Conwy-shire wrote:In other news, the first post on the invasion of Epirus has been finished, although I'm not too proud of the quality
Dun dun DUN!!!!
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by The Industrial States of Columbia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:03 pm
Conwy-shire wrote:In other news, the first post on the invasion of Epirus has been finished, although I'm not too proud of the quality
by Alleniana » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:04 pm
by The Industrial States of Columbia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:08 pm
Alleniana wrote:Columbia, you ought to advertise this on the RP advertisements thread
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=283489
by Alleniana » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:16 pm
The Industrial States of Columbia wrote:Alleniana wrote:Columbia, you ought to advertise this on the RP advertisements thread
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=283489
Sounds goot, I shall post zere ;U;
by Rudaslavia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:17 pm
by The Industrial States of Columbia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:20 pm
Rudaslavia wrote:I've corrected the date of my post to 17 April, 1835 (not 17 January; I read the dates wrong).
by Conwy-Shire » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:12 pm
The Industrial States of Columbia wrote:Illuminati timetravel confirmed
Also, mupdate should be completed
by The Industrial States of Columbia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:19 pm
by Conwy-Shire » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:21 pm
The Industrial States of Columbia wrote:You should still have that land, I must have had a glitch or something, I see the provinces you are talking about in an older map :/
by The Industrial States of Columbia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:22 pm
by Alleniana » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:54 pm
by The Jonathanian States » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:42 am
Alleniana wrote:The Jonathanian States wrote:I'm not an expert in bacteriology or stuff, but I believe that alcoholic drinks should actually be less open to spreading disease than water.
Fine, holy water in the most prestigious church. On a side note, there's these soap-dispenser things for holy water in Italy, due to the spread of disease in fonts, it's hilarious.
I already answered this multiple times. An Army that is in Hamburg unhistorically is missing from its historical places and therefore is more likely than not to cause butterflies which we'd have to clean up.
But, as I also already said, this depends on when and how, actually, instead of just throwing out this idea repeatedly.
Swedish king's ship is rammed by Hanseatic vessel because Hanseatic vessel is manned by idiots.
Hansa refuses to pay up.
Swedish king leads punitive raid,
Swedish king is also a little bit insane.
Occurs in some peaceful era of history.
Or, we put it in any of the following
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... tic_League
I'm sure there's a historically irrelevant war in there somewhere, with no effects other than some dead people and a bit of money changing hands.
Hamburg, at least, is fortified since quite a long time ago. Surprise really is not going to be enough to capture the city without casualties that would weaken that army unhistorically.
A barrel of tar spills, the gatehouse burns, it was being repaired at the time and a part collapses, king sends in shock troops at the breach.
You'd have to get that revolt to happen. And then succeed. And then not be crushed by the neighbors.
I don't know why all revolts in history happened or did not, but the fact is that I know of no revolt that happened specifically in Hamburg and that the 1848 uprisings in Hamburg were unsuccessful as such.
Black Death; some local strain hits a Hanseatic city, so everyone is afraid to go near it. Scaremongering, rumours and minstrels or whatever help to spread tales that the nobility are behind it. Captain of guard dies or something, same day, lynch mob forms.
In all honesty, I did not expect you to stoop to the level of those. Of random events. I even think I sort of am disappointed. Also, I really don't see any occasion for all of the Patricians being on a single ship during times that such an event could have none of them survive.
What do you mean? You weren't in NI, I suppose. Balconies are my favourite.
They're summoned to a meeting in a hall on an issue, because there's so many of them the structural integrity is damaged (stomping feet and all that) and it collapses, the only survivor/s is reformist, or nobody survives.
Once again, perhaps scary tales prevent conservatives from coming in, because they're scared. At least, fewer of them.
Or, there's a festival, some kind of celebration or something, same sort of thing; falling wall or balcony or fire that spreads around the venue. And so forth.
A ruler from amongst the patricians?
Or somebody from outside? Both cases to an extent raise the question of if that ruler is publicly known as insane why are his orders still carried through....
Perhaps from before the Hansa,
or in some interrepublic (opposite of interregnum?).
Why would it do that? On what basis? You already proposed this, specifically with Napoleon, and I already told you that you have to provide an actual reason for this to be done.
With Napoleon, I'd say expelled.
And, frankly, if it was with Napoleon, that wouldn't be hard either.
