Excalibur Squadron OOC Thread

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Mebbe....

As long as you don't suggest that the squadron gets matching tattoos...

all I can say is that when/if he gets back, Page is going to have some interesting team-building ideas

And Tiger, in response to your plea for more RP-related stuff on the thread, may I propose another round of character trivia?

FFS YES
I tried to start some a few weeks back, but nobody bit. By all means, go for it.

As far as potential story ideas, I'll TG you later.

Yay! TG anticipation!

[Goram]

Was Neville Chamberlain really a weak and terrible leader?

Not read the article fully, or all that closely, thus far, but I can give you the answer.

Nope.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Was Neville Chamberlain really a weak and terrible leader?

Not read the article fully, or all that closely, thus far, but I can give you the answer.

Nope.

I think Neville isn't as bad as history has made him out to be. He was essentially the prisoner of policies made before him that let Germany off the hook in 1933 and 1935, so that the British and French were screwed over in 1938.

[Morrdh]

Was Neville Chamberlain really a weak and terrible leader?

Not read the article fully, or all that closely, thus far, but I can give you the answer.

Nope.

I think Neville isn't as bad as history has made him out to be. He was essentially the prisoner of policies made before him that let Germany off the hook in 1933 and 1935, so that the British and French were screwed over in 1938.

Also probably realized just how woefully unprepared Britain was for war at the time, the extra year brought gave us time to start getting our act sorted at least regarding the Home Defences which paid of in 1940.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

I think Neville isn't as bad as history has made him out to be. He was essentially the prisoner of policies made before him that let Germany off the hook in 1933 and 1935, so that the British and French were screwed over in 1938.

Also probably realized just how woefully unprepared Britain was for war at the time, the extra year brought gave us time to start getting our act sorted at least regarding the Home Defences which paid of in 1940.

I've actually seen some arguments about this.
The fact is, however unprepared Britain was for war, Germany was as bad off (if not worse). The span of time from september 1938-september 1939 was absolutely crucial for the luftwaffe and especially the Panzer arm. Not to mention it gave the Germans another year unmolested to churn out U-Boats and work on their bigger ships, while the Royal Navy was still pretty much supreme.
War still would've been bad, but it would have been bad all around.

[Goram]

I think Neville isn't as bad as history has made him out to be. He was essentially the prisoner of policies made before him that let Germany off the hook in 1933 and 1935, so that the British and French were screwed over in 1938.

Also probably realized just how woefully unprepared Britain was for war at the time, the extra year brought gave us time to start getting our act sorted at least regarding the Home Defences which paid of in 1940.

It's also worth noting that the politicians of the 1930's had all lived through the Great War and had been old enough to remember it. Indeed, some of them (not Chamberlain, mind) served in it. It's always been my assumption that, amongst other things (mostly what you two have said), he wanted to avoid slaughter on the industrial scale at any costs.

Perhaps the wrong decision but he certainly stuck to what he believed in and that seems like an admirable trait in a politician. I believe there's a quote associated to him, which I can't remember exactly, from the day after war broke out. It goes along the lines of

"My life's work has been wasted"

In regards to what Tiger was saying, there's another quote attributed to Churchill (again, can't remember it entirely, but I think it's in the link as it happens) where he specifically states that he's going to paint Chamberlain in a negative light.

[Goram]

Also probably realized just how woefully unprepared Britain was for war at the time, the extra year brought gave us time to start getting our act sorted at least regarding the Home Defences which paid of in 1940.

I've actually seen some arguments about this.
The fact is, however unprepared Britain was for war, Germany was as bad off (if not worse). The span of time from september 1938-september 1939 was absolutely crucial for the luftwaffe and especially the Panzer arm. Not to mention it gave the Germans another year unmolested to churn out U-Boats and work on their bigger ships, while the Royal Navy was still pretty much supreme.
War still would've been bad, but it would have been bad all around.

You know, the funny thing is, the German Army in May 1940 wasn't exactly the all beating force people make it out to be. Especially the Panzers.

