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by Faikliren » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:12 pm
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:16 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"Our alliance already stipulates that we help fellow member-states in case of attack, let that be from a terrorist group or another state. It is also more than obvious that the IFA stands against terrorism and extremism. Hence, this condemnation is really redundant and I don't see the utility. We already stand against terrorism and extremism and fellow IFA states are free to help other external states as long as it doesn't breach the rules of the alliance. The Rapid Reaction Force has been created only to aid our fellow IFA member states in case of attack - not to help non-IFA states in their troubles with such groups. It is not their responsibility and IFA members have donated troops and money to the RRF to specifically help the IFA members not non-allied members. So with that, what is the use of this resolution?"
"We are not advocating for the use of the IFA rapid response force as a world police we are seeking support and unity against terrorism we will not be required as I, Felix and the resolution states to provide aid but it will better inform us of the threats and better inform other alliances of our terrorist threats so they can help us if we need/request it. Now you may so this is pointless we already condemn terrorism, well then all the more reason to sign it. We gain lots to include better relations with other alliances, support in case of a terrorist attack, information of terrorism threats. I have yet to see a legitimate negative sign to this resolution" -James Resim
by Elemental North » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:19 pm
Faikliren wrote:"After some review, I feel that my nation ideologically supports the current resolution. However, we all should know that we cannot be the world police regardless of how many members and who we are allied with. Due to this internal conflict, I, Ciejvel Naredue, must ABSTAIN from voting."
NO. 1 TITTY INSPECTOR
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:42 pm
Bratislav wrote:The United Regions wrote:"We are not advocating for the use of the IFA rapid response force as a world police we are seeking support and unity against terrorism we will not be required as I, Felix and the resolution states to provide aid but it will better inform us of the threats and better inform other alliances of our terrorist threats so they can help us if we need/request it. Now you may so this is pointless we already condemn terrorism, well then all the more reason to sign it. We gain lots to include better relations with other alliances, support in case of a terrorist attack, information of terrorism threats. I have yet to see a legitimate negative sign to this resolution" -James Resim
"What I want to know is simply this. Does this resolution stipulate the use of the RRF to aid non-IFA countries that are under attack by the given terrorist groups? Can the IFA RRF be used to aid non-IFA members under this resolution? If not, is this resolution simply just a symbolic condemnation of terrorism? Thank you."
"My esteemed colleague from Elemental North. Given the mixed response from our members regarding this resolution I think it is key that we debate this resolution further. We still need to be certain on the legal ramifications of this resolution. Thank you."
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:51 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"What I want to know is simply this. Does this resolution stipulate the use of the RRF to aid non-IFA countries that are under attack by the given terrorist groups? Can the IFA RRF be used to aid non-IFA members under this resolution? If not, is this resolution simply just a symbolic condemnation of terrorism? Thank you."
"My esteemed colleague from Elemental North. Given the mixed response from our members regarding this resolution I think it is key that we debate this resolution further. We still need to be certain on the legal ramifications of this resolution. Thank you."
"The RRF will not be used without your approval and this pact recognizes that when it says "yet not required" referring to the deployment of aid. So no I do not think the RRF could be used to aid non members because you made it clear that the RRF is for members protection only, thus a request for aid under the Jerica Pact would be left to the alliance to urge or request that member nations send in their individual military as support either that or create a coalition force, as alternatives to using the RRF." -Resim
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:00 pm
Bratislav wrote:The United Regions wrote:"The RRF will not be used without your approval and this pact recognizes that when it says "yet not required" referring to the deployment of aid. So no I do not think the RRF could be used to aid non members because you made it clear that the RRF is for members protection only, thus a request for aid under the Jerica Pact would be left to the alliance to urge or request that member nations send in their individual military as support either that or create a coalition force, as alternatives to using the RRF." -Resim
"Given that I would like for WER to affirm that fact about the RRF. He should be aware that the RRF is not allowed to help non-IFA nations and is only to be used to aid IFA nations for defense. That is immutable. Given that is established, we are left with the conclusion that this resolution is merely just a condemnation of several groups. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a symbolic condemnation. However, does this symbolic condemnation warrant potentially starting a conflict with these groups and threatening the security of IFA members?
