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The People of New Edom v. Admiral Charles Rand (ICC case)

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Mesoland
Senator
 
Posts: 4069
Founded: Feb 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mesoland » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:14 am

"I think a visit to the scene of the crime would be very beneficial to the case, your honour. It would be valuable in helping to collect visual evidence for the prosecution and the defence." Judge Maskafwe said, adding to what Justice Fuler had just ruled.

OOC: Bumper-cars.

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Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:16 pm

"Alright then," replied Justice Hanes. "I have no objection to what Justice Fuler has requested. Please send those agents to do such scouting immediately, and when they are available, we will here their testimony.

"In the mean time, Ms. Baku, can you please continue your questioning of Major Zerchi, or does the prosecution rest? I would like to keep things as speedy as possible."
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

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East Klent
Minister
 
Posts: 3003
Founded: Jan 12, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby East Klent » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:39 pm

As the panel awaited Ms. Baku's response, Justice Fuler wrote a message to Director James Hawthorne of Klent's INTERPOL bureau and handed it to an aide who rushed it to the Justice's office and faxed it.

He then turned his attention back to the case.
IC: The United Republic of Klent, URK, or the United Klentian Republic. Canon Project
Defcon:1 2 3 4 (On Alert) 5

TNN: 6/30/15
The CKDA goes to Congress for ratification and the administration prepares for talks in Batavia.

NEKSE ▲39.63 |NKTSE ▲25.03|GDIE ▲8.45


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Mesoland
Senator
 
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Founded: Feb 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mesoland » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:23 pm

"I'm not finished with him yet." Miss Baku told the court, stepping forward with a mock-puzzled look on her face. "Major Zerchi, if most of the prisoners were later released, then how come several thousand of the arrested remain on the missing persons list? And if you actually released most of them, which I can't quite believe you did, I can assume that the majority of the arrested were found innocent of being terrorists? That your mass arrest was absolutely pointless?"

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New Edom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:28 pm

"Oh, quite the contrary," said Major Zerchi almost primly. "After all, we did find approximately 200 terrorists or terrorist sympathizers in the midst of those we arrested, and nearly 500 others that the other arrests or the terrorists arrested led us to. So it was actually an enormously successful operation that curtailed EIO supporters in Teman, Bara and Haran. As for your other question, I have no idea why they're on the missing persons list. There was this war thing going on, after all."
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Bergnovinaia
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Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:41 pm

"That was a rather indirect reply to Ms. Baku's second inquiry," replied Justice Hanes. "Surely you do have some knowledge of why that occurred? I am not thinking you are being honest at the present."
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

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New Edom
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Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:46 pm

Major Zerchi said, "I just said, your Honour, that I don't know. Once they were released, it was someone else's job to look in on them or whatever, I just was concerned with catching terrorists trying to destroy our state." He didn't really have a lot more to say, but he looked polite and respectful.
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Mesoland
Senator
 
Posts: 4069
Founded: Feb 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mesoland » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:46 pm

"The way the arrests were conducted was unlawful, we've already established that. The preposition that you uncovered several hundred terrorists is all very well, however the fact that there is no evidence of any sort of trial or conviction of these 'terrorists' makes me further believe that the arrested were subjected to human-rights abuses while in your custody. And I can tell you why so many of the arrested remain listed as legally missing; because not a single member of the public has seen any of them alive, or dead for that matter, since that day Admiral Charles Rand instructed you and your colleagues to round up and arrest every Elwe tribes-person in sight. They remain missing because of your non-transparency with the world and the indeed WA. Your excuse that 'nobody asked you' about the Elwe people is unacceptable, and you know it." Miss Baku paused to take a sip of water from the clear plastic cup that sat on her table.

"You have the obligation to inform the world of your actions, and once again, you know it. Little international interest was shown towards the plight of the arrested Elwe people because the war was badly publicised, granted, however you failed to provide even your own country with any sorts of updates on their condition, their trials or their arrest. All of your operations were carried out and executed under wraps and out of sight, with as little publicity and openness as possible. It was cowardly, sneaky and disrespectful and in the end, you've landed your leader in court for it. Maybe if you'd had a little bit of common-sense and some transparency in your operations, everything would have turned out different. The international community, the WA and your own people would be satisfied, the ICC would be satisfied and maybe most likely of all, Admiral Rand would not be sitting here today."