"Oh no, Emperor, *insert heartthrob story where the Hanseatic patricians are the bad guys*"
"Sacre bleu! Expel them!"
And it's done.
Proper reasons aren't needed for small actions, when they could happen by chance.
For an example, in China, it was often the case that Mao would read off a poster or banner, and just because he said it out loud, it would become a motto. IIRC, communes happened somewhat like that, he said they were good and they popped up all over China overnight.
Then you haven't got the Hansa but rather a copy of the Hansa, but fair enough, assuming you do it properly.
I'll be honest and say that I'm rather weak on the pre-Hanseatic governance history so I have no idea on the viability of this. My gut feeling is no, but this could as well be wrong.
Gut feeling is no in what way?
Alleniana wrote:mark Switzerland as owning all Germany on the new map thanks
Conwy-shire wrote:This discussion about butterflies and Hansa is making me motion-sick, why not just let them exist?
by Alleniana » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:23 am
The Jonathanian States wrote:Alleniana wrote:Fine, holy water in the most prestigious church. On a side note, there's these soap-dispenser things for holy water in Italy, due to the spread of disease in fonts, it's hilarious.
Swedish king's ship is rammed by Hanseatic vessel because Hanseatic vessel is manned by idiots.
Yeah, I have a few issues with that. Let's start with the Swedish king sailing on a single vessel rather than within a fleet, which would prevent the Hanseatics from ramming him rather than a generic ship.
Then there's the fact that even if he's on a lone ship I'd assume it should carry his standard, showing the Hanseatic ship to stay away, as well as that they probably would explicitly order the Hanseatic ship away because it's a bloody lone ship with their king on it.
Also, I'm not sure of that idiot part either
Hansa refuses to pay up.
A few issues.
Let's start with there being no Hansa as we know it except for the shot confederation (thanks Paradox). It was less Germany and more European Union.
That's part of the trouble with actually having it be a state later in history. Anyway, my point being that neither does the Hansa have its own ships (which would refer to above, but I suppose any ship from within the League can be classified as a Hanseatic one) nor would the league decide on or even refuse that payment.
Swedish king leads punitive raid,
Sure. So he sends his ships/troops to raid, say, Hamburg.
Wait, to do so he requires at least the benevolence or cooperation of either the Dukes of Mecklenburg, the Patricians of Lübeck and then the count(?) of Lauenburg, the Kings of Denmark, or the ruler of both Schleswig and Holstein.
Depending on when exactly we are the first's rivalry with the fourth is likely to make him pro-Hanseatic, as often is the case with the fifth, while the second definitely is more pro-Hamburg than pro-Sweden and therefore voids the third, the fourth while being an ardent rival of the Hanseatic cities has a rivalry even greater with Sweden, letting me safely doubt he'd cooperate with its king.
Anyway, it's bloody hard for me to operate on this general scale because the above change and vary by time so I'd rather appreciate you deciding on a time so that I can try and be more accurate rather than having to put broader speculation.
Swedish king is also a little bit insane.
That sounds like reason for a regency....
Occurs in some peaceful era of history.
Great. You replace peace with war. There's no way that can have any implications, right? Right? Danish seizing the moment? Russians seizing the moment? Internal nobles seiying the moment? Other rebels? The usage funds for that war meaning that the next (historical) war can only be fought to a lesser(unhistorical) extent?
Or, we put it in any of the following
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... tic_League
I'm sure there's a historically irrelevant war in there somewhere, with no effects other than some dead people and a bit of money changing hands.
Well, we have a few wars with Lübeck involved, but only one with Hamburg in it.
I'll start with that one and then go to the ones involving Lübeck.
The war we are interested in now is the Dano-Hanseatic war.
I have actually read and written quite a bit 'bout this one, seeing as IIRC it has one of the main PODs for my Great Hanseatic TL.
The main problem with your idea in this war is that Sweden has no king. At least, no Swedish King with that as "primary" title. Sweden is ruled by Denmark, specifically by Queen Philippa and then King Eric.
Amusingly, in this one war involving Hamburg Lübeck historically still is the leading hanseatic city so targeting it rather than Lübeck is rather silly.
That aside either of those could lead to a Hanseatic defeat, which will definitely lead to butterflies at least in the history of the Hanseatic cities that historically gained from the war and might change the position of denmark relative to future things, but I'm too lazy to check whether it would.