Tactical air power, tactical prowess and communications were the name of the game for the Germans.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Also probably realized just how woefully unprepared Britain was for war at the time, the extra year brought gave us time to start getting our act sorted at least regarding the Home Defences which paid of in 1940.

It's also worth noting that the politicians of the 1930's had all lived through the Great War and had been old enough to remember it. Indeed, some of them (not Chamberlain, mind) served in it. It's always been my assumption that, amongst other things (mostly what you two have said), he wanted to avoid slaughter on the industrial scale at any costs.

Perhaps the wrong decision but he certainly stuck to what he believed in and that seems like an admirable trait in a politician. I believe there's a quote associated to him, which I can't remember exactly, from the day after war broke out. It goes along the lines of

"My life's work has been wasted"

In regards to what Tiger was saying, there's another quote attributed to Churchill (again, can't remember it entirely, but I think it's in the link as it happens) where he specifically states that he's going to paint Chamberlain in a negative light.

If you look at the record of Churchill's entire career, he's not the kind of guy who would respect somebody for making the practical, undramatic, easily-interpreted-as-weak decision instead of confronting evil head-on.

I've actually seen some arguments about this.
The fact is, however unprepared Britain was for war, Germany was as bad off (if not worse). The span of time from september 1938-september 1939 was absolutely crucial for the luftwaffe and especially the Panzer arm. Not to mention it gave the Germans another year unmolested to churn out U-Boats and work on their bigger ships, while the Royal Navy was still pretty much supreme.
War still would've been bad, but it would have been bad all around.

You know, the funny thing is, the German Army in May 1940 wasn't exactly the all beating force people make it out to be. Especially the Panzers.

Tactical air power, tactical prowess and communications were the name of the game for the Germans.

Indeed. They arguably still weren't ready for a full-on war even then, to say nothing of the unforgivably crappy nature of most German tanks at that point.
The Luftwaffe took something like 20-25% losses in Poland, and the Panzer arm was almost devastated in France through breakdowns and actual combat. Motorization, much less mechanization, had barely started even on the limited scale the Germans were envisioning by the time Poland rolled around, and it hadn't progressed too well by the time of France as well.

[Goram]

It's also worth noting that the politicians of the 1930's had all lived through the Great War and had been old enough to remember it. Indeed, some of them (not Chamberlain, mind) served in it. It's always been my assumption that, amongst other things (mostly what you two have said), he wanted to avoid slaughter on the industrial scale at any costs.

Perhaps the wrong decision but he certainly stuck to what he believed in and that seems like an admirable trait in a politician. I believe there's a quote associated to him, which I can't remember exactly, from the day after war broke out. It goes along the lines of

"My life's work has been wasted"

In regards to what Tiger was saying, there's another quote attributed to Churchill (again, can't remember it entirely, but I think it's in the link as it happens) where he specifically states that he's going to paint Chamberlain in a negative light.

If you look at the record of Churchill's entire career, he's not the kind of guy who would respect somebody for making the practical, undramatic, easily-interpreted-as-weak decision instead of confronting evil head-on.

Indeed. He did seem to have this romanticised idea about being about fighting "evil" (though, let's face it, Hitler was pretty fucking evil) and I'm afraid he wrote his histories of the war to reflect that. Churchill was, almost certainly, not the man the modern media or popular histories would have us think he was. He's also probably got something to do with why everyone adores Monty so much.

You know, the funny thing is, the German Army in May 1940 wasn't exactly the all beating force people make it out to be. Especially the Panzers.

Tactical air power, tactical prowess and communications were the name of the game for the Germans.

Indeed. They arguably still weren't ready for a full-on war even then, to say nothing of the unforgivably crappy nature of most German tanks at that point.
The Luftwaffe took something like 20-25% losses in Poland, and the Panzer arm was almost devastated in France through breakdowns and actual combat. Motorization, much less mechanization, had barely started even on the limited scale the Germans were envisioning by the time Poland rolled around, and it hadn't progressed too well by the time of France as well.

