[PASSED] Liberate The NSIA

[Ainland]

This is a total misuse of the world liberate. It is a gross manipulation of Security Council procedures. If a resolution was proposed to condemn the NSIA, then I would consider it. If this proposal were to state that the SC authorises the invasion of the NSIA, then it would be more accurate. And if the SC procedures do not allow for that, then that is not good reason to manipulate SC policy by drafting a resolution falsely claiming to liberate a region, when in fact the clear intention is to invade it.

This is not a debate on:
Whether the NSIA should be condemned
Whether the NSIA should be invaded
Whether we approve of the NSIA, its ideology, its members or its actions
Whether the procedures of the Security Council are sufficient or acceptable.

This is only a debate on whether this particular resolution should be approved. And for the reasons stated in this post, as well as those outlined earlier in this thread, I urge fellow members of the Council to vote against this motion.

[Morteuphoria Novus]

Nothing has been said about them attacking or enforcing other countries/regions their ideal, for us to attack them.

I have played NationStates since 2003 and fought alongside early defenders of NationStates (e.g. Pacific Defenders/Anti Nazi Alliance) against a coalition of Neo-Nazi led regions under the banner The Aryan Army.

The URAP, The NSIA, NAZI EUROPE and many others were apart of this coalition which raided and pillaged NationStates for years.

These regions crimes against the NationStates community cannot go unpunished.

Okay, then condemn them for their crimes. Which first of all would be silly if they haven't done any in years. I haven't ever seen anybody else get the WA sicced on them for something that happened a RL decade ago. That's absurd.

And it's a moot point, anyway. The resolution does not say ANYTHING about any crimes they committed, or about that being the reason for the proposed action. This is absurd. Are we the Thought Police now? Tell me where in the resolution it says anything about how this is punishment for their crimes (which sounds like haven't happened in years from your description). It doesn't. It just says their beliefs are evil, so we should invade them. Is the WA an invader organization now, because that's all this action would boil down to.

[Caelapes]

This is a total misuse of the world liberate. It is a gross manipulation of Security Council procedures. If a resolution was proposed to condemn the NSIA, then I would consider it. If this proposal were to state that the SC authorises the invasion of the NSIA, then it would be more accurate. And if the SC procedures do not allow for that, then that is not good reason to manipulate SC policy by drafting a resolution falsely claiming to liberate a region, when in fact the clear intention is to invade it.

This is not a debate on:
Whether the NSIA should be condemned
Whether the NSIA should be invaded
Whether we approve of the NSIA, its ideology, its members or its actions
Whether the procedures of the Security Council are sufficient or acceptable.

This is only a debate on whether this particular resolution should be approved. And for the reasons stated in this post, as well as those outlined earlier in this thread, I urge fellow members of the Council to vote against this motion.

Actually, the Liberation proposal is not specifically a defensive tool against invasions. It can be (and has been) used as an offensive tool against certain regions.

[Ainland]

Actually, the Liberation proposal is not specifically a defensive tool against invasions. It can be (and has been) used as an offensive tool against certain regions.

And in that situation where it was done before, my same statement about misuse of the term liberation and abuse of SC procedures would apply.

[Krytaek]

This is very clearly just an attempt to use the WA to legalize an invasion attempt. I have yet to see the proposer do anything to refute this point. I cannot in good faith vote for this decision.

[Drasnia]

This is a total misuse of the world liberate. It is a gross manipulation of Security Council procedures. If a resolution was proposed to condemn the NSIA, then I would consider it. If this proposal were to state that the SC authorises the invasion of the NSIA, then it would be more accurate. And if the SC procedures do not allow for that, then that is not good reason to manipulate SC policy by drafting a resolution falsely claiming to liberate a region, when in fact the clear intention is to invade it.

This is not a debate on:
Whether the NSIA should be condemned
Whether the NSIA should be invaded
Whether we approve of the NSIA, its ideology, its members or its actions
Whether the procedures of the Security Council are sufficient or acceptable.

This is only a debate on whether this particular resolution should be approved. And for the reasons stated in this post, as well as those outlined earlier in this thread, I urge fellow members of the Council to vote against this motion.

Actually, the Liberation proposal is not specifically a defensive tool against invasions. It can be (and has been) used as an offensive tool against certain regions.

It's just that it only gets used offensively against nazi themed regions, e.g. Liberate nazi Europe.