But back the Hansa. In this war they gained/restored trading priviliges which ensured their continuation as a relevant trading force.
Without those you have opened the Baltic to English and dutch trade earlier, with a good possibility of permanently destroying the league. GG.
Hamburg, at least, is fortified since quite a long time ago. Surprise really is not going to be enough to capture the city without casualties that would weaken that army unhistorically.
A barrel of tar spills, the gatehouse burns, it was being repaired at the time and a part collapses, king sends in shock troops at the breach.
Black Death; some local strain hits a Hanseatic city, so everyone is afraid to go near it. Scaremongering, rumours and minstrels or whatever help to spread tales that the nobility are behind it. Captain of guard dies or something, same day, lynch mob forms.
Let's start with saying that the Black death hit in 1350 and killed half of the population OTL (or more).
It was at the same time as much of the region, and I doubt both there being a local strain specifically in Hamburg and the fact it would be known and therefore cause people from within the region afflicted at the same time to stay away from Hamburg especially.
But ok, let's look at the rest of the things taking this as one as granted.
You have the good patricians of Hamburg accused of spreading the plague that has terrorized europe for roughly three years, at this point? Yeah, no.
But even if that were to happen. Somehow. And the people believe it enough to form a lynch mob... Aaaaand of course the Captain of the guards has to die as well.
What a nice coincidence. Now, then we rely on the mod overwhelming unled guards, something which I could be possible. Of course this is before the confederation of cologne or before the first Hansetag, meaning that Hamburg lacks the class of merchants that would request such trading privileges as were discussed there. And if those were to be replaced by commoners would the other cities cooperate?
If you answer yes to this, then sure, you've probably democratized Hamburg. Unless those new merchants learn from history and the other cities, of course.
Have you made it more open to forming a single state with the other cities? Doubt that.
What do you mean? You weren't in NI, I suppose. Balconies are my favourite.
Until now I always considered that a shame. Suddenly I'm really glad I wasn't involved in it.
They're summoned to a meeting in a hall on an issue, because there's so many of them the structural integrity is damaged (stomping feet and all that) and it collapses, the only survivor/s is reformist, or nobody survives.
Except that until 1842 the city hall/parliament/senate all were located in a building built in 1292.
And even then it stopped serving as city hall because it was blown to bits to help stop the spread of the Great Hamburg fire.
QED, that building is bloody stable.
I could check if there was something before that, but I'd say you'd be edging butterflying away Hamburgian participation in the League at that point.
Once again, perhaps scary tales prevent conservatives from coming in, because they're scared. At least, fewer of them.
So fewer or no conservatives go there, meaning that either nothing happens or only reformists die?
An omen!
You probably meant something else, but I've got no idea.
Or, there's a festival, some kind of celebration or something, same sort of thing; falling wall or balcony or fire that spreads around the venue. And so forth.
Perhaps from before the Hansa,
In Hamburg the council seems to have been given legislative powers in 1292 though there's indication of some aristocratic council existing in both Hamburgs as early as 1190.or in some interrepublic (opposite of interregnum?).
With Napoleon, I'd say expelled.
Then I see no reason for the Viennese Congress not to either revoke that, a la Switzerland, or to annex those cities into say Hannover or other larger states.
Unless you change Napoleon being defeated.....
And, frankly, if it was with Napoleon, that wouldn't be hard either.
"Oh no, Emperor, *insert heartthrob story where the Hanseatic patricians are the bad guys*"
"Sacre bleu! Expel them!"
And it's done.
Yeah, I doubt that's the case.
But heck, see above.
It is compared to just about everything else in this RP. Which reminds me, another plausible divergence is that due to a stronger China, trade is diverted away from the Hansa, forcing it into instability and culminating in the patricians losing power.Proper reasons aren't needed for small actions, when they could happen by chance.
Except expelling a whole class of people without any good basis is not a small action.
For an example, in China, it was often the case that Mao would read off a poster or banner, and just because he said it out loud, it would become a motto. IIRC, communes happened somewhat like that, he said they were good and they popped up all over China overnight.
Source, if you please?
Gut feeling is no in what way?
