Ashes of an Empire RP (OOC, Invite-Only)

by **Alleniana** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:28 am

Jamessonia wrote:
Alleniana wrote:Either of the other two would be a much better alternative, even if they aren't great.
I put antagonist, but let's be honest, in this era, who has even HEARD of the Danes?

I think I'll have antagonist too. But I won't like it. Lol, my people think they're holy missionaries and everyone else thinks they're horrible.

I don';t assume it has to be THAT bad; after all, what is someone is north of you?

by **Of the Quendi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:41 am

Great Franconia and Verana wrote:Population (historic population in the year 476):35 Million? I could not get a reliable estimate

In 565, when the Eastern Empire was considerably larger than in 476, wikipedia estimates the population at 26 million. 20 million for the smaller territories of 476 would be my guesstimate. EDIT: Never mind.

Alouite wrote:Population (historic population in the year 476): 14 million (Estimate)

The population of Roman Spain is estimated at 5 million, I seriously doubt the Visigothic Kingdom would have a population greater than that.

Reatra wrote:Population: 800,000

Reatra wrote:The Danes had that bit of white on Scandinavia, I'll lower it to 800,000 as I know that Sweden had 2 million in 877.

I very seriously doubt any credible source will put the population of the Swedes in 877 (when they ruled only a fraction of modern day Sweden) anywhere near 2,000,000 a number the modern era Kingdom of Sweden didn't reach till 1770. I doubt that the Swedes numbered more than perhaps 300,000.

Alleniana wrote:Population (historic population in the year 476): I dunno, say, 500,000? Extremely hard to find sources

Indeed it is but a half million sounds a bit high. The population of Denmark in 800 is estimated at 900,000 and you control half of the territory there included at a time when, presumably, the population was lower. My guess would be closer to 200,000.

Legital wrote:I've done the research and a lot of this information I've found has been more or less rough in specifics, though that can go for a lot of people I suppose for this time period (Especially since these are the Saxons before the creation of the Anglo-Saxon group). Everything in the application below (and later IC) will be information I've come to find as reliable, and if anyone has any conflicting ideas, do let me know. The most difficult things to establish are the population and military size, as I've come across information telling me the Saxons declared any warband over forty individuals an army, though I've seen casualty listings of the Saxons as high as five thousand dead or captured.

Also, as a prior note that I need to say, I'll be detailing most of the IC through a chieftain who will eventually, in time of war, become the war chieftain. I say this because the Saxons had no unified ruler, and in order for me to properly handle the Saxons (without a low chieftain making the laws of all the Saxons), I need to make sure everyone knows this. The character I will use will be the de facto Saxon leader, you can say.

Nation name: Saxony (Specifically Old Saxony, also known as Continental Saxony)
Population (historic population in the year 476): Approximately 950,000-1,200,000

Calling your nation Saxony would imply that there existed an actual country so Saxons, indicating the tribal status would probably be more befitting.

As for the population it sounds very high. The territory controlled by the Saxons is largely conterminous with the present day German State of Lower Saxony which covers about 50,000 square kilometer. In other words you would need a population density of 20/km2 which would be considerably more than that of the Roman Empire under Trajan. That the saxons should be able to maintain such a population sounds highly unlikely, even when considering that they where migrating beyond their natural borders.

Alleniana wrote:Nice to see you
I'm currently doing the map, any suggestions for Persia? I thought purple would be nice, but that's the Byzantines (Byzantines deserve purple, honestly)

Green perhaps.

by **Alleniana** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:08 am

Of the Quendi wrote:
Great Franconia and Verana wrote:Population (historic population in the year 476):35 Million? I could not get a reliable estimate

In 565, when the Eastern Empire was considerably larger than in 476, wikipedia estimates the population at 26 million. 20 million for the smaller territories of 476 would be my guesstimate. EDIT: Never mind.
Alouite wrote:Population (historic population in the year 476): 14 million (Estimate)

The population of Roman Spain is estimated at 5 million, I seriously doubt the Visigothic Kingdom would have a population greater than that.
Reatra wrote:Population: 800,000

Reatra wrote:The Danes had that bit of white on Scandinavia, I'll lower it to 800,000 as I know that Sweden had 2 million in 877.

I very seriously doubt any credible source will put the population of the Swedes in 877 (when they ruled only a fraction of modern day Sweden) anywhere near 2,000,000 a number the modern era Kingdom of Sweden didn't reach till 1770. I doubt that the Swedes numbered more than perhaps 300,000.
Alleniana wrote:Population (historic population in the year 476): I dunno, say, 500,000? Extremely hard to find sources

Indeed it is but a half million sounds a bit high. The population of Denmark in 800 is estimated at 900,000 and you control half of the territory there included at a time when, presumably, the population was lower. My guess would be closer to 200,000.
Legital wrote:I've done the research and a lot of this information I've found has been more or less rough in specifics, though that can go for a lot of people I suppose for this time period (Especially since these are the Saxons before the creation of the Anglo-Saxon group). Everything in the application below (and later IC) will be information I've come to find as reliable, and if anyone has any conflicting ideas, do let me know. The most difficult things to establish are the population and military size, as I've come across information telling me the Saxons declared any warband over forty individuals an army, though I've seen casualty listings of the Saxons as high as five thousand dead or captured.

Also, as a prior note that I need to say, I'll be detailing most of the IC through a chieftain who will eventually, in time of war, become the war chieftain. I say this because the Saxons had no unified ruler, and in order for me to properly handle the Saxons (without a low chieftain making the laws of all the Saxons), I need to make sure everyone knows this. The character I will use will be the de facto Saxon leader, you can say.

