1850 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][CLOSED]

[Cymrea]

-snip-

Errr..... ... ... ... .......
You realize that most of the lands you wanted are claimed, and same for Britain, right?

As with the UK, I noticed there were shaded bits on the map, but no official labels. As reservations expire, they could be included in my claim.

[Oscalantine]

Errr..... ... ... ... .......
You realize that most of the lands you wanted are claimed, and same for Britain, right?

As with the UK, I noticed there were shaded bits on the map, but no official labels. As reservations expire, they could be included in my claim.

I said that it may expire... but that's a long wait, mate.

New Zeal in particular... the app is there, just waiting for a few fixes from the French. I'll see what I can do, but unless Applepie gives up his claim, I cannot approve your post ^^;;; sorry dude, I really wish I could approve you. Really nice app and good point of divergence, too... although it will RUIN American Commonwealth application.

Speaking of, he had Guidance as well. Dammit! I am falling behind!!

[Oscalantine]

Well, between 610 and 700, the Roman Empire lost control over all its Middle Eastern and African territories, even if they sometimes took control of Syria back. However, the Romans always kept a good control of Asia Minor, since it was practically the heart of the empire. We could, I don't know, maybe make some short lived Roman vassals around that were defeated by the Mongols? And maybe, the Mongols were defeated somewhere around there by a Neo-Akkadian- Roman force?

"Egypt became a vassal of the Romans. I think I put that in my app. They also won over all of Asia Minor, but the Assyrians still controlled the other parts of the near east. Lots of border skirmishes, perhaps at some point most of the western parts fell, but not Mesopotamia"

That's claven's words. You two seem to be on the same page. Mongol is an issue... but I am assuming that it brushed over like with the Alexander.

[Cymrea]

As with the UK, I noticed there were shaded bits on the map, but no official labels. As reservations expire, they could be included in my claim.

I said that it may expire... but that's a long wait, mate.

New Zeal in particular... the app is there, just waiting for a few fixes from the French. I'll see what I can do, but unless Applepie gives up his claim, I cannot approve your post ^^;;; sorry dude, I really wish I could approve you. Really nice app and good point of divergence, too... although it will RUIN American Commonwealth application.

Speaking of, he had Guidance as well. Dammit! I am falling behind!!

No worries, I'll keep peeking in on this thread and watching for expired apps and potential claims. If there's a nation you really need someone to play, let me know and I'll consider them too.

[Oscalantine]

Anyhow... gtg T^T. It is almost 2 here, and I need sleep. Will try to make maps and guidance... along with solving problems associated with that a major priority tmw.

Thanks everyone! Cya laterz!!!!

[Tracian Empire]

Well, between 610 and 700, the Roman Empire lost control over all its Middle Eastern and African territories, even if they sometimes took control of Syria back. However, the Romans always kept a good control of Asia Minor, since it was practically the heart of the empire. We could, I don't know, maybe make some short lived Roman vassals around that were defeated by the Mongols? And maybe, the Mongols were defeated somewhere around there by a Neo-Akkadian- Roman force?

"Egypt became a vassal of the Romans. I think I put that in my app. They also won over all of Asia Minor, but the Assyrians still controlled the other parts of the near east. Lots of border skirmishes, perhaps at some point most of the western parts fell, but not Mesopotamia"

That's claven's words. You two seem to be on the same page. Mongol is an issue... but I am assuming that it brushed over like with the Alexander.

Alright, that's actually really good. It fits my history and idea.

Of course, if Egypt was a Roman vassal at a certain point, you know what follows. Surprise Anschuss. Roman colonies in Africa. That place is empty now, right?

[Kosovo12345]

so am i accepted?

[Oscalantine]

I said that it may expire... but that's a long wait, mate.

New Zeal in particular... the app is there, just waiting for a few fixes from the French. I'll see what I can do, but unless Applepie gives up his claim, I cannot approve your post ^^;;; sorry dude, I really wish I could approve you. Really nice app and good point of divergence, too... although it will RUIN American Commonwealth application.

Speaking of, he had Guidance as well. Dammit! I am falling behind!!

No worries, I'll keep peeking in on this thread and watching for expired apps and potential claims. If there's a nation you really need someone to play, let me know and I'll consider them too.