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Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10093
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:06 pm

Justice Butler clears his throat. "What percentage of the Elwe people support the EIO? Is support for the organization nearly universal among the ethnic group, or is the EIO considered to be an extremist organization among the Elwe?"
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:21 pm

"Objection, your honors," Ms. Romo shouted flagrantly spinning her arms as she rose out the chair. "Does Ms. Baku actually have a question for the witness, or does she just wish to continue to badger the witness, Major Zerchi, while accusing the Admiral directly of things that have not yet been sufficiently proven?"

OOC: Since this is a real objection, I will not have Hanes reply to myself.
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

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Mesoland
Senator
 
Posts: 4069
Founded: Feb 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mesoland » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:34 pm

"Sustained. Miss Baku, do you have a question for the witness or can we allow the defence to cross-examine?" Judge Maskafwe spoke up.

"Yes, one more. I apologise for straying away from questioning your honours." Miss Baku said meekly, ignoring Ms. Romo's ill-informed comment. "Major Zerchi, were any of your colleagues forced or blackmailed into carrying out the arrests? Surely some of your familiars would have been uncomfortable with the concept of arresting so many people on little more than a hunch, splitting up families and leaving children without parents?"

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New Edom
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Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:40 pm

Major Zerchi was surprised again by one of the judges asking him a question, and he said to the others, "I'm sorry, I'm not a lawyer, do I have to answer that when it's not a question one of the lawyers asked?"

To Ms. Baku he said, "Not so far as I know. They all followed orders." He privately realized that she had no idea what the Council Police was like. "They're very disciplined and obedient. And it wasn't a hunch, it was based on information and leads."
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

User avatar
Mesoland
Senator
 
Posts: 4069
Founded: Feb 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mesoland » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:42 pm

Judge Maskafwe leaned into his microphone again, a little irate. "This court orders you to answer the question presented to you by Justice Butler."
Last edited by Mesoland on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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New Edom
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Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:50 pm

"Approximately 40-42% of the population of Raith Immel Province support the EIO. 34% support the Anarcho-Naturist Party; 24% the Free Congress Party," replied Zerchi succinctly. "So not really a clear majority, but enough for it to be of concern. And yet I'd like to point out that we didn't arrest all of them." he added with a faint smile.
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

User avatar
Mesoland
Senator
 
Posts: 4069
Founded: Feb 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mesoland » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:53 pm

"You arrested 3,000 Elwe tribes-people, which is why we are in court today among other reasons. You may not have arrested every single Elwe tribes-person, but the 3,000 that you did has landed Admiral Rand in this situation. Now, assuming that the prosecution is finished with this witness, the defence may cross-examine." Judge Maskafwe replied.

OOC: It's 3am and I'm likely not going to make any sense if I keep posting this morning, so I'll be back this evening.
Last edited by Mesoland on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:36 pm

"Very well then, your honor," replied Ms. Romo standing up with her clip-board.

"Major Zerchi..." she said taking a long, dramatic pause. "You have testified that Admiral Rand signed the orders to detain these alleged terrorists, is that not correct? In your professional opinion, setting political opinions aside, were the arrests needed to maintain the security of New Edom? To your knowledge, did Rand's orders and your execution of them violate any international (WA) law or any national legislation on the matter?"
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

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New Edom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:03 pm

"Not to my knowledge," said Major Zerchi. "To the best of my knowledge they were simply requiring us to carry out the arrests in order to uphold the national security of the Allied States of New Edom." He looked a little tired but was still sitting very straight.
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:10 pm

"They being the Admiral, specifically, or someone higher in the chain of command from him?"
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

User avatar
New Edom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:14 pm

"I'm sorry, I mean the orders from the Admiral," said Zerchi, straightening up even more. "The Admiral's orders conveyed that we were to conduct the arrests in order to prevent further acts of terrorism by the EIO."
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:19 pm

"And are you aware if the Admiral was relaying these orders from a higher authority, or simply in his own interest? Do you support these actions? Were they, professionally, needed to prevent terror?"
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

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Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10093
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:53 pm

New Edom wrote:Major Zerchi was surprised again by one of the judges asking him a question, and he said to the others, "I'm sorry, I'm not a lawyer, do I have to answer that when it's not a question one of the lawyers asked?"