EDIT: fixed phone typos

[The Texan Union]

This is a total misuse of the world liberate. It is a gross manipulation of Security Council procedures. If a resolution was proposed to condemn the NSIA, then I would consider it. If this proposal were to state that the SC authorises the invasion of the NSIA, then it would be more accurate. And if the SC procedures do not allow for that, then that is not good reason to manipulate SC policy by drafting a resolution falsely claiming to liberate a region, when in fact the clear intention is to invade it.

This is not a debate on:
Whether the NSIA should be condemned
Whether the NSIA should be invaded
Whether we approve of the NSIA, its ideology, its members or its actions
Whether the procedures of the Security Council are sufficient or acceptable.

This is only a debate on whether this particular resolution should be approved. And for the reasons stated in this post, as well as those outlined earlier in this thread, I urge fellow members of the Council to vote against this motion.

Actually, the Liberation proposal is not specifically a defensive tool against invasions. It can be (and has been) used as an offensive tool against certain regions.

Do we have any reason to suspect that the region poses any sort of threat to the rest of NS? No, we don't.

You're just attempting to authorize the hostile takeover of a peaceful region, simply because you disagree with their chosen ideology. It's disgusting.

[GreatNazis]

Nothing has been said about them attacking or enforcing other countries/regions their ideal, for us to attack them.

I have played NationStates since 2003 and fought alongside early defenders of NationStates (e.g. Pacific Defenders/Anti Nazi Alliance) against a coalition of Neo-Nazi led regions under the banner The Aryan Army.

The URAP, The NSIA, NAZI EUROPE and many others were apart of this coalition which raided and pillaged NationStates for years.

These regions crimes against the NationStates community cannot go unpunished.

Hold a moment, there. Aryan Army - NSIA/URAP/Thulic Axis among others - wanted nothing to do with NE after The Confederate Empire took the helm. He argued with them, they didn't like him. Ties were severed. NE only started being more friendly to NSIA/URAP after I took over in '08 and wanted to extend some olive branches, alongside TCE's 'retirement'. From what I could tell, the AA was as much interested in fighting Antifa as it was NE.

By the time I was around to introduce myself to the old AA members, most of them were gone and the ones that remained weren't there for the purposes of raiding - just to keep the history alive. Obviously, Ubedarn's real life passing away prevented him from continuing in that regard. I'm curious - for my own records of NE history rather than anything else - as to when NE was allegdly part of the Aryan Army and raided in unison with them. Only time I could think of would be in the '05-'07 era when Dewey Cheatem & Howe was as much of a part of NE hierarchy as he was a part of The NSIA - but that was before my time.

[Wallenburg]

I will not stand for the World Assembly aiding invaders in their wars against other invaders. Wallenburg votes against this pathetic resolution.

[Hayeri]

Support, and we'll send some weapons.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Oh yeah, almost forgot to say, the extent of my opinion here is: didn't the SC have a freak out less than a week ago because a raider submitted an offensive Liberation? And don't try to bullshit a response to this by saying that last time was different because the author wasn't open about it, that is not what everyone was complaining about at the time. I dislike Nazis as much as the next guy, but giving attention to their operations, especially inconsequential defensive operations like this one, is going to nothing in the long run but validate their presence and encourage them to continue their activities.

[Caelapes]

I think the number of people in Nazi Europa has proven the failure of the Security Council's past "ignore them and they'll go away" policy.

[Topid]

Nazi Europa has not been "left alone" by the Security Council, it is almost without a doubt the region receiving the most attention from it. I am sure NE will receive more long-term benefit from this than harm, as it is free publicity in exchange for losing some unheard of region. But, that's not really the point, because if that's the worst criticism we can muster then it is at worst a win-win, no?

I wonder if anyone at NE has contimplated intentionally founding regions that are left to go founderless and then "preserved" for the sole purpose of getting attention here?

[Drasnia]

I think the number of people in Nazi Europa has proven the failure of the Security Council's past "ignore them and they'll go away" policy.

Or perhaps ANTIFA's operations against them have proven that organization's failures. I don't think either can be proven and thus are both equally valid.

Perhaps the better question is why must NS Nazis be so maligned? As it is only an ideology and their actions ingame have not been more destructive than any other organization in this game.

[Scandinavilandia]

I think it is high time we realize that nazism is a threat to the sanctity of the human race and must be stopped,I am shocked at the amount of people who have voted against a resolution to destroy these haters,nazism has been the cause of tens of millions of deaths across the globe and we CANNOT allow it to exist,no matter the cost of "free speech".