Nation name: Saxony (Specifically Old Saxony, also known as Continental Saxony)
Population (historic population in the year 476): Approximately 950,000-1,200,000

Calling your nation Saxony would imply that there existed an actual country so Saxons, indicating the tribal status would probably be more befitting.

As for the population it sounds very high. The territory controlled by the Saxons is largely conterminous with the present day German State of Lower Saxony which covers about 50,000 square kilometer. In other words you would need a population density of 20/km2 which would be considerably more than that of the Roman Empire under Trajan. That the saxons should be able to maintain such a population sounds highly unlikely, even when considering that they where migrating beyond their natural borders.
Alleniana wrote:Nice to see you
I'm currently doing the map, any suggestions for Persia? I thought purple would be nice, but that's the Byzantines (Byzantines deserve purple, honestly)

Green perhaps.

I am pretty much in agreement with what you have said there; most people have pops too high, though I am sure Timothia will be able to fix them all.
Thanks for the suggestion about pop, I'll probably edit in morning.
I did it in yellow, because contrast, and gold

by **Vredlandia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:23 am

Nation name: Aesti
Nation-type: Nation-Tribe
Population: 50.000
Military size : No steady military, only some hunters that could immediately take action
Land claimed:

Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation: None yet
Current ruler: Ottar the Old
Primary religion: Baltic Earth religion
Other religions: None
Primary culture: Celtic-Germanic
Other accepted cultures: Everything is accepted
Main industry: Amber trade
Primary imports: Iron stuff
Military organization: Universal Levies
Government type:Tribal Monarchy
Heir and potential claimants: Ottar the Younger, Wulfric the Strong
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Other nations
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: We're peaceful and wouldn't do harm to anybody
Describe you nations' recent history: Aesti is only a small tribal monarchy in the East of Europe. In the last years it has shown no sgns of much activity to other nations, but that's mainly because the only form of contact they have got to others is trade. They're mostly dependant on fishery, hunting, farming and their amber trade.
Describe any present allies or enemies: /
Positive modifier: Potential Power
Negative modifier: Obscure
Notes:

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:16 am

Here's my list of changes to the first couple of apps. If I didn't list yours, DON'T PANIC! I saw it and I will check it. I'm trying to actually look up the population of every nation and compare it to yours so that everything is accurate. Also, I added one new positive and one new negative to every nation type's list of modifiers: check those out. Ok, here are the amendments I would make on these several apps so far:

I like it, I don't think there's anything I would change. Accepted.

Also accepted, excellent job. I'm impressed. If you want to replace your modifier(s) with one of my new ones, your welcome to it. Other than that everything is perfect.

Almost have it, just a couple changes. I'd make the educated guess that the population was closer to 500,000-550,000. The Vandals were a tribe of 80,000 people who overtook a province with around half a million people in it. Counting casualties, I'd say 550,000 people would be fine. That, of course, drops military numbers accordingly to 27,500 in wartime and 5,500 in peacetime. The ruler of the Vandals in 476 was Genceric. Finally, the Vandals hated the Visigoths (interesting story, the Visigoths mutilated the daughter of Genceric and the Vandals out of Spain) and I thought you may want to know that. Other than that, nice app. Like I said earlier, if you want to change your modifiers, you can feel free.

Alouite wrote:Nation name: The Visigothic Kingdom
Nation-type: Empire
Population (historic population in the year 476): 14 million (Estimate)
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type):280,000 (at peace), 560,000
(With conscription)
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): South-Western France and all of Iberia besides Northern Portugal and Galicia
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler): Flag :
(Image)

Coat of Arms:
([url=http://wa3.www.jcyl.es/web/jcyl/binarios/880/897/blasón400.jpg]Image[/url])

Current ruler: King Euric I
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): Arian Christians
Other religions: Catholics, other Christian groups, and Judiasm
Primary culture: Gothic
Other accepted cultures: Roman, Gaulic, Iberian, and Lombardi
Main industry: Farming, Wines, and some major mines in the Pyrenees
Primary imports: Salt, Silk, Spices, and Marble
Military organization: Imperial Armies
Government type: Empire
Heir and potential claimants: Alaric II
Biggest factor threatening your nation:It's current weak diplomacy with its neighbors
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: It mixes the best of Roman Tactics with the Best of Gothic tactics and with an influence from the Gallic and Iberian tactics
Describe you nations' recent history: After their sacking of Rome in 410, the Visigoths moved into Iberia and South Western Gaulia. After the Roman Empire fell many years later the Visigothic people were finally recognized as their own empire. They established a Roman based government with a Visigothic royal house and retained power in the region since long before Rome fell. They still retain their claim on Rome which angers the controlling nation of Odacer and the Eastern Romans who also lay claim to it. They also seem to threaten the Suebi and the Vascon tribes in northern Iberia.
Describe any present allies or enemies: Though it has positive relations with the Franks and other Gothic nations, it has terrible relations with other Iberian nations, Odacer, and the Eastern Romans.
Positive modifier:+ Up-and-coming - your Empire is still growing and conquering: grants claims on all neighboring nations
Negative modifier:- Inglorious - other nations are embarrassed to even deal with you: negotiations often stalemate because you are a disgraced people not worthy of many people's attention
Notes:

Not bad, this should be interesting. I didn't know much about the Visigoths off the top of my head, so I had to research them extensively. They're a really fascinating people, aren't they?

Couple changes here: as Quendi said, the population of all of Roman Spain was 5 million. You don't quite own all of Roman Spain, but you own part of southern France, so 4-5 million will be fine as your population. If I were you, I'd split the difference and go with 4.5 million. That changes your military as well, of course, to about 200,000 wartime. Also, Visigoths were still just an over-sized tribe. The imperial administration is something like the Roman, Persians, or byzantine model. You might be able to achieve that eventually, but not quite yet. That also changes the military organization to either Comitatus or Universal Levies. Finally, you should note how you forced the Vandals out of Spain and hate them with a passion

That's pretty much it, like I've told everyone else, check out the new modifiers to see if you would change anything. Thanks for the app!

