia]

"I am afraid I must commence to disagree with you there, Sunvapeg."
Geoffrey's voice cut out across the little gathering, and he then stood to commence speaking.
"Sunvapeg proposes giving one individual total power so that the failings of the rest of the population cannot overthrow the state.
Clearly this puts the entire state at the mercy of the failings of the Prince. As a reading of history informs us, it inflicts misery, poverty, starvation, and defeat upon the poor population led by a bad Prince. And that's if they win the wars he will cast them into.
The crucial point to add to this obvious historical fact, is that it is inevitable, given the imperfection of all humans and human systems, that an incompetent or wicked Prince will take the throne.
As soon as one accepts this simple truth, we begin to see that it is necessary to limit the power of the Prince, for the good of his people.
But how should it be limited? I can already see you thinking, in a crisis where the Prince knows what must be done, why should the necessary action be delayed?
And my friends, I agree with you - the Prince should hold broad executive powers, to act as seems necessary within the bounds of the law. He appoints governors and generals, commands armies, ACTS.
So where then is the limit upon his power? In that crucial phrase - in the bounds of the law. The Prince should not make the law which he must abide by. The law should be made by his people, or such as they choose to act in their behalf. This is the crucial check against tyranny; that a Prince may be restrained from acting against his own people by the laws they have made.
Of course this shows that even a Prince is beneath the law - the true sovereign is the Law itself."
Geoffrey was not the most impressive orator, but he had a reasonable grounding in the art of rhetoric. Besides and around the words, he made eye contact with his audience. His intonation rose and fell with the ideas he gave forth.
"So we have already stripped from the Prince of our theoretical land one important power, that of making the Law by Royal Proclamation or Decree. Now comes time to remove another - the Prince is not a judge in the law courts. After all, if the restraint on the Prince's power is the law, but the Prince decides whether or not the law is broken, what is the use of that law? It becomes the Prince's decree, because he may enact those portions of it which he chooses whenever he sees fit. Each man should be judged by a group of his peers, not a remote magistrate. A jurist may be employed to ensure the jurymen understand the law correctly and to guide them in the correct punishment under the law, but the decision of guilt lies with a man's peers."

"Though my thesis is of course incomplete, I feel I should give others the opportunity to respond to it, so I shall summarise it here.
In order to prevent destructive tyranny, no man must hold unlimited power. In order that the division of power lead to co-operation not a struggle for dominance, it is best that each power in the land have a different area of competence. The Prince holds the executive power, that of acting decisively. The people make the law - the system and means of doing that are infinite in variation, but it represents the contract between them and the Prince. And the judgement of breaches of the law is conducted by a third group."

[Isurioth]

Tong gave a heavy sigh, in Orth he spoke to himself: "The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes. The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous." That said he turned to to the gathered people and began to speak, interrupting Sun mid sentence.

"Both of you show the wrongness in your thinking, though I think you son of the unknown place are less in error.

The purpose of the state is not the benefit of its people or their advancement. The purpose of the state is neither peace nor war. The purpose of the state is the state and no more. Every state from the community of a man's thoughts to the empire which has ruled a thousand years is concerned first and foremost with its own continuation.

For this reason three priorities consume all states and without them there is no state. These are the preservation of the nation, the defense of its borders, and the peace within its borders. To accomplish these things those states which last will use what methods are appropriate to them. Law is the instrument of the state for the state as is social justice.

The flaw in your thinking is that you want to build a state and call it ideal. If there is to be true happiness then the contract of people must be with each other, not with the state, for the state will ever seek after its own ends just as a guild will lead its nation to ruin if allowed growth unchecked.

The power of a people must be held by those who do not seek it, for those who seek power desire more. Advancement in the hierarchy of a state will either create resentment among the lower echelons or intrigues in the upper. When those who govern seek after governance as its own end then they are unfit to rule over a thinking people.

You Sunvapeg say that those beneath are like cattle. If that is the case then their is no dignity in the throne. Just as a king who is rich well his people are in poverty cannot enjoy the full majesty due a king and it is disastrous to his prestige before his peers if his nation should come to ruin for the preservation of his opulence. Would you lord over these worthy gentlemen if they were simple or ignorant? No then how much more so would it be to rule over a nation of fools and troublemakers!

If the only method for a king is to cause his subjects to be compelled to obey him through his might and not through love of him then he is a fairly poor doctor who can only cure the disease of being leaderless with the malady of ignorance. Furthermore, such a king you held himself above his people in mind could not be said to be their king but their slave master for he would hold his will as being of value and theirs as not and how then is that not slavery when he has the power of force to compel their obedience?"

Here he took a breath and looked with cold contempt upon this fool who spoke with words without knowledge.

"You son of the Unknown land are correct in your thinking that law must be held above a Prince for only then can a man say that he is a leader of his people. However law is not the highest sovereign for law also seeks its own propagation. The letter of the law will take precedence over its spirit if it is given such authority. The laws of a people must be those which are writ deeply on their hearts and which were men honest would not be required to be written for every child born can tell you that murder is wrong and theft is not just. A law which says otherwise is no law, but an implement of subjugation and dominion hidden in a fine robe.