Gut feeling is that this prevention of aristocratic rule in Hamburg is not possible.
by Alleniana » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:39 am
by Conwy-Shire » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:41 am
Altito Asmoro wrote:Belgium's open for claim?
by Altito Asmoro » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:43 am
by Conwy-Shire » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:57 am
Altito Asmoro wrote:Nusantara's being partitioned. Beside, at that time my college time was eating me up.
Now, I've been freer. A bit.
by Altito Asmoro » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:07 am
by The Jonathanian States » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:58 am
Alleniana wrote:@Jon, why don't we agree to disagree. Columbia's already ruled, and there doesn't seem to be much point.
Alleniana wrote:The Jonathanian States wrote:Yeah, I have a few issues with that. Let's start with the Swedish king sailing on a single vessel rather than within a fleet, which would prevent the Hanseatics from ramming him rather than a generic ship.
Then there's the fact that even if he's on a lone ship I'd assume it should carry his standard, showing the Hanseatic ship to stay away, as well as that they probably would explicitly order the Hanseatic ship away because it's a bloody lone ship with their king on it.
Also, I'm not sure of that idiot part either
I meant a ship owned by the Swedish king.
A few issues.
Let's start with there being no Hansa as we know it except for the shot confederation (thanks Paradox). It was less Germany and more European Union.
That's part of the trouble with actually having it be a state later in history. Anyway, my point being that neither does the Hansa have its own ships (which would refer to above, but I suppose any ship from within the League can be classified as a Hanseatic one) nor would the league decide on or even refuse that payment.
It can be Hamburger, Lubecker, doesn't matter. Just a ship of a thing in the Hansa.
Sure. So he sends his ships/troops to raid, say, Hamburg.
Wait, to do so he requires at least the benevolence or cooperation of either the Dukes of Mecklenburg, the Patricians of Lübeck and then the count(?) of Lauenburg, the Kings of Denmark, or the ruler of both Schleswig and Holstein.
Depending on when exactly we are the first's rivalry with the fourth is likely to make him pro-Hanseatic, as often is the case with the fifth, while the second definitely is more pro-Hamburg than pro-Sweden and therefore voids the third, the fourth while being an ardent rival of the Hanseatic cities has a rivalry even greater with Sweden, letting me safely doubt he'd cooperate with its king.
Anyway, it's bloody hard for me to operate on this general scale because the above change and vary by time so I'd rather appreciate you deciding on a time so that I can try and be more accurate rather than having to put broader speculation.
You can decide the time that's most likely for it, I don't know.
That sounds like reason for a regency....
A little bit.
Great. You replace peace with war. There's no way that can have any implications, right? Right? Danish seizing the moment? Russians seizing the moment? Internal nobles seiying the moment? Other rebels? The usage funds for that war meaning that the next (historical) war can only be fought to a lesser(unhistorical) extent?
Yes, because in the meantime, we could have a shipwreck or a better harvest than IRL due to a fruit fly jumping on one wagon or another or something, nullifying any losses from said war, because it wouldn't be a very big one.
Well, we have a few wars with Lübeck involved, but only one with Hamburg in it.
I'll start with that one and then go to the ones involving Lübeck.
The war we are interested in now is the Dano-Hanseatic war.
I have actually read and written quite a bit 'bout this one, seeing as IIRC it has one of the main PODs for my Great Hanseatic TL.
The main problem with your idea in this war is that Sweden has no king. At least, no Swedish King with that as "primary" title. Sweden is ruled by Denmark, specifically by Queen Philippa and then King Eric.
Amusingly, in this one war involving Hamburg Lübeck historically still is the leading hanseatic city so targeting it rather than Lübeck is rather silly.
That aside either of those could lead to a Hanseatic defeat, which will definitely lead to butterflies at least in the history of the Hanseatic cities that historically gained from the war and might change the position of denmark relative to future things, but I'm too lazy to check whether it would.
But back the Hansa. In this war they gained/restored trading priviliges which ensured their continuation as a relevant trading force.
Without those you have opened the Baltic to English and dutch trade earlier, with a good possibility of permanently destroying the league. GG.
Possibility of. Instead, English happen to pay more attention to Brazil, which they did, and the Dutch also pay more attention to, for example, Australia, which they did.
Unless you do mean a POD during the era in which the Hanseatic walls were made out of even this tar spilling should mean that except for this gatehouse-in-repair fortifications stand. If an enemy is at the gates which are in disrepair you while have stationed pikemen or whatever behind it. Hamburg would probably fall, but to an assault probably no less costly than were the gate intact.