"For future reference, the resolution that establishes this Court says, and I quote:

The ICC shall establish such rules and regulations, not conflicting with this resolution, concerning its operations as it sees fit, consistent with the principles of fairness and justice.

"The resolution does not specify whether the Court shall follow the procedures of an adversarial system or an inquisitorial system.

"An adversarial system 'is a legal system where two advocates represent their parties' positions before an impartial person or group of people, usually a jury or judge, who attempt to determine the truth of the case' (Wikipedia).

"An inquisitorial system 'is a legal system where the court or a part of the court is actively involved in investigating the facts of the case, as opposed to an adversarial system where the role of the court is primarily that of an impartial referee between the prosecution and the defense' (Wikipedia).

"While we primarily have been following the procedures of an adversarial system, I do not believe that we should discard the possible advantages that can come from the inquisitorial model. Unless this Court as a whole determines otherwise, I believe that it is completely appropriate for judges (such as myself) to ask questions about facts relevant to the case. It is not the job of the Court to grill either side, but it is our sworn duty to find the truth. If I have an important question on my mind to which the other judges and I want an answer, then I will ask that question; and that question will be answered. This Court must know the facts of the case."

Justice Butler looks around the courtroom. There is a serious expression on his face.

Image


"Although it is not a common practice, judges and jury members (through the judge) in adversarial systems can ask questions.

"May I refer those present to this article: http://law.jrank.org/pages/7663/Inquisitorial-System.html.

"At this time, the Court is free to make use of the benefits of both methods (adversarial and inquisitorial) because it has not decided otherwise. The judges of this Court may act as inquisitors. We may search for the facts.

"If anyone questions this authority again, he will be reprimanded by this Court and a financial penalty may be imposed on him. Do all of you understand this; that is, do you understand not to question the authority of these judges to ask questions again?"

__________________

OOC: If you want to see a lot of examples of judges asking questions in an adversarial system, look no further than the United States Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts.aspx.

The justice who speaks the least is Justice Thomas.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

User avatar
New Edom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23241
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Edom » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:48 am

Rand wrote a quick note to Romo.
In this, a non-lethal situation, Major Zerchi is being informed that he cannot question the system of the court, even though all he was doing was expressing confusion and ignorance. Then how can this court expect him to have questioned my orders, when he knew I was a part of his chain of command during a period of emergency?

Major Zerchi meanwhile said "Ms. Romo, when you are a Major carrying out an operation in which you know an Admiral is part of your chain of command, and you know that the operation is actually his operation, what you're aware of is that the orders came from him. But I also knew that he himself was part of the chain of command--that as Minister of Defense at the time his orders came from the Sovereigns, ultimately. I don't know how they make their decisions, but let's say that the President had been given the executive authority by the King--which was how it was working then--to carry out operations to defend New Edom from the actions of the Elwe Independence Organization--and that the Archbishop gave the matter his spiritual blessing. So then the President gives orders to Rand the way I would a trusted officer under my command: get this done. But I never saw any orders Rand was given. I only saw the orders I was given by Admiral Rand. The orders made sense to me."
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

User avatar
Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:15 am

"So potentially, Rand could have been in instruction to carry out the attacks by someone higher up in the government, is that not correct? Somebody who is concerned with the EIO because of personal threats to their own safety?

"If we are using the precedent that Major Zerchi is innocent of these crimes since he was simply carrying out the orders sent by the Admiral Rand, surely there should be some doubt as to whether or not the Admiral was under the instruction of a superior officer, and thus would fall into the same situation." Ms. Romo paused and walked back to the defense table. "The defense rests, your honors."

"Very good, Ms. Romo," replied Justice Hanes from the bench. "The prosecution may call its last, and final witness."
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

User avatar
Bergnovinaia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7314
Founded: Jul 26, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Bergnovinaia » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:04 pm

"Erm... does the prosecution wish to call it's next witness," stated Justice Hanes while coughing.

OOC: bump
I am pursuing my undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University in Psychology and Spanish. My goal in life is to be a marriage and family counselor. If you have questions about me or my life, just ask!

My girlfriend and I blog about Christian & general marriage, relationship, and dating advice!

NS member since 2009. WA Resolution Author (mostly all repealed), NS sports fanatic.

User avatar
Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10093
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:27 pm

"Does the prosecution wish to continue making its case against Admiral Rand?" asks Justice Butler.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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