[The Texan Union]

I think it is high time we realize that nazism is a threat to the sanctity of the human race and must be stopped,I am shocked at the amount of people who have voted against a resolution to destroy these haters,nazism has been the cause of tens of millions of deaths across the globe and we CANNOT allow it to exist,no matter the cost of "free speech".

The WA of NS has nothing to do with real world events. Hitler does not apply.

Also, if you wanna play that game, communism is worse.

[Frapen Folisia]

Free speech,
I say whatever I want,
And so can you.

[Scandinavilandia]

Free speech,
I say whatever I want,
And so can you.

So if someone said nazism is great would that be okay?

[Asrali]

Even as a new member of the WA, I'm personally shocked at the amount of debate that has gone into this resolution. This resolution is not a question of whether you find these beliefs abominable or not. This is merely a question of whether it's right to decide to allow invasion of a region simply because of its beliefs, and it's written in such a way as to imply moral corruption from the author. This exact argument could be used to approve invasion of a region simply because its people exist on a different point in the political spectrum, or practice a different religion, or are a different race. I find the kind of profiling being used to attempt to pass this resolution revolting, because the rhetoric used for this resolution, if passed, could easily be used to do much more damage to innocent regions in the future. I repeat, this is not a question of the moral standing of the region's nazi beliefs, but rather the moral standing of allowing the invasion of a region based upon some shaky arguments, and obviously written purely out of personal spite, rather than benevolence for the world at large.

[Wallenburg]

Free speech,
I say whatever I want,
And so can you.

So if someone said nazism is great would that be okay?

Yes. After all, it would make it easy for me to tell who is a Nazi.

[Cormactopia II]

Nazi Europa has not been "left alone" by the Security Council, it is almost without a doubt the region receiving the most attention from it.

To be fair, the attention Nazi Europa usually receives comes in the form of liberation resolutions aimed at liberating regions under attack by Nazi Europa. These types of hostile liberation resolutions aren't the norm; there has been only one other like this, Liberate NAZI EUROPE.

Do you think in this quest not to give Nazis attention, we should therefore go ahead and let them invade and destroy regions as well? At some point not giving them attention starts to look a lot like letting them do whatever they want while we all turn a blind eye.

I'm also not at all sure it's true that Nazi Europa receives the most Security Council attention, but I don't feel like counting resolutions.

[Topid]

Nazi Europa has not been "left alone" by the Security Council, it is almost without a doubt the region receiving the most attention from it.

To be fair, the attention Nazi Europa usually receives comes in the form of liberation resolutions aimed at liberating regions under attack by Nazi Europa. These types of hostile liberation resolutions aren't the norm; there has been only one other like this, Liberate NAZI EUROPE.

Do you think in this quest not to give Nazis attention, we should therefore go ahead and let them invade and destroy regions as well? At some point not giving them attention starts to look a lot like letting them do whatever they want while we all turn a blind eye.

I'm also not at all sure it's true that Nazi Europa receives the most Security Council attention, but I don't feel like counting resolutions.

That was my point later on in that post. This very likely does benefit NE, but that doesn't mean don't do it.

EDIT: NE has been successfully condemned twice, liberated once, had all three of those repealed as well as numerous other repeal votes. And then we get to threads like this.

[Cormactopia II]

To be fair, the attention Nazi Europa usually receives comes in the form of liberation resolutions aimed at liberating regions under attack by Nazi Europa. These types of hostile liberation resolutions aren't the norm; there has been only one other like this, Liberate NAZI EUROPE.

Do you think in this quest not to give Nazis attention, we should therefore go ahead and let them invade and destroy regions as well? At some point not giving them attention starts to look a lot like letting them do whatever they want while we all turn a blind eye.

I'm also not at all sure it's true that Nazi Europa receives the most Security Council attention, but I don't feel like counting resolutions.

That was my point later on in that post. This very likely does benefit NE, but that doesn't mean don't do it.

Ah, fair enough. I think I misunderstood you on the first read.

[Pangur Ban]

The only toxic ideology here seems to be yours. I don't know how people convince themselves of things like that. And then someone else chimes in that years ago they were raiders. Well I don't see them doing that now, nor for a long time. Besides that, the proposal has NOTHING TO DO iwth them being raiders. It didn't even mention it. It just said how bad Nazism is and how we must fight against it. What next? Islam can be an extremely destructive ideology under certain (popular) interpretations. Are we just going to start preemptively "uniting the world against [insert ideology here]" whenever we want? That's not what the Security Council is meant for. The WA is not meant to be used for raiding. And the whole point of the proposed resolution is to open the borders to allow people to invade them.