Allied tanks, at the time, were some of the best in the world. They severely outclassed the vast majority of German armour on the field (Panzer I's and Panzer II's). Unfortunately for them, they had literally no idea how to tank. They also lacked radios in the vehicle, allowing inferior German armour to gain a significant tactical advantage.

[The Two Jerseys]

For the sake of Tiger's blood pressure, it's trivia time!

• Talbot has an older brother, Edward, who is a captain in the Royal Engineers.
• Talbot's favorite movie stars: James Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, Cary Grant, and Barbara Stanwyck.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

If you look at the record of Churchill's entire career, he's not the kind of guy who would respect somebody for making the practical, undramatic, easily-interpreted-as-weak decision instead of confronting evil head-on.

Indeed. He did seem to have this romanticised idea about being about fighting "evil" (though, let's face it, Hitler was pretty fucking evil) and I'm afraid he wrote his histories of the war to reflect that.

I love those books so much.

Churchill was, almost certainly, not the man the modern media or popular histories would have us think he was.

He's a very interesting person to study, I find, and while he was wrong about a shitload of stuff (India, Norway, almost all facets of domestic policy), the fact that he actually let his advisors overrule him, and admitted when he was wrong, says a great deal.

He's also probably got something to do with why everyone adores Monty so much.

Huh?
Monty's pretty much everyone's favorite successful Allied general to bash.

Indeed. They arguably still weren't ready for a full-on war even then, to say nothing of the unforgivably crappy nature of most German tanks at that point.
The Luftwaffe took something like 20-25% losses in Poland, and the Panzer arm was almost devastated in France through breakdowns and actual combat. Motorization, much less mechanization, had barely started even on the limited scale the Germans were envisioning by the time Poland rolled around, and it hadn't progressed too well by the time of France as well.

Allied tanks, at the time, were some of the best in the world. They severely outclassed the vast majority of German armour on the field (Panzer I's and Panzer II's). Unfortunately for them, they had literally no idea how to tank. They also lacked radios in the vehicle, allowing inferior German armour to gain a significant tactical advantage.

I feel like we're giving a cooperative lecture here.

[United Kingdom of Poland]

Indeed. He did seem to have this romanticised idea about being about fighting "evil" (though, let's face it, Hitler was pretty fucking evil) and I'm afraid he wrote his histories of the war to reflect that.

I love those books so much.

Churchill was, almost certainly, not the man the modern media or popular histories would have us think he was.

He's a very interesting person to study, I find, and while he was wrong about a shitload of stuff (India, Norway, almost all facets of domestic policy), the fact that he actually let his advisors overrule him, and admitted when he was wrong, says a great deal.

He's also probably got something to do with why everyone adores Monty so much.

Huh?
Monty's pretty much everyone's favorite successful Allied general to bash.

Allied tanks, at the time, were some of the best in the world. They severely outclassed the vast majority of German armour on the field (Panzer I's and Panzer II's). Unfortunately for them, they had literally no idea how to tank. They also lacked radios in the vehicle, allowing inferior German armour to gain a significant tactical advantage.

I feel like we're giving a cooperative lecture here.

with good reason tiger.

[The balkens]

Quite.

Also, brace Yourselves boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.

It's about to get Really fucking dumb.


Anyway back to the discussion, Monty wasn't a bad general; his record proves that. Perhaps it's the way he cooperated with other allied generals?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

with good reason tiger.

Like it or not, he was pretty much the first Allied general to figure out a consistent way to win against the Axis after three years of fumbling and mistakes.
You can dispute his tactics, and he did fuck up in Holland, but Alamein kinda stands alone.

Quite.

Also, brace Yourselves boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.

It's about to get Really fucking dumb.

Huh?

[United Kingdom of Poland]

Quite.

Also, brace Yourselves boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.

It's about to get Really fucking dumb.


Anyway back to the discussion, Monty wasn't a bad general; his record proves that. Perhaps it's the way he cooperated with other allied generals?

or his overcautious nature and his horrible resource management skills
plus what record, his most famous (and only if you rule out all the ww1-esque gains after D-day) win was a barely squeaked out breakthrough against Rommel even after he completely outgunned and outmanned him.