Ahhh, I like this one. It looks nice, just have to trim the population down a bit (somewhere in the 200,000-300,000 ballpark). From a player standpoint, what made you decide to go with the Swedes? Nothing wrong with it, I actually really like it, I'm just curious.

Great Franconia and Verana wrote:Nation name: The Eastern Roman Empire (The Byzantine Empire)
Nation-type:Empire
Population (historic population in the year 476):35 Million? I could not get a reliable estimate
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type):350,000 Regulars, 1,750,000 in Wartime. Calculations may be wrong
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476):Controls Thrace and Greece, along with southern Dalmatia, along with Anatolia, Syria, Palestine, and Egypt
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler
):(Image)

Current ruler: Emperor Zeno
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian):Catholic
Other religions:Arian
Primary culture:Roman
Other accepted cultures: Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Egyptian.
Main industry: Imported Silk Silk and textiles, simply trade itself was a massive earner
Primary imports: Silk and spices, many things from the Far East
Military organization: Imperial Armies
Government type: Absolutist Autocracy
Heir and potential claimants: Anastasius, the Empress's Favourite and respected palace official, Flavius Longinus, Zeno's brother
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Long borders, enemies around every corner, and the instability of just having come out of a civil war.
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: Large, well trained army, vastly wealthy, effective imperial bureaucracy
Describe you nations' recent history:In 395, Theodosius I bequeathed the imperial office jointly to his sons: Arcadius in the East and Honorius in the West, once again dividing Imperial administration. In the 5th century the Eastern part of the empire was largely spared the difficulties faced by the West—due in part to a more established urban culture and greater financial resources, which allowed it to placate invaders with tribute and pay foreign mercenaries. This success allowed Theodosius II to focus on the codification of the Roman law and the further fortification of the walls of Constantinople, which left the city impervious to most attacks until 1204.

To fend off the Huns, Theodosius had to pay an enormous annual tribute to Attila. His successor, Marcian, refused to continue to pay the tribute, but Attila had already diverted his attention to the West. After his death in 453, the Hunnic Empire collapsed, and many of the remaining Huns were often hired as mercenaries by Constantinople.

After the fall of Attila, the Eastern Empire enjoyed a period of peace, while the Western Empire deteriorated in continuing migration and expansion by Germanic nations (its end is usually dated in 476 when the Germanic Roman general Odoacer deposed the titular Western Emperor Romulus Augustulus)

Describe any present allies or enemies: Enemies are most barbarians, and especially the Sassanid Empire in Persia. Settled barbarians, like the Vandals, Visigoths, and Odoacer's Kingdom, are more ambivalent
Positive modifier:Supreme Administartion
Negative modifier:Crumbling
Notes: Glory to Rome!

Pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the more in-depth history, I always like those. The only thing would be population, it's somewhere between 16 million and 20 million. I'll give you the same advice I gave the Visigoths: split the difference and we'll all be happy. You may want to look at the new negative Empire modifier, I created it with the Byzantines in mind. But that's it, you put in a solid app. Way to go *gives high five*

The Jonathanian States wrote:Sorry,but I think I'll quit.
First of all,as I noted already to the OP per tg,the era isn't quite the most interesting,for me at least.While this wasn't a main reason,it also didn't contribute to me staying.
Then,the reservations.
Damn reservations we're made before even the opening post came.
That closed a few of the nations I would've been rather interested,especially compared to the rest of this age,before I even could app for them.
And it wasn't even announced.
I'd also express me not really liking "engineered" rps,in which different nations,which different strenghts and weaknesses are tried to be simplified and made equal. Which would then,for all cases make this not an historical,but alternative-historical or semi-historical,and by that conclusion it isn't really limited to plausability.
I could also talk about the modifiers themselves,or the conclusion of time,but those are minor.
[/rant]
Now,I do wish you all a fun and succesfull rp,and will say that it isn't anything personal to either of you regardless of being (co-)OP or not.
Good Luck,
tJS.

I understand and don't hold it against you. I wish you the best of luck elsewhere, and you're welcome to return if you change your mind.

I know there are a couple apps I haven't addressed yet, I'm so sorry. I'll check those out right away and put something up here within the next couple hours. you guys are just as important, I promise you, I just haven't quite gotten to you yet because I'm super busy. Also, I set the standards for population growth and posted them in the OP, I think those should be accurate for late-ancient, early-medieval Europe. If you have any questions, fire away. Finally, is anyone opposed to one page IC=three months? I think that will be the final thing we go with as long as no one has anything against it.

by **Of the Quendi** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:40 am

Timothia wrote:
Of the Quendi wrote:Nation name: Ērānshahr
Nation-type: Empire
Population (historic population in the year 476): 30 million
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): 250,000
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): The land on the map
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler):
Current ruler: Peroz I (unfortunately)
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): Zoroastrianism
Other religions: Nestorianism, Manichaeism, Judaism, Buddhism, other Christians
Primary culture: Persian
Other accepted cultures: Parthian, Arabian, Greek, Jewish, Armenian, Indian, numerous other
Main industry: Unknown
Primary imports: Unknown, Paper, silk and spices where all imported from the east for export to the west
Military organization: Mixed
Government type: Absolute monarchy
Heir and potential claimants: Hormizd III and Qabād
Biggest factor threatening your nation: The Hepthalites
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: Dominant power in the Middle East
Describe you nations' recent history: The Sassanid Empire has been struggling with various internal succession strives, seven years of famine and war with the Hepthalites and a number of other internal and external troubles
Describe any present allies or enemies: Hepthalites and Armenians are enemies of the Sassanids
Positive modifier: Superior military
Negative modifier: Crumbling (for the time being)
Notes:

Also accepted, excellent job. I'm impressed. If you want to replace your modifier(s) with one of my new ones, your welcome to it. Other than that everything is perfect.

