[DEAFEATED] Condemn "Gregoryisgodistan"

[Free Republics]

I could be mistaken, but as far as I am aware there is no thread ownership in the SC. Provided people are following the site rules they are at liberty to post their comments whether you like them or not.

Quite. And, because almost all the major delegates vote based on gameplay in the Security Council, this won't pass.

I'd like to see the Security Council start commending and condemning roleplayers again, as it did in the early days. An example of such is Security Council resolution #40, which commended Starblaydia, one of the most significant RPers in the history of NS Sports. As an RPer, I'd prefer to vote on commending and condemning fellow RPers every once in a while rather than just gameplayers.

I could be mistaken, but as far as I am aware there is no thread ownership in the SC. Provided people are following the site rules they are at liberty to post their comments whether you like them or not.

I have not asked ownership of this, why I would like to own a thread? I don't feel anything to the comments, what I try to avoid is needless posting, I can't be clearer with this.

The concept of "needless posting" is all too often used in NS Sports these days to stifle discussion. I do not regard it as appropriate for somebody to abrogate to themselves the right to tell other people what issues they can and cannot debate in the OOC threads for our tournaments and it certainly is not appropriate to do that here. People can and will express opinions that you don't agree with and there is nothing wrong with that.

This has gone all sorts of wonkers- but if you intend to reset the debate on the right course that's how I would suggest you steer it: Why is Gregoryisgodistan an exceptional RPer, beyond just things that have happened in the RPed stories he has participated.

In NS Sports, it is very easy to just RP about your own nation and never interact with anybody else if you don't want to. The part of Gregoryisgodistan's RPing that is exceptional, besides what happens in the stories he RPs, is that he regularly collaborates with other RPers in a sub-forum where that isn't a necessity. In NS Sports, there are those who write about the actual sports, which gets very repetitive after a while, and those who write stories that involve their own nations, but the RPs that I've always enjoyed participating in and reading the most have always been collaborative RPs where characters from my nations have interacted with characters from other nations and Gregoryisgodistan has probably been my most prolific partner in collaborative RP over the years. Its also quite a bit of fun when the governments of my nations are often villains in their own right to engage in IC conflict with a villainous nation whose ideology inevitably leads to conflict with my nations.

[Electrum]

I would like to echo Free Republics' sentiment here.

First point <and I know this is irrelevant to the proposal at hand, but it is worth addressing>:

I'd like to see the Security Council start commending and condemning roleplayers again, as it did in the early days. An example of such is Security Council resolution #40, which commended Starblaydia, one of the most significant RPers in the history of NS Sports. As an RPer, I'd prefer to vote on commending and condemning fellow RPers every once in a while rather than just gameplayers.

The last commendation for any roleplayer that I could find was Yohannes just two years ago. I definitely think that there is an imbalance as to the now gameplay dominance of the Security Council and its use to commend/condemn nations that roleplayers have nothing to do with. Sometimes it is a bit annoying to see a commendation or a condemnation which is promptly repealed just a few short months later. Perhaps it is the unwillingness for roleplayers to engage in gameplay, or perhaps because no one (active) in our community has the experience to both write a resolution and advocate for it but definitely something needs to be done.

It is absolutely disheartening to hear this:

And, because almost all the major delegates vote based on gameplay in the Security Council, this won't pass.

There needs to be some balance here. I don't know how, but it should definitely be achieved -- this is a discussion we should have. Again, Yohannes was the last commendation I could find, the last commendation related to sports was Commendation 53, for Commerce Heights, and this was five years ago. I can think of many worthy candidates which are similarly qualified.

Now, turning to the point at hand:

Gregoryisgodistan is an exceptional roleplayer who has always interacted with nations that have reached out to him. He's created several conflicts and has really set the tone for some of the roleplaying on the NS Sports forums, as well as being known for his gratuitously violent songs in the WorldVision Song Contest.