[The balkens]

with good reason tiger.

Like it or not, he was pretty much the first Allied general to figure out a consistent way to win against the Axis after three years of fumbling and mistakes.
You can dispute his tactics, and he did fuck up in Holland, but Alamein kinda stands alone.

Quite.

Also, brace Yourselves boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.

It's about to get Really fucking dumb.

Huh?

Oh you know, it's a repeat of what happened nearly 2 decades ago.

The goverment has been shutdown. Landmarks, tourist attractions and vital SS checks as well as other assistance programs have grounded to a screeching halt.
Guess who's going to get the blame? Yes, everyone has shit on their hands but who's hands will be even shitier?

[Monfrox]

Monty: Hey Patton, slow down your advance because you're putting me to shame.

Patton: Lol, fuck you Monty. I do what I want.

I distinctly remember reading a part in a book that labeled General Montgomery as a prima donna.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Quite.

Also, brace Yourselves boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen.

It's about to get Really fucking dumb.


Anyway back to the discussion, Monty wasn't a bad general; his record proves that. Perhaps it's the way he cooperated with other allied generals?

or his overcautious nature and his horrible resource management skills
plus what record, his most famous (and only if you rule out all the ww1-esque gains after D-day) win was a barely squeaked out breakthrough against Rommel even after he completely outgunned and outmanned him.

Alamein was not "barely squeaked out", it was a set-piece battle that Rommel literally could not have won. Caen was a victory too, of sorts, in that while it didn't gain much ground, it attracted so much panzer attention that it allowed the Americans to break out on the other side of the beach-head in a massive, unstoppable wave. It essentially forces the Germans to use their panzer divisions as defensive emplacements instead of offensive instruments, which made them easy prey for air support. Hence the massive Cobra breakout and the total collapse of the Germans in France.

As to Montgomery's "overcautiousness", there's an excellent (if slightly flawed, especially when it comes to covering the bombing campaigns) book that addresses this idea directly, called "The Blitzkrieg Myth". It points out all these accusations of Monty being overcautious or inefficient with his resources as coming from exactly the wrong place. The author's theory, which I find rather compelling, is that when two motorized/mechanized opponents capable of utilizing "blitzkrieg tactics" collide - like the Eighth Army and the Italo-German Panzerarmee - the defender will always, always, always have the advantage, because they will always be able to retreat faster than the enemy can advance. You'll note this came true in those two years of battles in the desert before Alamein - both sides came perilously close to total victory numerous times, their enemies smashed and the road to Tripoli or Alexandria functionally open, only to be turned back by last-ditch enemy counterattacks when their armored advances got too far and isolated. Look at Gazala, Crusader, Battleaxe...a massive list of ultimately failed "blitzkrieg-style" armored thrusts designed to break the enemy and cut them to pieces. Blitzkrieg does not work that way, and its arguable if it ever would have worked in the desert with those two armies. It's vastly overrated, as the Germans would discover there and also on the Eastern Front.

Monty broke this trend, by fighting in the way that the Germans had refined by the last year of the First World War (and with which they had come very close to winning with) - combined-arms attacks (instead of stupid tanker cavalry charges directly into the 88s which many of the preceding British generals seemed to think was the perfect emulation of Rommel's tactics) with integrated artillery, air support, and crushing, irresistible force. He took for granted the fact that the retreater will always get away from you - so instead of flinging his tanks at them across the desert for them to get shot to pieces again by the regrouping Afrika Korps, he advanced pragmatically and rationally across the desert, making absolutely sure that there was no way they could be forced back again. It's funny you used the word "breakthrough", because that word is generally used to describe Blitzkrieg advances - a breakthrough at a single point of the line that then is meant to become a fast-paced envelopment. What Monty did was not a "breakthrough". What he did was smash the Germans so irresistibly that there was no way they could hold their positions there.