Awesome. If that isn't an incentive for others to keep going online, I don't know what is!! I'll let you know if any places that needs filling... assuming you want Europe only.

[Suekiva]

I think Crimea should annex Russia.

[Oscalantine]

"Egypt became a vassal of the Romans. I think I put that in my app. They also won over all of Asia Minor, but the Assyrians still controlled the other parts of the near east. Lots of border skirmishes, perhaps at some point most of the western parts fell, but not Mesopotamia"

That's claven's words. You two seem to be on the same page. Mongol is an issue... but I am assuming that it brushed over like with the Alexander.

Alright, that's actually really good. It fits my history and idea.

Of course, if Egypt was a Roman vassal at a certain point, you know what follows. Surprise Anschuss. Roman colonies in Africa. That place is empty now, right?

North Africa? Yee. 'tis empty. I am assuming that you will eat up Egypt when Scramble for Africa occurs.... wonder how farther down south?

[Cymrea]

No worries, I'll keep peeking in on this thread and watching for expired apps and potential claims. If there's a nation you really need someone to play, let me know and I'll consider them too.

Awesome. If that isn't an incentive for others to keep going online, I don't know what is!! I'll let you know if any places that needs filling... assuming you want Europe only.

I'm not limited to Europe. I'll consider pretty much anywhere.

[Oscalantine]

so am i accepted?

Err... I remember saying that you needed to fix something... were those fixed?

[Tracian Empire]

Alright, that's actually really good. It fits my history and idea.

Of course, if Egypt was a Roman vassal at a certain point, you know what follows. Surprise Anschuss. Roman colonies in Africa. That place is empty now, right?

North Africa? Yee. 'tis empty. I am assuming that you will eat up Egypt when Scramble for Africa occurs.... wonder how farther down south?

Since I can't get to the Atlantic Ocean, I will try to continue to south as much, following the Nile. I am planning to establish a powerful presence there, and use it as a possible base for any future colonies. Who knows, maybe the Romans will do the Suez Canal.

[Benuty]

North Africa? Yee. 'tis empty. I am assuming that you will eat up Egypt when Scramble for Africa occurs.... wonder how farther down south?

Since I can't get to the Atlantic Ocean, I will try to continue to south as much, following the Nile. I am planning to establish a powerful presence there, and use it as a possible base for any future colonies. Who knows, maybe the Romans will do the Suez Canal.

Well the latin equivalent of the Suez anyway .

[Tracian Empire]

Since I can't get to the Atlantic Ocean, I will try to continue to south as much, following the Nile. I am planning to establish a powerful presence there, and use it as a possible base for any future colonies. Who knows, maybe the Romans will do the Suez Canal.

Well the latin equivalent of the Suez anyway .

Of course. Roman engineering stronk. Our Suez Canal will be better then the real life Suez Canal.

[Of the Quendi]

There was no Portugal, there will never be a Portugal, as that culture effectively never had a chance to divert from it's Proto-Hispanic and Visogothic roots in any respectable number. Considering my history goes back before formation, and Portugal's existence could completely derail my pattern, I will use my Guidance if nessicery to insure that or counter any statement to the contrary.

Actually there was a Portucale but thats neither here nor there. Every application is made impossible or improbably by at least one other except possibly the one with the earliest POD. If the Assyrian application has a POD in which the Achemenid Empire collapses after the death of Darius I. The ramifications of this is enormous. It would most certainly mean that everything taking place after 486 BC will happen very differently from RL, meaning that all of us who use post-486 BC POD's are basing them on events that could have never occurred. To take your application for example what is the odds that in the thousand year period between Darius's death and Muhammed's birth there would have not been even the tiniest change to the life of just one of the thousands of ancestors of Muhammed? Because even the tiniest change would butterfly Muhammed away resulting in Islam never being invented and Al-Andalus by extension never happening. Since the chance of of there being no change during that thousand year period is nonexistent then I think its best we do as the OP recommends and not think too much about it. If not then every application except the one with the earliest POD can essentially just be scrapped as being impossible.