In that case I will change for "crumbling" to "Target of Barbarians"

Timothia wrote:
Emilio Aguinaldo wrote:Nation name: Vandalic Kingdom of Africa
Nation-type: Nation-tribe?
Population (historic population in the year 476): 7.5,000,000
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): 325,000 at most
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): What the Vandals had back then.
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler):
Current ruler: Vercingetorix
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian):Catholic
Other religions: Zoroastrian
Primary culture: Germanic
Other accepted cultures: Carthaginian, Berber, and Mauritanian...uh...Bedouin (just for the hell of it.)
Main industry: Wheat, Grain, Barley
Primary imports: Iron
Military organization: Comitatus
Government type: Monarchy
Heir and potential claimants: Uhhh, yes?
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Eastern Roman Empire
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: TONS OF FOOD
Describe you nations' recent history: We descended upon the Romans with the power of a thousand suns and conquered Africa
Describe any present allies or enemies: The Goths and Visigoths would like us. The Eastern Roman Empire, and Moors might not.
Positive modifier: Comitatus
Negative modifier: Antagonist
Notes: Uhm, hi.

Almost have it, just a couple changes. I'd make the educated guess that the population was closer to 500,000-550,000. The Vandals were a tribe of 80,000 people who overtook a province with around half a million people in it. Counting casualties, I'd say 550,000 people would be fine. That, of course, drops military numbers accordingly to 27,500 in wartime and 5,500 in peacetime. The ruler of the Vandals in 476 was Genceric. Finally, the Vandals hated the Visigoths (interesting story, the Visigoths mutilated the daughter of Genceric and the Vandals out of Spain) and I thought you may want to know that. Other than that, nice app. Like I said earlier, if you want to change your modifiers, you can feel free.

I think you are underestimating Africa a little here. At its height the province probably had at least two million inhabitants. Add to that the population of Sicily (which was huge), Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearics and the territories held by the Vandals could have had a population ahead of 4 million. No doubt the population would have declined considerably under Vandal rule but not to such a low I think.

There is also the Battle of Cape Bon to consider. It took place just eight years before this RP and according to wikipedia 280,000 people fought on the Vandal side. Though that number sound so outlandish it is hard to take seriously it would seem to suggest that the Vandal kingdom was a force to be reckoned with.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:57 am

Of the Quendi wrote:I think you are underestimating Africa a little here. At its height the province probably had at least two million inhabitants. Add to that the population of Sicily (which was huge), Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearics and the territories held by the Vandals could have had a population ahead of 4 million. No doubt the population would have declined considerably under Vandal rule but not to such a low I think.

There is also the Battle of Cape Bon to consider. It took place just eight years before this RP and according to wikipedia 280,000 people fought on the Vandal side. Though that number sound so outlandish it is hard to take seriously it would seem to suggest that the Vandal kingdom was a force to be reckoned with.

Excellent point, thanks for pointing that out. Sorry Vandals

When I did the research for their population, I came up with 2 million people in Roman Africa. I took Roman Africa to mean all of northern Africa and Egypt (why I did this, I have no clue), so I divided it up mentally and gave Vandal Africa 500,000 people. Of course, by Africa, they meant the province of Africa (this), which completely throws off my numbers. And I completely forgot about Sicily, and they would indeed have had a huge population. While I reject that there were 280,000 Vandals (it seems very exaggerated to me), I do have to acknowledge that there were probably more than 80,000 initially.

In short, you're right, and the population should be something along the lines of 3.5-4.5 million. My bad.

by **Thanatttynia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:16 am

I can't be the Visigoths ):
So I'll apply for Burgundy instead; my app should be up soon.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:19 am

Great Franconia and Verana wrote:Without further ado:
Nation name: The Danes
Nation-type: Nation-tribe, but probably a bit more settled than the others...?
Population (historic population in the year 476): I dunno, say, 500,000? Extremely hard to find sources
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): Comitatus, so 2,500 standing
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): The Danish Islands, plus large parts of Halland & Skane, as well as a large blob in southern Jutland
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation: We are barbarians, N.A.
Current ruler: I can't find anything even in MYTHOLOGY, so can I just pull a Lother I out of air?
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): An early form of Norse paganism
Other religions: Probably some random other paganisms, like perhaps animism and whatnot
Primary culture: Danish!
Other accepted cultures: Jutish, Swedish (because nobody like the Geats?), maybe even Anglic in some ways.
Main industry: Eh... probably fishing, though lumber, raiding, trading and subsistence craftsmanship and agriculture come into it too
Primary imports: A few trinkets from the civilized world, grain, meat, furs, other mainland materials, gold, perhaps
Military organization: Comitatus
Government type: Tribal chieftain-king
Heir and potential claimants: Few; perhaps the Jutes? The king has no son nor wife
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Big fracking barbarians everywhere stomping! D :
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: We are bigger fracking barbarians! : D
Describe you nations' recent history: The Danish people sort of coagulated into a tribal-sort of kingdom thingy... and that's it. :/ Settled Halland, expanded and got a little stronger/denser in pop, went to war with Jutland. Not much else. We are a very young, barbaric peoples.
Describe any present allies or enemies: Jutland probably hates us, Swedes and Geats probably don't like us either, and I doubt Angles are our best friends.
Positive modifier: Comitatus (but I already have this, and the other two are absurd... )
Negative modifier: Antagonist, but who cares, we smack them
Notes: How? We can't, we haven't developed literacy.