You hate invaders and raiders, so you want to turn into one? How righteous of you. Wow.

I'm sorry what? Do you even know what nazism is? Because it's clear you have no idea what it is. I suggest you go read up on it, probably by visiting the boards of The NSIA and it's allies .

I love how arguments against keep getting debunk and yet you (plural yous) keep adding new caveats to them: "They never did anything wrong" "Actually they raided people" "Oh... well they're not doing it NOW, at this exact moment" / "They're peacefull natives" "Actually they're not natives" "We'll... they're natives now" / "This will set precedent" (which is a silly and pointless idea anyway) "There's already precedent" "Oh..."

Also, what exactly would my toxic ideology be? Kill evil before it grows enough to kill you? If you wanna be blind to hate, that's your problem, but history is full of people turning a blind eye to hate until it was too late.

The nazi ideology is pure evil, THAT IS A FACT. They have raided in the past, THAT IS ALSO A FACT. They are allied with people who invade people for a living, ALSO A FACT. So, if they are evil, they've done evil and will do evil in the future (according to their ideological needs and allies) why are you still defending them?

Liberation is the only offensive tool the SA has, should we wait until they invade, ruin another region and then try to liberate the region they invaded, when it will be harder to see if it's the right thing to do with contradicted arguments coming in from the invaded? Or should we step in now and show them and their allies that we are watching and willing to take steps against them.

The security council is meant for what ever the majority decides it's meant for, that's how it works, "Security Council Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary".

Oh yeah, almost forgot to say, the extent of my opinion here is: didn't the SC have a freak out less than a week ago because a raider submitted an offensive Liberation? And don't try to bullshit a response to this by saying that last time was different because the author wasn't open about it

Just because you have no idea what happened doesn't mean you can spin it the way you want it It was rejected because of several reasons: it was made by the people it was aimed against, it was supported by the invaders, it glorified the invaders that had invaded the region, it was pointless as the region in question did not have a password to be liberate, the liberation of said region was inevitable and about to be done in a much better way that offered a better result to the region. As such, when the natives took great pains to shed light on the resolution, and asked for the help of the delegates to stop the raider publicity stun (for that is what it was). The majority saw the truth of the matter and did the right thing, they prevented a propaganda bill from getting through. Obviously not the same thing as this bill, with the exception that the results seem to be another victory for the good guys and a piece of propaganda removed. If anything it further proves that you cannot misuse the powers of the SC.


Let's be honest here, there are only 2 kinda of people who voted against this seriously: Nazis and Hypocrites, because no matter how long and hard you shout "Free Speech!!!" even you people draw the line somewhere, be it at child porn, torture, rape propaganda, guro (don't google that), shit eating, real world politics, pony's and so on and so on. If you support Free Speech then there shouldn't be a line, but there clearly is, so why should the line be where you want it to be and not where the clear majority wants it to be?

[NSIA-1]

As sole founder of Antifa, I can tell you right now, I have never and will not lend the Antifa tag or embassy to an operation which targets non Nazi/Fascist regions.

Mmhmm. You've told some big whoppers over the years. You swore up and down you didn't create The Axis Nations Alliance to trick defenders (back when a few defended Nazi regions) into helping you retake Axis Nations Alliance after my guys booted you out. How many times do you reckon you and your GDP buddy visited NAZI EUROPE to deny you were Odobenus, call me names and attack my mental health? You owned up to the lie when you got a bit giddy over briefly retaking Axis Nations Alliance.
__________

DOS player Cora-Proletaurus—one of the game's most notorious and prolific rule-breakers in recent times—created Antifa. Most Gameplayers know he admitted to using a script he knew was illegal to dominate military gameplay. His Nazi-hunting practices and those of his successors have been equally dishonest.

As Vippertooth33 said, he's been hunting Nazis, and anything else he can twist into the shape of one, since 2003. An effort to commend him for his valuable service was scrapped largely because many players were on to him and Antifa: viewtopic.php?p=10418150#p10418150

The player who authored Vippertooth33's Commendation proposal was eventually labeled a 'fascist collaborator' by Vip's 'dear friend and comrade', La Pasionaria. Vip has dedicated many of his region captures to La P, who was well known for labeling anyone who disagreed with his practices fash or fash collaborator—be it moderator, defender or comrade.