It is all well said and done. I understand that a lot of things would have changed. However... for the sake of the apps, I am still allowing Brazilian Empire to exist. For all its worth, Portugal people, if not the kingdom of, existed. And since Catholicism existed somewhat before as well, there are points to be made that somehow the Portugal people managed to escape into the new world away from Islamic oppression in the peninsula.

Feel free to use Guidance if you so wish. However, my stands on Brazilian Empire is final. Especially since he is so close to app being accepted, I feel like it would be punishing Quendi when he has done so much already. However, future apps incoming will HAVE to follow your Guidance, so there won't be Spain or anything of sort in the future... should you use your Guidance.

Speaking of my apps pending application is there any remaining problems with it?

[Kosovo12345]

so am i accepted?

Err... I remember saying that you needed to fix something... were those fixed?

I added more history, mostly on how i conquered Texas

[Suekiva]

Err... I remember saying that you needed to fix something... were those fixed?

I added more history, mostly on how i conquered Texas

His post asking you to edit was at 9:11 pm on the 27th. Your last edit on your app was at 1:20 pm the same day.

[Princess Kenny]

Full Nation Name : Russian Kingdom
Majority/Official Culture : [[What your people identify themselves with… French, Chinese, Iroquois, Touareg, etc.]] Russian
Territorial Core : I know it's outdated, pls forgib. Dark Green: Russia] | Green: Vassal States (Including Siberia as part of Russia, now that I look at Golden Khanate's history)
Territorial Claim : [[OPTIONAL]] Russia (duh), All vassal states, Balctic States, Finland.
Capital City :Moscow
Population : 50 million (I guess?)

Government Type : Absolute Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : Very expansionist and fairly militaristic.
Government Focus : The economy and industry remains the top priority as Russia is now capable of sustaining a industry, only a few factories have been constructed, and those which have are very basic and provide poor goods. And with the expansion into Siberia, Russia is a vast land, so infrastructure is highly prioritized. Although Russia received a huge blow after the defeat in the Great Northern War, the defeat of Napoleon allowed Russian security and proved the military to effective. And to obtain claimed territories and defend Russia against other regional powers such as Germany (Hansa or whatever, I know) and Scandinavia, the military remains one of the top spenders in order to modernize and adapt to the new world. Religion's power in the Russian government is slowly decaying, yet remains a high focus in major cities.
Head of State : Ivan Barbibsky
Head of Government : Ivan Barbibsky
Government Description : The Russian Tsar (the monarch) has absolute rule over the nation and VETO power. The Tsar can dismiss and appoint governors for regions and cities, the governors each year elect a new Councillors reporting for each city, which can by approved or dismissed by the Tsar at will. Laws are passed through the system, yet the Tsar's VETO can be rendered void if enough votes from the governors and citizens. The Tsar can take full control of the military and is the first and final voice when appointing new laws, actions, and warfare. The struggle for power within the system can lead to coup d'etats in some cases, although secret services can easily destroy the threat, and reforms are bound to improve the system. The Tsar is also unofficially mentioned as "Emperor" to more associate Russia with the West.

Majority/State Religion : [[OPTIONAL]] Russian Orthodox (Christianity)
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]] The Orthodox church gained less and less power over the time once the Mongols ruled, although once the Mongols were expelled, the church regained authority as state religion and began to forcefully expel any Mongol missionaries or religious leaders, however, with Russia steadily modernizing in form, the Church is loosing most of their power overtime.

Economic Ideologies : Mostly capitalist and mercantilism, with state-run systems such as water, the military, and healthcare. (Of course healthcare didn't exist in modern form, but it wasn't allowed to be operated privately unless granted approval.)
Major Production : Wheat, Bread and other agricultural products. Furs, and minerals, and fish. Industrialized goods are minor, but are steadily growing as Russia becomes more industrial.
Economic Description : The economy is backwards and outdated and remains mostly powered by human labor, but the introduction of animals into the society (mentioned in the history) allowed for rapid growth, the economy is industrialized slowly, and is attempting to obtain new men capable of boosting Russian industry in exchange for land. Serfdom was also abolished in 1841.