I feel like I smiley spammed...

Almost perfect, I would just change the nation type to city-state. I really need to change what that is called: it's meant to be a smaller tribe, not literally a city-state. The Danes would be a perfect example of this type of nation; not a major power, but still relevant. This would also give you more fitting modifiers. I'd drop the population to maybe 300,000 or so, but I don't have any numbers on that region at that time, so I'll let you go with what you feel is reasonable. I can't find a ruler from that period, either, so Lother I will work fine.

Legital wrote:I've done the research and a lot of this information I've found has been more or less rough in specifics, though that can go for a lot of people I suppose for this time period (Especially since these are the Saxons before the creation of the Anglo-Saxon group). Everything in the application below (and later IC) will be information I've come to find as reliable, and if anyone has any conflicting ideas, do let me know. The most difficult things to establish are the population and military size, as I've come across information telling me the Saxons declared any warband over forty individuals an army, though I've seen casualty listings of the Saxons as high as five thousand dead or captured.

Also, as a prior note that I need to say, I'll be detailing most of the IC through a chieftain who will eventually, in time of war, become the war chieftain. I say this because the Saxons had no unified ruler, and in order for me to properly handle the Saxons (without a low chieftain making the laws of all the Saxons), I need to make sure everyone knows this. The character I will use will be the de facto Saxon leader, you can say.

Nation name: Saxony (Specifically Old Saxony, also known as Continental Saxony)
Nation-type: Nation-Tribe
Population (historic population in the year 476): Approximately 950,000-1,200,000
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): The most warriors that could be feasibly fielded would be around the 100,000 range (according to the 5% military size for wartime according to the military organization section on the OP, though I believe for the Saxons it is possible this could extend to possibly around 200,000 if the max population is to be considered at the highest suggested realistically for the Saxon tribes) On a moments notice, a force of 12,000 could be ready, again, if the highest population is considered, from all the Saxon tribes in continental Saxony (also this is to say the message was spread faster than it likely would be).

Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): Westphalia, Angria, and Eastphalia. This map may be clearer than the second And: This gives a better idea of size I believe
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler): The Saxons are a confederation with no single ruler. Without records, I believe this is up to imagination within reason.
Current ruler: Chief Godwin of House Hrodgar
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): German Paganism, with specific Saxon customs.
Other religions: None, though I assume other German paganism is accepted.
Primary culture: Saxish
Other accepted cultures: Other Germanic cultures.
Main industry: Agriculture, carpentry
Primary imports: N/A
Military organization: Comitatus
Government type: Tribal Confederation, each tribe chieftain meets once a year at a set location to discuss anything and everything of concern.
Heir and potential claimants: N/A
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Christianity, the Franks, generally weak diplomacy
Biggest factor in favor of your nation: Powerful and determined Saxon people
Describe you nations' recent history: Fighting amongst other German tribes has been a mainstay in regards to recent history, along with raiding along the English Channel and greater sea area. The fall of Rome provides just as many opportunities as it does provide harmful repercussions.
Describe any present allies or enemies: As it stands, there are no real allies. However, in regards to enemies, the Franks are an ancient and long time foe of the Saxons.
Positive modifier: Comitatus - German tribe with substantial military organization: allows a 5% military
Negative modifier: Antagonist - Your people are seen as the evil invaders from the north, and are hated by everyone: you fail in diplomatic relations with other nations more often than you succeed
Notes: Pretty much everything I said at the very top of this post, as long as the fact that a lot of the information I had to work with was difficult, to say the least. There will likely be more specific information to come later.

This looks really good, nice job. I can tell you put time into this, and I appreciate that. The population is pretty high, but if you could source it (or explain how you came to that conclusion), I think it would be decent. As Quendi pointed out, it makes for a very dense population compared to it's contemporaries,so you will probably have to notch it down. But everything else looks fantastic, good work.

As far as beginnings go, this one is about as strong as anyone could ask. Like I told the Danes, the better choice for you might be city-state (there's that stupid name again, any suggestions I can change it to?). The modifiers for them are more fitting for your nation. Other than that, though, I like it. I want to point this out to you because I think it would make an interesting storyline: the druids have a oral poem that predicts that a mighty man would someday come and teach the Irish people, having them chant "so be it" after everything he says. St. Patrick seemingly fulfilled this prophecy, and there is religious strife between the druids and the Catholics. That is a true story, and I think you might like to use it in your RP. Maybe not, either way...

I'm sorry if I seem to be really demanding, I just want to make sure that everything works well. You guys all submitted really good apps, I just need to alter a couple so it's more fun for everyone. If you find any holes in my numbers or any problems with my conclusions, bring them up. I want this to be as accurate and enjoyable as possible. Special thanks to Quendi for holding me to my standards, and to Alleniana for working on the map. And a big high five to everyone who has posted so far, I can't wait to start up the IC!

by **Reatra** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:27 am

I just liked the idea of being isolated for awhile. Sweden is a cool place to try to unify.

Also, is 400,000 okay?

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:37 am

Reatra wrote:I just liked the idea of being isolated for awhile. Sweden is a cool place to try to unify.

Also, is 400,000 okay?

Call it at 350,000?

by **Legital** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:49 am

Of the Quendi wrote:
Legital wrote:I've done the research and a lot of this information I've found has been more or less rough in specifics, though that can go for a lot of people I suppose for this time period (Especially since these are the Saxons before the creation of the Anglo-Saxon group). Everything in the application below (and later IC) will be information I've come to find as reliable, and if anyone has any conflicting ideas, do let me know. The most difficult things to establish are the population and military size, as I've come across information telling me the Saxons declared any warband over forty individuals an army, though I've seen casualty listings of the Saxons as high as five thousand dead or captured.