As you have said the power of the people against their sovereign must be sufficient to overcome his vices. However in order for those choices he makes which are harmful to some of the people but which benefit all in balance he must subscribe to a higher code of reason then is common among men. All men cannot know all things and it is the duty of a Prince to know what must be done. As such he must prove himself worthy of his power so that if he is a bad ruler he may be removed and if he is a good one then his word will be upheld even when the reasons are not fully known."

His voice had become noticeably less angry when speaking to the Incognitian, but now the full venom returned.

"Now Sunvapeg, if you you are too much a fool to recognize a gift then I will be severe. No Prince may rule without the consent of the governed. No army will preserve him against their ire. Even though men are disposed to endure evil while it is bearable they are just as disposed to suffer great loss when those evils are no longer so. A Prince who knows the love of his people will have no need of force to impose his will. A Prince with the respect of his his people will have also their trust and their obedience. A Prince who has their fear will gain also their resentment. And a Prince who has their hate will never no a quite sleep for their he rules ever day on borrowed time and the collection will be heavy indeed when they chose to take from him their due of justice.

The only way for a thinking people to rule themselves is to chose from among themselves those most able, shown to be sound in judgment and skilled in administration. Those may then chose among themselves their most skilled, who they in their humility will know are better then themselves. There must also be those with skill and knowledge in all kinds of things who may offer both advice and judgment in matters relating to what the people may and will do. Finally there must a Prince who has been raised all the days of his life in how he is to lead his people.

When these three forces sit in equal strength under the direction of the Sovereign then any two may overcome the folly of the other. If two shall both be in the wrong then it shall reflect a great wrongness in either the people or the learned and that no nation can overcome.

These and these only should be the pillars of governance and the pillars should not be multiplied unnecessary or else cliques and factions shall dominate. Even as such they will endure but no one shall have strength enough to overcome the will of the many unless the very vast part of the people shall already subscribe to it.

This is not complete, but is the groundwork for a state which shall endure for many centuries while yours will have have fallen to revolution."

While he had been talking he had stood up strait to his full 6'7" height. He looked down on Sunvapeg and his flunkies with something akin to scorn.

OOC: Sorry for the rant.

[Angermanland]

ooc: well, it's crap, but i think i found a way out of this. maybe. oh, and i really couldn't be bothered trying to slog through the above again to write this, so the issues are, mostly, from memory.

IC:

Sunvapeq's reaction to the Orthian's posturing was probably not quite what the taller man had expected. he reached up, grabbed Tong's shoulder just so, and twisted, causing him to collapse to his knees, bent forward and twisting slightly away. that particular grip was applying significant pressure to one of the nerves which returned a pain signal to the man's brain.

"by the Flames, man! you ASKED for an ideal state. to then call us wrong because that is what we seek in order to answer you is to prove you don't even know your own mind, let alone that of other men! " Sunvapeq released his grip and shoved Tong away, back and sideways, taking a half step himself in the other direction

he calmed slightly, ceasing to shout, but there was still anger in his voice "any man with the wit to understand it will refuse the gift of mockery. if you have a question, ask. if you seek knowledge? ask. if you know already, why ask? if you know already, and i do not, you Tell. it is a fairly fundamental function of the language, let alone discussion.

Geoffrey, here, i disagree with in many particulars, but his points are well made, and aid understanding. You, on the other hand, and i am not entirely sure why i expected otherwise from one of your origins, present insult and claim it wisdom, say 'let us create together' then seek to destroy what is presented in favour of your own grand vision..."

beginning to become red faced with the effort of restraining his own temper, Sunvapeq made a dismissive gesture, tilting his face down and slightly to the left while flicking his hand out and up, his elbow bent so the resulting gesture was very much an 'away with you' motion.

"guah, you say discussion, but intend only base argument. i have no time for you." he turned on his heel and left briskly, unconcerned about any consequences. he had done the arrogant fool no real harm, after all, and perhaps taught a lesson.

ooc: and That is how i get out of that situation when I'm not up to the level the character is. please note that IC references to violence being the refuge of the stupid [or however it goes] will meet only ... limited... sympathy. Tong really did insult him, at the very least, and was taking what would usually be interpreted as quite a threatening stance. of course, no one will reject the statement outright. Sunvapeq is an arsehole, even if he's not as stupid, ignorant, foolish, or whatever else as my lack of skill and knowledge make him seem in these posts. consequently no one has any great sympathy for him, either.

[Isurioth]

Tong rose at an unrushed passe. When he did he spoke softly, though those around him could hear him well enough.

"I ask, because I wish to know how you will answer a question where the answer is not what I seek, but your answering of it."

A paused slightly,

"and I pray that you are not the best of your people, or else they shall suffer much indeed."