I'd also argue that you have to get that gate broken exactly in that time, but seeing as you have no issues with handwaving....
Architectually odd, I grant you.
Instead, tar spill and ensuing fire, or gunpowder barrel goes off inside the gatehouse due to improper storage, or something of that nature.
Let's start with saying that the Black death hit in 1350 and killed half of the population OTL (or more).
It was at the same time as much of the region, and I doubt both there being a local strain specifically in Hamburg and the fact it would be known and therefore cause people from within the region afflicted at the same time to stay away from Hamburg especially.
But ok, let's look at the rest of the things taking this as one as granted.
You have the good patricians of Hamburg accused of spreading the plague that has terrorized europe for roughly three years, at this point? Yeah, no.
But even if that were to happen. Somehow. And the people believe it enough to form a lynch mob... Aaaaand of course the Captain of the guards has to die as well.
What a nice coincidence. Now, then we rely on the mod overwhelming unled guards, something which I could be possible. Of course this is before the confederation of cologne or before the first Hansetag, meaning that Hamburg lacks the class of merchants that would request such trading privileges as were discussed there. And if those were to be replaced by commoners would the other cities cooperate?
If you answer yes to this, then sure, you've probably democratized Hamburg. Unless those new merchants learn from history and the other cities, of course.
Have you made it more open to forming a single state with the other cities? Doubt that.
A strain of, not the main Black Death. This is either before or after the actual Black Death; basically, disease sweeps through city, kills captain of guard, fearmongering provokes mob to revolt and kill the main patrician lines, significantly weakening their power, and due to fear of the disease/the mob, people are more hesitant than would be expected in taking up the roles of the old patricians, meaning a small power vacuum is filled by constitutionally peasanty shit.
Until now I always considered that a shame. Suddenly I'm really glad I wasn't involved in it.
Suit yourself, I've noticed a proliferation of random events in RPs since NI.
Except that until 1842 the city hall/parliament/senate all were located in a building built in 1292.
And even then it stopped serving as city hall because it was blown to bits to help stop the spread of the Great Hamburg fire.
QED, that building is bloody stable.
I could check if there was something before that, but I'd say you'd be edging butterflying away Hamburgian participation in the League at that point.
The hall is built differently because the architect who designed it slipped and bumped his head drinking mead one evening.
So fewer or no conservatives go there, meaning that either nothing happens or only reformists die?
An omen!
You probably meant something else, but I've got no idea.
As in, due to folktales, conservatives are more wary of immigrating, leaving the power vacuum to be filled by less conservative locals of the classes that didn't die.
In Hamburg the council seems to have been given legislative powers in 1292 though there's indication of some aristocratic council existing in both Hamburgs as early as 1190.
Then I see no reason for the Viennese Congress not to either revoke that, a la Switzerland, or to annex those cities into say Hannover or other larger states.
Unless you change Napoleon being defeated.....
Because the expelled people are all over Europe and don't feel like coming back,
and even if they did, they couldn't restore the old order entirely, because the people have got a taste of things without them.
Yeah, I doubt that's the case.
But heck, see above.
It's plausible.
It is compared to just about everything else in this RP. Which reminds me, another plausible divergence is that due to a stronger China, trade is diverted away from the Hansa, forcing it into instability and culminating in the patricians losing power.
Except expelling a whole class of people without any good basis is not a small action.
Source, if you please?
I'll find it eventually, maybe.
Gut feeling is that this prevention of aristocratic rule in Hamburg is not possible.
In no way; it would be easy to have a wayward migrating tribe sack the city and have it never become relevant.
What may be difficult is retaining Hamburg as it was IRL, sans only the aristocrats.
by Jaslandia » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:10 pm
by Alleniana » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:08 pm
by The Jonathanian States » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:03 am
Jaslandia wrote:My second IC post is finished. Response to the Neapolitan invasion and a letter to Venice included.
Alleniana wrote:@Jon, I'm not particularly interested in continuing; I've got a lot of other stuff to do.
by Liecthenbourg » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:10 am
The Jonathanian States wrote:Jaslandia wrote:My second IC post is finished. Response to the Neapolitan invasion and a letter to Venice included.
y u no answer Prussian banter.
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