Also, as a prior note that I need to say, I'll be detailing most of the IC through a chieftain who will eventually, in time of war, become the war chieftain. I say this because the Saxons had no unified ruler, and in order for me to properly handle the Saxons (without a low chieftain making the laws of all the Saxons), I need to make sure everyone knows this. The character I will use will be the de facto Saxon leader, you can say.

Nation name: Saxony (Specifically Old Saxony, also known as Continental Saxony)
Population (historic population in the year 476): Approximately 950,000-1,200,000

Calling your nation Saxony would imply that there existed an actual country so Saxons, indicating the tribal status would probably be more befitting.

As for the population it sounds very high. The territory controlled by the Saxons is largely conterminous with the present day German State of Lower Saxony which covers about 50,000 square kilometer. In other words you would need a population density of 20/km2 which would be considerably more than that of the Roman Empire under Trajan. That the saxons should be able to maintain such a population sounds highly unlikely, even when considering that they where migrating beyond their natural borders.

I call the area Saxony because that is what I've come to see it referred to as by later Saxons and Anglo-Saxons. Not because it is a unified state or nation, but as an area of territory where the Saxon people reside. I've seen it called Saxony, Old Saxony (at later times) Saxonia, Sax-Germania, and probably a few more to name. The oldest terms being Saxony and Saxonia.

The population/military has been adjusted.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:55 am

Legital wrote:
I've done the research and a lot of this information I've found has been more or less rough in specifics, though that can go for a lot of people I suppose for this time period (Especially since these are the Saxons before the creation of the Anglo-Saxon group). Everything in the application below (and later IC) will be information I've come to find as reliable, and if anyone has any conflicting ideas, do let me know. The most difficult things to establish are the population and military size, as I've come across information telling me the Saxons declared any warband over forty individuals an army, though I've seen casualty listings of the Saxons as high as five thousand dead or captured.

Also, as a prior note that I need to say, I'll be detailing most of the IC through a chieftain who will eventually, in time of war, become the war chieftain. I say this because the Saxons had no unified ruler, and in order for me to properly handle the Saxons (without a low chieftain making the laws of all the Saxons), I need to make sure everyone knows this. The character I will use will be the de facto Saxon leader, you can say.

Edit 1: Adjustment to population and military.

Nation name: Saxony (Specifically Old Saxony, also known as Continental Saxony)
Nation-type: Nation-Tribe
Population (historic population in the year 476): Approximately 550,000
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): Approximately 30,000 wartime, 6,000 peacetime.
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): Westphalia, Angria, and Eastphalia. This map may be clearer than the second And: This gives a better idea of size I believe
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler): The Saxons are a confederation with no single ruler. Without records, I believe this is up to imagination within reason.
Current ruler: Chief Godwin of House Hrodgar
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): German Paganism, with specific Saxon customs.
Other religions: None, though I assume other German paganism is accepted.
Primary culture: Saxish
Other accepted cultures: Other Germanic cultures.
Main industry: Agriculture, carpentry
Primary imports: N/A
Military organization: Comitatus
Government type: Tribal Confederation, each tribe chieftain meets once a year at a set location to discuss anything and everything of concern.
Heir and potential claimants: N/A
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Christianity, the Franks, generally weak diplomacy
Biggest factor in favor of your nation: Powerful and determined Saxon people
Describe you nations' recent history: Fighting amongst other German tribes has been a mainstay in regards to recent history, along with raiding along the English Channel and greater sea area. The fall of Rome provides just as many opportunities as it does provide harmful repercussions.
Describe any present allies or enemies: As it stands, there are no real allies. However, in regards to enemies, the Franks are an ancient and long time foe of the Saxons.
Positive modifier: Comitatus - German tribe with substantial military organization: allows a 5% military
Negative modifier: Antagonist - Your people are seen as the evil invaders from the north, and are hated by everyone: you fail in diplomatic relations with other nations more often than you succeed
Notes: Pretty much everything I said at the very top of this post, as long as the fact that a lot of the information I had to work with was difficult, to say the least. There will likely be more specific information to come later.

Very well done, and accepted as well.

by **Legital** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:11 pm

Timothia wrote:
Legital wrote:
I've done the research and a lot of this information I've found has been more or less rough in specifics, though that can go for a lot of people I suppose for this time period (Especially since these are the Saxons before the creation of the Anglo-Saxon group). Everything in the application below (and later IC) will be information I've come to find as reliable, and if anyone has any conflicting ideas, do let me know. The most difficult things to establish are the population and military size, as I've come across information telling me the Saxons declared any warband over forty individuals an army, though I've seen casualty listings of the Saxons as high as five thousand dead or captured.

Also, as a prior note that I need to say, I'll be detailing most of the IC through a chieftain who will eventually, in time of war, become the war chieftain. I say this because the Saxons had no unified ruler, and in order for me to properly handle the Saxons (without a low chieftain making the laws of all the Saxons), I need to make sure everyone knows this. The character I will use will be the de facto Saxon leader, you can say.

Edit 1: Adjustment to population and military.