Army Strength : (I won't go into exact numbers but) The Russian Army is huge, and has lots of reserves of manpower to back it up. And with Russia having a vast landscape, expanding deep into Russia can stretch enemy forces thin, allowing for a counter-attack, especially in the winter. The Russian army is also capable of sustaining artillery.
Army Weakness : While it achieved more modern elements, the Russian army is still outdated and poorly equipped and trained, and only a handful of leaders are well trained and experienced.
Naval Strength : The Russian navy is surprisingly large for a nation that doesn't require a one, and the ships are very durable. This is to secure waters important for trade, and is decently trained.
Naval Weakness : The Russian navy is often overlooked and outdated, it's also rarely used and has little men actually capable of serving in the navy.
Further Military Description : The Russian military continues to be a very strong and often underestimated power. With around 300,000 troops (Because you know, Britain alone has 750,000, lel.) And far more in reserves, it's easily capable of outnumbering and crushing enemy forces once they have stretched thin through the Russian buffer zones. However, it's outdated status makes the Russian army weaker in wars which do not involve the entire nation at risk, and it often takes huge causalities.

National Goals : Obtain Finland and annex vassal states, further industrialize and develop the nation, attempt to lower poverty and secure Russian strength and interests. Continue 'Russiaification'
National Issues : To fix economic issues and modernize Russia's system economically and politically.
National Figures of Interest : There probably would be, espically in the military and some in the economy and the government perhaps, but I'm terrible at names.
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] Expand the frontier, grow Russia's size and influence.

History : [[Can be in paragraph or bulletpoint timeline.]]
(All events take place after the collapse of the actual Mongol empire)
(1300-1400) Mongol rulers continue to maintain their rule over Russia and over the Russian princes and city states, with the Mongol's infulence over Russia declining, several princes challenge the rule.
(1380) The battle of Kulikovo is a failure, although it causes an outrage across the Russian population, protesting against the Mongol overlords.
(1400-1450) A "divide and conquer" tactic is implemented, although the Mongols loose power in the process, a wedge is nudged across Russia, creating different sub-ethnicities regions to divide Russia and make it easier to rule over. The plan is a huge success after the assassination of several Russian rulers and princes.
(1450) Ivan III launches several programs against the now divided Russia against the Mongols, and inflicting heavy losses against the Mongols.
(1460) Moscow continues to rise and gains more autonomy as local princes obtain more power.
(1463) After the fall of several Mongol-controlled lands, Moscow is sacked and is confiscated. Ivan the III flees in exile to Constantinople.
(1480) The divide and conquer tactic continues with great success in areas far north and far south of Moscow, yet the local princes begin to experience tariffs after Mongol rulers receive a shortage of their wealth. Religious policies are also implemented, this makes Orthodox decay in power.
(1486) Ivan the III returns and defeats the Mongols at Dubna, this backfires however as local princes of the local regions hold on to their wealth.
(1500) The majority of Mongol rulers withdraw, yet Russia's princes refuse to co-operate with Moscow and form their own city states, becoming massive trade city states in Eastern Europe.
(1520) Sub-ethnic lines are fully implemented as many Russian royal families take place, the rise of Moscow leaves for many struggles over the throne as Moscow becomes the dominant power over the city states.
(1530) A Muscovite invasion occurs across the Russian frontier, forming the "Kingdom of Muscovy", however after confiscating Mongol lands left over, a civil war occurs, fracturing and collapsing the new nation. This further divides Russia, and allows for a gateway for Mongols to re-take power for 2 years before being overthrown.
(1540) Heavy tensions emerged between local Russian royal families, the 'Dyansty' (just call it that for now) Tula achieves most power over the Russian city states.
(1560) Russia continues to fracture as Muscovite armies enter into Novgorod, integrating the kingdom and annexing several city states. This leads once again to a stronger Moscow.
(1570) Muscovy shrinks after several wars with local city states and ethnic tensions.
(1570-1610) During this time however, Russia manages to modernize in system, adopting new forms of warfare and economics, aswell as new technologies. This leads to a golden age.
(1610-1650) Under the Muscovite monarch Alexander, the grand conquest across Russia begins to tear down sub-ethnic lines, and remaining Mongol authority is dissolved as Orthodox becomes the state religion.
(1660) Russia is eventually confederated, yet the new governmental system collapses after 5 months. The Russian Tsar is adopted.
(1663-1670) Internal conflicts occur for disputes over the throne, the "War of the Birds", eventually results the monarchs of Moscow to be in power.
(1675) The war between the Mongols begin.
(1680) Russia finally begins to exist as a single entity as it expands into Siberia, and defeats the Mongols in battle, this greatly rises Russian prestige and identity. Local princes are officially disbanded and abdicated. This marks the beginning of a unified Russia.
(1685) Russia begins to expand east, with wars against the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, the eastern expansion of Russia begins.
(1690) Mass reformations in the Russian economy allow for easier workforce after a Russian merchant introduces animal labor to the large scale.
(1700-1721) The Russian military had little mass conflict aside from the wars with the Mongols, after failing to capture Finland and defeated by Swedish armies, yet still proving success against the Polish forces.
(1721) Russia accepts defeat, which negitvealy impacts Russian prestige and causes heavy unrest among civilians.
(1725) A new governmental system and new royal family is adopted after the current monarch is overthrown in a massive revolt, and the defeated-Russian military is crushed.
(1730) Russian forces begin to be rebuilt, and Russia recovers as it expands into Central Asia and the economy improves, and military technology.
(1740) Russian expansion into Ukraine and Belarus occurs, yet local Ukrainian rulers reject their new overlords, but are eventually taken down in 1750.
(1740-1800) After a long period of expansion and reformation, and some wars and skirmishes to the east, industrialization begins to occur slowly, yet is a hotspot of interest.
(1802) Russian "Kingdom" is adopted.
(1814) Napoleon is defeated and pushed out of Moscow, marking a huge victory for Russia and restoring the nationalistic pride lost during the loss against Sweden.
(1816) Expansion into the Caucasus occurs, Russiaification is ineffective within the region, secret authorities crush rebellions.
(1820) After the partitions of Poland and the defeat of Napoleon, the Russian empire struggles to maintain strong influence over newly conquered areas. As such, autonomous vassal states across the nation are formed with the "Treaty of Omsk". While integrating the people overtime politically and ethnically, known as "Russiaification"
(1830) Polish rebellion is defeated, Central Asian vassal states are formed after several guerrilla wars in the region, obtaining great autonomy.
(1845) Russia finally begins to starts to maintain their influence over vassal states, leading the train to integration.
(1846) Discovery of Alaska.
(1850) Present day. Industralization is still going steadily, the Russian army has evolved over time, and so has the nation.