An example: A given person doesn't like wasps, but in not liking wasps, the person won't go and start hitting the wasp's nest, yeah he will make his point, but he will also incur the wrath of the wasps which will bite him even more than they would have if he had not done that. I think this example applies here. "
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:04 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"Given that I would like for WER to affirm that fact about the RRF. He should be aware that the RRF is not allowed to help non-IFA nations and is only to be used to aid IFA nations for defense. That is immutable. Given that is established, we are left with the conclusion that this resolution is merely just a condemnation of several groups. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a symbolic condemnation. However, does this symbolic condemnation warrant potentially starting a conflict with these groups and threatening the security of IFA members?
An example: A given person doesn't like wasps, but in not liking wasps, the person won't go and start hitting the wasp's nest, yeah he will make his point, but he will also incur the wrath of the wasps which will bite him even more than they would have if he had not done that. I think this example applies here. "
"That example applies well here actually, and I am glad you brought it up, We as an alliance must vote on rather or not a terrorist group is added to the Jerica Pacts list per say the Pact, thus if we have the fear of adding a terror organization for that reason then all we must do is vote Nay and it will not be added. Now if you feel that conflict with this group rom say other alliances may make a target of us, well that would be true if we got involved and some of our members may get involved if someone from another alliance is attacked by terrorist, yes. But in that instance would it not be necessary or at least justified? In the event of 'preemptive attacks" on terrorists you as the founder of the IFA may prohibit members from intervening for the safety of other members thus not making us a target." -Resim
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:12 pm
Bratislav wrote:The United Regions wrote:"That example applies well here actually, and I am glad you brought it up, We as an alliance must vote on rather or not a terrorist group is added to the Jerica Pacts list per say the Pact, thus if we have the fear of adding a terror organization for that reason then all we must do is vote Nay and it will not be added. Now if you feel that conflict with this group rom say other alliances may make a target of us, well that would be true if we got involved and some of our members may get involved if someone from another alliance is attacked by terrorist, yes. But in that instance would it not be necessary or at least justified? In the event of 'preemptive attacks" on terrorists you as the founder of the IFA may prohibit members from intervening for the safety of other members thus not making us a target." -Resim
"The problem is simply that these terror groups upon seeing the condemnation will instantly make us a target and being attacking us. They don't care about the consequences, they will just attack. Yes, we would respond strongly, but again, why should we make IFA a target? Just for a simple verbal condemnation? Of course we reject terrorism and extremism. IFA members have the freedom to coordinate their foreign/military policy as long as it doesn't violate our rules. With or without this resolution they have the same capabilities. In all, I see no benefit of this resolution, the only thing it does is make us a target and make our members more unsafe."
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:14 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"The problem is simply that these terror groups upon seeing the condemnation will instantly make us a target and being attacking us. They don't care about the consequences, they will just attack. Yes, we would respond strongly, but again, why should we make IFA a target? Just for a simple verbal condemnation? Of course we reject terrorism and extremism. IFA members have the freedom to coordinate their foreign/military policy as long as it doesn't violate our rules. With or without this resolution they have the same capabilities. In all, I see no benefit of this resolution, the only thing it does is make us a target and make our members more unsafe."