Nation name: Saxony (Specifically Old Saxony, also known as Continental Saxony)
Nation-type: Nation-Tribe
Population (historic population in the year 476): Approximately 550,000
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): Approximately 30,000 wartime, 6,000 peacetime.
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): Westphalia, Angria, and Eastphalia. This map may be clearer than the second And: This gives a better idea of size I believe
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler): The Saxons are a confederation with no single ruler. Without records, I believe this is up to imagination within reason.
Current ruler: Chief Godwin of House Hrodgar
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): German Paganism, with specific Saxon customs.
Other religions: None, though I assume other German paganism is accepted.
Primary culture: Saxish
Other accepted cultures: Other Germanic cultures.
Main industry: Agriculture, carpentry
Primary imports: N/A
Military organization: Comitatus
Government type: Tribal Confederation, each tribe chieftain meets once a year at a set location to discuss anything and everything of concern.
Heir and potential claimants: N/A
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Christianity, the Franks, generally weak diplomacy
Biggest factor in favor of your nation: Powerful and determined Saxon people
Describe you nations' recent history: Fighting amongst other German tribes has been a mainstay in regards to recent history, along with raiding along the English Channel and greater sea area. The fall of Rome provides just as many opportunities as it does provide harmful repercussions.
Describe any present allies or enemies: As it stands, there are no real allies. However, in regards to enemies, the Franks are an ancient and long time foe of the Saxons.
Positive modifier: Comitatus - German tribe with substantial military organization: allows a 5% military
Negative modifier: Antagonist - Your people are seen as the evil invaders from the north, and are hated by everyone: you fail in diplomatic relations with other nations more often than you succeed
Notes: Pretty much everything I said at the very top of this post, as long as the fact that a lot of the information I had to work with was difficult, to say the least. There will likely be more specific information to come later.

Very well done, and accepted as well.

Thank you, looking forward to it all.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:13 pm

Legital wrote:
Timothia wrote:Very well done, and accepted as well.

Thank you, looking forward to it all.

So am I, y'all have no idea how much.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:35 pm

Does anyone mind if I submit my own app? I'll have the co-ops look it over to make sure everything checks out.

by **Jamessonia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:45 pm

Timothia wrote:Does anyone mind if I submit my own app? I'll have the co-ops look it over to make sure everything checks out.

I don't. Also, my app on page 4 is now complete

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:51 pm

Accepted.

by **Jamessonia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:59 pm

Timothia wrote:
Jamessonia wrote:The beginnings of my app:

Nation name: Kingdom of Munster
Nation-type: Nation-Tribe
Population (historic population in the year 476): I don't have hard data, around 50,000?
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type):
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476):
(Image)

Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler):
(Image)

Current ruler: Óengus mac Nad Froích Eóganachta
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): Catholic
Other religions: Irish/Gaelic pagan
Primary culture: Irish Gaelic
Other accepted cultures: None
Main industry: Agriculture and fishing
Primary imports: Metals
Military organization: Universal Levies
Government type: Tribal Kingdom
Heir and potential claimants: Feidlimid mac Óengusa Eóganachta
Biggest factor threatening your nation: Other Irish nations on the borders, and clans inside the kingdom.
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: They are one of the most prominent Irish kingdoms, and arguably the strongest.
Describe you nations' recent history: In the early centuries after the birth of Christ, the area known as Munster was populated by the Iverni tribe, a predecessor of the Érainn tribe. Ptolemy mentioned this tribe in his 2nd century Geographia, and said that the Iverni occupied the extreme southwest of the island. Several legendary kings ruled the region, many with supposedly supernatural abilities. Since then, the Eóganachta dynasty has ruled Munster.
Describe any present allies or enemies: None
Positive modifier: Protector of the Faith
Negative modifier: Antagonist
Notes:

Accepted.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:02 pm

Jamessonia wrote:
Timothia wrote:

Accepted.

by **Thanatttynia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:15 pm

Nation name: Kingdom of the Burgundians.
Nation-type: Nation tribe;
Population (historic population in the year 476): I'd guess around 1 250 000.
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type): 12 500.
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): Here.
Flag: Here.
Current ruler: Gundobad I.
Primary religion: Mixed Christianity.
Other religions: Small outposts of paganism in the mountainous north.
Primary culture: Burgundian.
Other accepted cultures: Other Germanic cultures.
Main industry: Agriculture, trading, iron mining.
Primary imports: Textiles, copper.
Military organization: Comitatus.
Government type: Hereditary absolute monarchy.
Heir and potential claimants: Sigismund, son of the King.
Biggest factor threatening your nation: The hungry Visigoths to the East, and the all too eager Catholic missionaries from Rome.
Biggest factor in favour of you nation: Organised and loyal nobles and people.
Describe you nations' recent history: One moment, I'll do this in detail tonight.
Describe any present allies or enemies: None so far.
Positive modifier: Potential Power.
Negative modifier: None really make sense to me, could someone suggest one, please?
Notes:

by **Alouite** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:14 pm

Timothia wrote:I had an event to go to this evening, and I came back to this! This is awesome guys, thanks for lighting up this thread. You seriously made my day, and I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back right away when you guys were discussing things. I will check out all the apps you guys submitted and have them approved by tomorrow (it's almost 11 here, and I have to go to bed). The map is being worked on. Like I said earlier, the map(s) out right now aren't definitive: they aren't meant to have the final say. They are just meant to give you guys an idea of how everything looks. Besides, I expect you to research your nation enough to figure the borders out on your own. Now, to answer a couple of questions and comments.

Legital wrote:Things are really looking good, though my only gripe is the time passage system. I'm not much of a fan having twenty-four hours equal two weeks. I think perhaps a page could dictate being two weeks time. That keeps players flexible and able to post based on the pages, not an actual twenty-four hour period. Say someone misses a day or two and comes back to four weeks passed. They'll get bogged down the more time they miss as they need to incorporate more into their post to detail the time they had missed before. Unless when the IC starts and several pages go up a day, then the above is a general idea of where I sit with the time passage.

I agree, I'm not sold on the twenty four hour period equalling a certain amount of IC time. I'll change it if there is an alternative that most of us can agree on. Thanks for bringing that up.