Comparison Points – Political : 3 [[How much national focus is gone into administrating the government, i.e. espionage, royal marriages, counter-intelligence, etc.]]
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 1 [[How much national focus is gone into religious and or cultural aspects, i.e. asking for excommunication, call for crusade, soviet revolution in other nations, etc.]]
Comparison Points – Economy : 3 [[How much national focus is gone into economic matters, i.e. embargo/blockade efficiency, lasting through war of attrition, simply feeding your people better, etc.]]
Comparison Points – Military : 3 [[How much national focus is gone into military, i.e. discipline, morale, better tacticians/generals, etc.]]
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : 10 /10

[Western Imperial Union]

Err... I remember saying that you needed to fix something... were those fixed?

I added more history, mostly on how i conquered Texas

I think we will have trouble you and me, Cause i got a hankering to free the Apache tribes lands and make them a new part of the confederation.

and someone said colonizing oregon was an option I am here to say nope to that...

All aggressive colonization of Confederation lands will be met by the fierce opposition from the 8th Irregular Cavalry Regiment made up of immigrants from eastern north america, Black and White

[Tracian Empire]

Russia, you're scaring me. Stay away from the territory if the glorious Roman Empire and my friend, Taurica.

[New Granadeseret]

There was no Portugal, there will never be a Portugal, as that culture effectively never had a chance to divert from it's Proto-Hispanic and Visogothic roots in any respectable number. Considering my history goes back before formation, and Portugal's existence could completely derail my pattern, I will use my Guidance if nessicery to insure that or counter any statement to the contrary.