"Yes it may make us a target but that is why we are given the power to vote rather or not we want to add a terrorist organization to the list. And the reason we have this Pact is so that if a member nation of the IFA is attacked we will receive the support from many nations from multiple alliances. I bet you if the resolution was passed right now within days there would be countless support from the other member alliances sending aid both military and humanitarian to support Guerro in their current terrorist struggle." -Resim
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:26 pm
Bratislav wrote:The United Regions wrote:"Yes it may make us a target but that is why we are given the power to vote rather or not we want to add a terrorist organization to the list. And the reason we have this Pact is so that if a member nation of the IFA is attacked we will receive the support from many nations from multiple alliances. I bet you if the resolution was passed right now within days there would be countless support from the other member alliances sending aid both military and humanitarian to support Guerro in their current terrorist struggle." -Resim
"But then why would we add any organization if adding them makes us a target? In essence it would be an empty list. About Guerro, that may be true, but I'm not sure how keen Guerro would be to have Communist or Fascist troops in his country. "
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:44 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"But then why would we add any organization if adding them makes us a target? In essence it would be an empty list. About Guerro, that may be true, but I'm not sure how keen Guerro would be to have Communist or Fascist troops in his country. "
"Because there may be organizations that rather on our list or not would attack us either way, and by adding them to our list we have in essence some of the worlds biggest alliances at our aid in case of such an attack. And in the case of Guerro if he comes to the rational decision to not want communist or fascists troops on his land, [can't say I disagree] then they can perhaps as I mentioned send non-military aid or protect the waters, ensure there are no other organizations supporting this one, find targets in that organization in other countries, ect. but ultimately this Pact if ratified could lead to a safer world for IFA nations and for the World by eliminating or at least creating a safety net in case of terrorism." -Resim
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:55 pm
Bratislav wrote:The United Regions wrote:"Because there may be organizations that rather on our list or not would attack us either way, and by adding them to our list we have in essence some of the worlds biggest alliances at our aid in case of such an attack. And in the case of Guerro if he comes to the rational decision to not want communist or fascists troops on his land, [can't say I disagree] then they can perhaps as I mentioned send non-military aid or protect the waters, ensure there are no other organizations supporting this one, find targets in that organization in other countries, ect. but ultimately this Pact if ratified could lead to a safer world for IFA nations and for the World by eliminating or at least creating a safety net in case of terrorism." -Resim
"Do we really want Communist or Fascist countries intervening in our conflicts or situations? Because that's the main way that such alliances would help us. We already have a partnership with the WC which gives us plenty of additional support. Even if they "stand by our side" we are still creating more conflict for ourselves and potentially creating dangerous situations where potential adversaries get military access to member states for the sake of fighting terrorism. "
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:09 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"Do we really want Communist or Fascist countries intervening in our conflicts or situations? Because that's the main way that such alliances would help us. We already have a partnership with the WC which gives us plenty of additional support. Even if they "stand by our side" we are still creating more conflict for ourselves and potentially creating dangerous situations where potential adversaries get military access to member states for the sake of fighting terrorism. "
"In no way would nations be forced to get helped in the event of a terrorist attack and as I said there are other ways if members are afraid of allowing fascists or communists on their land likewise many of the other alliances members are not communist or fascists including the alliance my nation is founder of the Christian Liberty Alliance which shares many of the same values as the IFA as well as plenty of the UL's members [I will admit there are some] and most of The Union of Armed nations members. Anyways if a nation were to do such a thing then the IFA as well as I'm sure the alliance it comes from and the other member alliances would condemn said actions and provide support for the attacked nation and go after the attacker. If this is a serious worry of yours perhaps once passed we could make an amendment to prohibit such an event from happening." -Resim
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:14 pm
Bratislav wrote:The United Regions wrote:"In no way would nations be forced to get helped in the event of a terrorist attack and as I said there are other ways if members are afraid of allowing fascists or communists on their land likewise many of the other alliances members are not communist or fascists including the alliance my nation is founder of the Christian Liberty Alliance which shares many of the same values as the IFA as well as plenty of the UL's members [I will admit there are some] and most of The Union of Armed nations members. Anyways if a nation were to do such a thing then the IFA as well as I'm sure the alliance it comes from and the other member alliances would condemn said actions and provide support for the attacked nation and go after the attacker. If this is a serious worry of yours perhaps once passed we could make an amendment to prohibit such an event from happening." -Resim
"I put it basically like this.
Scenario one: One terrorist attack in an IFA member-state, IFA members unite to help (Guerro's case)
Scenario two (effect of this pact): Several terrorist attacks, but this time, non-IFA members may (or may not) be willing to help, but furthermore, their intervention (even with approval) might pose security threats for the IFA. Military cooperation with non-allies is tricky and risky.
Basically, it is apparent that with scenario two, we are increasing bad risk. This is what this pact is doing. While it may somehow encourage non-IFA members to help us, in the long run, it increases the bad risk of both increased terror attacks and the fact that you may have a few bad seeds, find their way into intervention in an IFA member state. That risk needs to be minimized. The Guerro crisis shows that IFA is more than capable with dealing with terrorism on its own."
by Western European Republic » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:28 pm
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by Vangaziland » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:29 pm
by Western European Republic » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:31 pm
Vangaziland wrote:"If I may add one last humble thing. Just as in the Turntry conflict, peace has been the Vannish delegation's priority. Our intel reports that a war may be happening between one of these terrorist nations and one of the aforementioned alliances. We find the timing of this treaty a slight bit suspicious. Must we rush to war at this moment? Just like in Turntry, Vangaziland will be a staunch advocate for peace. Perhaps other alliances would be best served to avoid war as well."