Great Franconia and Verana wrote:I think you might want to ask the OP if proclaiming yourself Emperor is ok, just in case

When your kingdom reaches the point that I think it deserves Empire status, I (or one of the co-ops) will grant it. You can use imperial terminology whenever you want, but it will all be lip service until you have the land, cities and armies to back it up. An Empire is in the fashion of Alexander the Great, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Romans, or the Huns. Later examples like Spain, England, Russia and Germany show that an empire is no small title: it's a big deal. To sum it up, you can aesthetically refer to yourself as an Empire, but you will have a lot to prove before you will be granted that status.

Emilio Aguinaldo wrote:The Negative modifiers outweigh the Positive ones.

I'm sorry you feel this way. Do you have any other suggestions to change that? If so, I'd be willing to add/subtract to make this more playable.

Alouite wrote:Emilio, Verana, Reatra, Timothia, damn this really is the best thread I've seen.

Thanks, I hope this pans out like I want it to.

Alright I get your point about the Empire thing, but am I accepted?

by **Reatra** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:19 pm

WHEN DO WE GETZ DA IC?

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:38 pm

Alouite wrote:
Timothia wrote:I had an event to go to this evening, and I came back to this! This is awesome guys, thanks for lighting up this thread. You seriously made my day, and I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back right away when you guys were discussing things. I will check out all the apps you guys submitted and have them approved by tomorrow (it's almost 11 here, and I have to go to bed). The map is being worked on. Like I said earlier, the map(s) out right now aren't definitive: they aren't meant to have the final say. They are just meant to give you guys an idea of how everything looks. Besides, I expect you to research your nation enough to figure the borders out on your own. Now, to answer a couple of questions and comments.

I agree, I'm not sold on the twenty four hour period equalling a certain amount of IC time. I'll change it if there is an alternative that most of us can agree on. Thanks for bringing that up.

When your kingdom reaches the point that I think it deserves Empire status, I (or one of the co-ops) will grant it. You can use imperial terminology whenever you want, but it will all be lip service until you have the land, cities and armies to back it up. An Empire is in the fashion of Alexander the Great, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Romans, or the Huns. Later examples like Spain, England, Russia and Germany show that an empire is no small title: it's a big deal. To sum it up, you can aesthetically refer to yourself as an Empire, but you will have a lot to prove before you will be granted that status.

I'm sorry you feel this way. Do you have any other suggestions to change that? If so, I'd be willing to add/subtract to make this more playable.

Thanks, I hope this pans out like I want it to.

Alright I get your point about the Empire thing, but am I accepted?

Ahem *points to the quote below* couple adjustments

Timothia wrote:
Alouite wrote:Nation name: The Visigothic Kingdom
Nation-type: Empire
Population (historic population in the year 476): 14 million (Estimate)
Military size (see the details for what is allowed in your nation-type):280,000 (at peace), 560,000
(With conscription)
Land claimed (historic sizes in the year 476): South-Western France and all of Iberia besides Northern Portugal and Galicia
Flag, banner, badge, and/or seal of your nation (however many you have available, please put in spoiler): Flag :
(Image)

Coat of Arms:
([url=http://wa3.www.jcyl.es/web/jcyl/binarios/880/897/blasón400.jpg]Image[/url])

Current ruler: King Euric I
Primary religion (note the difference between Catholic and Arian): Arian Christians
Other religions: Catholics, other Christian groups, and Judiasm
Primary culture: Gothic
Other accepted cultures: Roman, Gaulic, Iberian, and Lombardi
Main industry: Farming, Wines, and some major mines in the Pyrenees
Primary imports: Salt, Silk, Spices, and Marble
Military organization: Imperial Armies
Government type: Empire
Heir and potential claimants: Alaric II
Biggest factor threatening your nation:It's current weak diplomacy with its neighbors
Biggest factor in favor of you nation: It mixes the best of Roman Tactics with the Best of Gothic tactics and with an influence from the Gallic and Iberian tactics
Describe you nations' recent history: After their sacking of Rome in 410, the Visigoths moved into Iberia and South Western Gaulia. After the Roman Empire fell many years later the Visigothic people were finally recognized as their own empire. They established a Roman based government with a Visigothic royal house and retained power in the region since long before Rome fell. They still retain their claim on Rome which angers the controlling nation of Odacer and the Eastern Romans who also lay claim to it. They also seem to threaten the Suebi and the Vascon tribes in northern Iberia.
Describe any present allies or enemies: Though it has positive relations with the Franks and other Gothic nations, it has terrible relations with other Iberian nations, Odacer, and the Eastern Romans.
Positive modifier:+ Up-and-coming - your Empire is still growing and conquering: grants claims on all neighboring nations
Negative modifier:- Inglorious - other nations are embarrassed to even deal with you: negotiations often stalemate because you are a disgraced people not worthy of many people's attention
Notes:
Not bad, this should be interesting. I didn't know much about the Visigoths off the top of my head, so I had to research them extensively. They're a really fascinating people, aren't they?

Couple changes here: as Quendi said, the population of all of Roman Spain was 5 million. You don't quite own all of Roman Spain, but you own part of southern France, so 4-5 million will be fine as your population. If I were you, I'd split the difference and go with 4.5 million. That changes your military as well, of course, to about 200,000 wartime. Also, Visigoths were still just an over-sized tribe. The imperial administration is something like the Roman, Persians, or byzantine model. You might be able to achieve that eventually, but not quite yet. That also changes the military organization to either Comitatus or Universal Levies. Finally, you should note how you forced the Vandals out of Spain and hate them with a passion That's pretty much it, like I've told everyone else, check out the new modifiers to see if you would change anything. Thanks for the app!

After those little changes, yes, you'll be accepted.

by **Timothia** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:40 pm

Reatra wrote:WHEN DO WE GETZ DA IC?

I have seven apps right now, eight with the latest one, and nine with mine. At ten accepted apps, I'll start the IC. Sound good?

Ashes of an Empire RP (OOC, Invite-Only)

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