The Rommel/Blitzkrieg fetishization by a lot of historians has done, I feel, a lot of damage to the actual nature of what the war was like. Had Monty been less "cautious", at least in Africa, they would have found, once again, that Blitzkrieg-style advances simply would not work on the Germans - their officers and NCOs were too well trained, they moved too fast, and their defensive weapons were world-beaters. Combined-arms and overwhelming force, while not as overtly sexy as dramatic tank charges, were what won Africa.

As to "resource management", that's what it took to won. All those generals before him (Wavell, Auchinleck, Ritchie, whoever) had what I'm sure you would term "better" resource management skills, but you'll also note they kept losing to Rommel.

Like it or not, he was pretty much the first Allied general to figure out a consistent way to win against the Axis after three years of fumbling and mistakes.
You can dispute his tactics, and he did fuck up in Holland, but Alamein kinda stands alone.


Huh?

Oh you know, it's a repeat of what happened nearly 2 decades ago.

The goverment has been shutdown. Landmarks, tourist attractions and vital SS checks as well as other assistance programs have grounded to a screeching halt.
Guess who's going to get the blame? Yes, everyone has shit on their hands but who's hands will be even shitier?

Ah, right, that.
Not sure if I'm going in to work on Wednesday, I guess...

Monty: Hey Patton, slow down your advance because you're putting me to shame.

Patton: Lol, fuck you Monty. I do what I want.

I distinctly remember reading a part in a book that labeled General Montgomery as a prima donna.

And Patton wasn't?
They were both bitches, frankly, in terms of personality.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

For the sake of Tiger's blood pressure, it's trivia time!

• Talbot has an older brother, Edward, who is a captain in the Royal Engineers.
• Talbot's favorite movie stars: James Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, Cary Grant, and Barbara Stanwyck.

Also, I shouldn't leave this hanging.
Page's brother Paul, whom some of you may remember from Guillotine, is officially part of the 9th Battalion, Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment, who served in Africa and Italy. We may be seeing him later.
...I'll think of some more slightly later.

[Monfrox]

Tiger, the difference between General Montgomery and General Patton is that I idolize Patton. He's one of my heroes.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Tiger, the difference between General Montgomery and General Patton is that I idolize Patton. He's one of my heroes.

whatever floats your boat i guess

[Monfrox]

Tiger, the difference between General Montgomery and General Patton is that I idolize Patton. He's one of my heroes.

whatever floats your boat i guess

*eyes intently*

[Kouralia]

For the sake of Tiger's blood pressure, it's trivia time!

• Talbot has an older brother, Edward, who is a captain in the Royal Engineers.
• Talbot's favorite movie stars: James Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, Cary Grant, and Barbara Stanwyck.

Also, I shouldn't leave this hanging.
Page's brother Paul, whom some of you may remember from Guillotine, is officially part of the 9th Battalion, Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment, who served in Africa and Italy. We may be seeing him later.
...I'll think of some more slightly later.

Sebastian has *mumble* with the *mumble* and this might *mumble* at a later date.

Tiger, the difference between General Montgomery and General Patton is that I idolize Patton. He's one of my heroes.

whatever floats your boat i guess

#LordMountbatten

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Also, I shouldn't leave this hanging.
Page's brother Paul, whom some of you may remember from Guillotine, is officially part of the 9th Battalion, Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment, who served in Africa and Italy. We may be seeing him later.
...I'll think of some more slightly later.

Sebastian has *mumble* with the *mumble* and this might *mumble* at a later date.

HEY, GET A LOAD OF THIS GUY PRETENDING LIKE HE HAS A PLAN
LET'S POINT AND LAUGH

whatever floats your boat i guess

#LordMountbatten

#TooSoon

[Kouralia]

Sebastian has *mumble* with the *mumble* and this might *mumble* at a later date.

HEY, GET A LOAD OF THIS GUY PRETENDING LIKE HE HAS A PLAN
LET'S POINT AND LAUGH

I would have a plan, it's just I'm lazy.

#LordMountbatten

#TooSoon

I hadn't actually realised that, I was actually posting that because he's one of my favourite naval commanders.