He paused for a moment and continued. "Often, someone shows up at our doorstep asking for us to help fight one group or the next. One nation recently came to us telling us to go after the UL. Some alliances want us to go after the fascists. We must ask ourselves why do they want us to intervene in their wars? Hunting out forces is not what we do, unless the IFA is attacked. I wish people had shown a little more restraint before jumping into this vote with little research, just because it sounds good. Laws and pacts and electoral candidates for that matter deserve to be examined, questioned and examined some more. Jumping to aye does not do the law, this council or the IFA any justice. I hope that with the next few resolutions, members might ask questions, debate and study the background before making a decision."
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by Vangaziland » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:42 pm
by The United Regions » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:43 pm
Vangaziland wrote:"If I may add one last humble thing. Just as in the Turntry conflict, peace has been the Vannish delegation's priority. Our intel reports that a war may be happening between one of these terrorist nations and one of the aforementioned alliances. We find the timing of this treaty a slight bit suspicious. Must we rush to war at this moment? Just like in Turntry, Vangaziland will be a staunch advocate for peace. Perhaps other alliances would be best served to avoid war as well."
He paused for a moment and continued. "Often, someone shows up at our doorstep asking for us to help fight one group or the next. One nation recently came to us telling us to go after the UL. Some alliances want us to go after the fascists. We must ask ourselves why do they want us to intervene in their wars? Hunting out forces is not what we do, unless the IFA is attacked. I wish people had shown a little more restraint before jumping into this vote with little research, just because it sounds good. Laws and pacts and electoral candidates for that matter deserve to be examined, questioned and examined some more. Jumping to aye does not do the law, this council or the IFA any justice. I hope that with the next few resolutions, members might ask questions, debate and study the background before making a decision."
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:49 pm
The United Regions wrote:Bratislav wrote:
"I put it basically like this.
Scenario one: One terrorist attack in an IFA member-state, IFA members unite to help (Guerro's case)
Scenario two (effect of this pact): Several terrorist attacks, but this time, non-IFA members may (or may not) be willing to help, but furthermore, their intervention (even with approval) might pose security threats for the IFA. Military cooperation with non-allies is tricky and risky.
Basically, it is apparent that with scenario two, we are increasing bad risk. This is what this pact is doing. While it may somehow encourage non-IFA members to help us, in the long run, it increases the bad risk of both increased terror attacks and the fact that you may have a few bad seeds, find their way into intervention in an IFA member state. That risk needs to be minimized. The Guerro crisis shows that IFA is more than capable with dealing with terrorism on its own."
"I fail to see how the Pact would increase the risk of a terrorist attack, because we would only be adding terrorist organizations that are already a threat to the IFA thus seeing their organization on a list will have no effect of the hatred they already have towards us. It will just increase the amount of support we get at fighting that organization from other alliances." -Resim
Vangaziland wrote:"Here is the question that lingers. If we are not required to assist, what is the point of this pact? It is a little verbose, if all the goal is for us to condemn three terrorist groups. That could have been done easily."
by Vangaziland » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:53 pm
by Giliberafta » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:55 pm
Vangaziland wrote:"Would members of the IFA be okay with a simple condemnation of the 3 terrorist groups? Vangaziland has already done so and we may be gathering intel on its major players. Anyone, and we do mean anyone, with ties to terrorism is under investigation."
by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:58 pm
Vangaziland wrote:"Would members of the IFA be okay with a simple condemnation of the 3 terrorist groups? Vangaziland has already done so and we may be gathering intel on its major players. Anyone, and we do mean anyone, with ties to terrorism is under investigation."
by Western European Republic » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:58 pm
Giliberafta wrote:Vangaziland wrote:"Would members of the IFA be okay with a simple condemnation of the 3 terrorist groups? Vangaziland has already done so and we may be gathering intel on its major players. Anyone, and we do mean anyone, with ties to terrorism is under investigation."
"I believe that would be the best for as of right now."
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by Bratislav » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:59 pm
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