IMF wasn't a Nazi or fascist region. Antifa’s founder, Cora-Proletaurus, refounded IMF as an anti-fascist, anti-capitalist region and wrote its original WFE, posted on IMF’s RMB.

Antifa’s founder also refounded Capitalist as an anti-fascist, anti-capitalist region. Capitalist’s disturbing original WFE is posted on its RMB.

If Vip wants everyone to think he’s some benevolent liberator who loves everybody and everything except Nazism, fascism and dictators, maybe he should hand over his capitalist holdings to, you know, capitalists, to prove he walks the talk.

He says in Capitalist’s WFE he rescued it because it was ‘vulnerable to enemy attack’. Problem is, he’s always collaborated with the most hardcore anti-U.S./anti-capitalist players in the game.

Vip has raided and/or refounded many regions, slapping Nazi and fascist labels on them for simply having an embassy with a Nazi or fascist region.

The Seventh Sanctum before Vip grabbed it: http://i.imgur.com/lRcXz4z.jpg

To illustrate how Vippertooth33 distorts the truth and how much you can trust his word, he claims he captured The Seventh Sanctum from The Greater German Reich. If he captured The Seventh Sanctum from TGGR, then he captured it from The Misty Realm too.

Vip thinks folks have one helluva nerve calling him out on his close collaborations with anti-Americans, anti-capitalists and anti-imperialists, and for suspecting he shares similar views because of his attachments to them, yet it’s okay for him to pillory players and regions for their attachments, and label them Nazis and fascists.

Corporate Profit Alliance wasn't a Nazi or fascist region. CPA even had an embassy with Antifa. CPA before Antifa destroyed it: http://imgur.com/VXH817f

Any hint of fascism or Nazism there?

CPA during Antifa's invasion: http://imgur.com/MhMxmxM

Libcom is responsible for CPA's most recent WFE. Libcom rescued that Antifa prize when La Pasionaria was puppet-swept.

The White House: Why is all of Antifa welcomed with open arms in an anti-U.S. region sporting a Stop U.S. Imperialism flag and a founder named Barack Obomber? How can anyone not conclude that Antifa has a tough time recognizing a difference between capitalism, imperialism and fascism?

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=1765733

'Rebelde' was one of La Pasionaria's puppets.

Vippertooth33 has worked closely with anarchists in Genesis Defense Project/Libcom throughout his long career, and continues working with the remains of the anti-capitalist org. An MT Army RO pup is visible in the WFE.

Vip's anarchist buddies use Los Angeles's WFE to spread anti-U.S. propaganda. They do the same in Dubai, Port au Prince and even The American Heartland.

Another of Vippertooth33's Antifa buddies, who helped Vip fabricate Nazism and fascism in regions where none existed, refounded anti-fascist The Hellfire Club, and reformed it to promote his religious agenda. Look at the WFE. The Hellfire Club was wrong about religion, says Satans Little Helper.

I could go on at greater length about what Vip and his close associates hate other than Nazism and fascism. I think I've posted enough to answer the concerns WA members have expressed in this thread, wondering what next to expect from the Communist ex-Red Fleet commander who authored The NSIA's Liberation and has targeted many capitalist regions; the former Red Fleet member who campaigned for The NSIA Lib, famous for his 180s; and, Vippertooth33, famous for slapping fascist labels on non-fascist regions and for collaborating with anti-American, anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist players.

NE is about all that stands in the way of Antifa coming to a theater near you. They're too busy trying to eliminate us to bother with other prey at this time.

http://imgur.com/P3pfKSV <---Me, before Vip's GDP buddies got a little upset over natives making pro-U.S. imperialist posts in my first region. GDP used the region as a way station and maintained a silent presence until we said stuff they didn't like. They insulted some of us in an attempt to divide us and brought WA multies in to endorse a member they thought might be sympathetic to their cause. He wasn't.

If Antifa can ever manage to makes NE disappear, they ain’t gonna roll over and die. They’ve proven when there are no Nazis to hunt, they’ll go after their next favorite food.

Despite the lies you try to spread, Antifa is not a communist region.

Me lie? Not according to the author of The NSIA's Liberation proposal.

You can ask Captain Woodhouse himself. I don't like the guy, but I haven't known him to lie about NationStates stuff —Yelsim/Misley/Caelapes
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=12779763

If I ever thought or said Antifa was a communist region exclusively, I don't recall it.