Actually there was a Portucale but thats neither here nor there. Every application is made impossible or improbably by at least one other except possibly the one with the earliest POD. If the Assyrian application has a POD in which the Achemenid Empire collapses after the death of Darius I. The ramifications of this is enormous. It would most certainly mean that everything taking place after 486 BC will happen very differently from RL, meaning that all of us who use post-486 BC POD's are basing them on events that could have never occurred. To take your application for example what is the odds that in the thousand year period between Darius's death and Muhammed's birth there would have not been even the tiniest change to the life of just one of the thousands of ancestors of Muhammed? Because even the tiniest change would butterfly Muhammed away resulting in Islam never being invented and Al-Andalus by extension never happening. Since the chance of of there being no change during that thousand year period is nonexistent then I think its best we do as the OP recommends and not think too much about it. If not then every application except the one with the earliest POD can essentially just be scrapped as being impossible.

It is all well said and done. I understand that a lot of things would have changed. However... for the sake of the apps, I am still allowing Brazilian Empire to exist. For all its worth, Portugal people, if not the kingdom of, existed. And since Catholicism existed somewhat before as well, there are points to be made that somehow the Portugal people managed to escape into the new world away from Islamic oppression in the peninsula.

Feel free to use Guidance if you so wish. However, my stands on Brazilian Empire is final. Especially since he is so close to app being accepted, I feel like it would be punishing Quendi when he has done so much already. However, future apps incoming will HAVE to follow your Guidance, so there won't be Spain or anything of sort in the future... should you use your Guidance.

Speaking of my apps pending application is there any remaining problems with it?

Quendi, I'm really not in the right state to get into another extended debate with you and you certainly have merit, but just know I have an over 5000 word history and am really, really not pleased to have to refit half of it to accomidate the slice off of 1/4 of my country and almost it's entire Atlantic coast for a period substantial enough to reach the Age of Colonization. It also has to do with the fact that I already have a group of Scots giving me the middle finger in the new world and aren't happy with yet another nation doing so.


I agree with to the OP's word without reservation, but suffice to say I'm frustrated with it.

[Benuty]

Actually there was a Portucale but thats neither here nor there. Every application is made impossible or improbably by at least one other except possibly the one with the earliest POD. If the Assyrian application has a POD in which the Achemenid Empire collapses after the death of Darius I. The ramifications of this is enormous. It would most certainly mean that everything taking place after 486 BC will happen very differently from RL, meaning that all of us who use post-486 BC POD's are basing them on events that could have never occurred. To take your application for example what is the odds that in the thousand year period between Darius's death and Muhammed's birth there would have not been even the tiniest change to the life of just one of the thousands of ancestors of Muhammed? Because even the tiniest change would butterfly Muhammed away resulting in Islam never being invented and Al-Andalus by extension never happening. Since the chance of of there being no change during that thousand year period is nonexistent then I think its best we do as the OP recommends and not think too much about it. If not then every application except the one with the earliest POD can essentially just be scrapped as being impossible.

Speaking of my apps pending application is there any remaining problems with it?

Quendi, I'm really not in the right state to get into another extended debate with you and you certainly have merit, but just know I have an over 5000 word history and am really, really not pleased to have to refit half of it to accomidate the slice off of 1/4 of my country and almost it's entire Atlantic coast for a period substantial enough to reach the Age of Colonization. It also has to do with the fact that I already have a group of Scots giving me the middle finger in the new world and aren't happy with yet another nation doing so.


I agree with to the OP's word without reservation, but suffice to say I'm frustrated with it.

Who exactly would they be?

[Second Helghan Empire]

So Dis Russia app...Hmmm Ima Probably need some friends, cause well



I just see this as becoming a war front, even though I would rather trade with my neighbors.

Also russia in you history you say you expanded east when taking Poland and Lithuania, please fix that as it should say west.

[Benuty]

So Dis Russia app...Hmmm Ima Probably need some friends, cause well

(Image)

I just see this as becoming a war front, even though I would rather trade with my neighbors.

Also russia in you history you say you expanded east when taking Poland and Lithuania, please fix that as it should say west.

Well considering all three nations in that map contain a piece of Poland you also have the potential for a rebellion by nationalists. Of course that area could be turned into a meat grinder for an invading army if you played your cards right.