In the Games of the IX Olympiad, one of the largest events of the forum held annually, he caused an international incident whereby one of his athletes caused the attempted murder of one athlete, and indirectly caused the death of a monarch of another nation. Yes, this was controversial OOCly, but there was an undoubtable impact in his roleplaying on the roleplays of others. In other competitions, he has waged war with the Free Republics and Saintland. I'm sure Free Republics can expand on this more, but the depth to which Gregoryisgodistan has developed his Kim Jong-Il-like character and his villainy over many years and the relationship the two OOC users have had is commendable. FFR might not see eye-to-eye with me in recent times, but I can't deny how well they both roleplay with each other. Also, there have been several storylines in the World Cup in the formation of a regional defensive pact against GGS. Again, it is not very common to see people roleplay geopolitical relations in NS Sports, but here is Gregoryisgodistan creating that. Over on the Nationstates forum, he is well known to send particularly gory and violent songs in the WorldVision Song Contest. See Talvezout naming the violence award over him, Sarian calling him the benchmark, etc. They could have easily chosen the many other joke/violent entries that have arisen over the years, but his name sticks out.

TLDR; he involves other people in his roleplays, even newbies, creates real controversies, developed the character over many years, makes people roleplay what they wouldn't otherwise roleplay, is infamous in two subforums for his behaviour.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

I would agree with both Free Republics and Electrum that there is definitely an imbalance in the number of C&Cs awarded to Roleplayers compared to Gameplayers.

Some of the things Electrum mentioned in his post would be great if included in a C&C for Greg.. However, we can only vote on what's in front of us and this Condemnation, while quite well written, doesn't make a strong enough case.

[Drasnia]

I'm with BBD. I didn't know much about Greg, but all the evidence points to him being a really good RP'er who gets a lot of people involved. That's something that is very commendable (or rather, condemnable) IMO, and I will always support C&C's of worthy RP'ers. However, I will echo that this draft needs to point out all those things exposited in this thread if it stands a chance of passing.

[Imperium Anglorum]

I would agree with both Free Republics and Electrum that there is definitely an imbalance in the number of C&Cs awarded to Roleplayers compared to Gameplayers.

I too agree with Free Republics and Electrum. But I would note that whilst it is an unfortunate reality, it is nevertheless the reality we live in.

[Southern Democratic States]

Gregoryisgodistan is probably the best RPer for involving other people. A good example is when Free Republics wanted his leader to be assassinated so he asked Greg to do the job. At this time I was active as Miley World and Greg decided that the FFR leader was going to be assassinated during a soccer game between Miley World and Free Republics but before making his plan real, Greg asked me if I had any objections, and I said that's fine. It was kinda cool to be involved in this and I really appreciated that Greg asked me if he can do it during a game involving my nation. Greg made 3 RPs about this:

Part 1: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=303819&p=21060138&hilit=pitch+inspectors#p21060138

Part 2: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=303819&p=21084999&hilit=pitch+inspectors#p21084999

Part 3: The assassination of Consul Piazza:
https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=303819&p=21111664&hilit=pitch+inspectors#p21111664

Then here's my RP about this story (between Greg's RP and mine, a feminist activist was accused of the crime committed by the two Gregoryisgodistani assassins): https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=303819&p=21117201&hilit=pitch+inspectors#p21117201

[San Jose Guayabal]

I would agree with both Free Republics and Electrum that there is definitely an imbalance in the number of C&Cs awarded to Roleplayers compared to Gameplayers.

I too agree with Free Republics and Electrum. But I would note that whilst it is an unfortunate reality, it is nevertheless the reality we live in.

And why not trying to change it?

[Merchpolis]

OOC: Condemning player nations sets a poor precedent and doesn't actually do anything.

I'm aware of it, no need of your comment, thank you.

You ask for thoughts in the beginning post, and then tell me there is no need for my comment when I post my opinion on the manner? You are more than free to pursue this issue if you wish to, I just think that this is a waste of time. NationStates is inherently a roleplay website, and if we start condemning nations for roleplaying in a manner they wish to this establishes a precedent. If you wish to condemn a nation you are more than free to, but I think the WA should be left out of this.

[We Are Not the NSA]

As one of the more active gameplayers who participates on this forum, I'd just like to say that I do not support the idea of condemning a nation for purely in context actions, but I can be convinced in regards to a commendation. Imo, commendations and condemnations are meant as rewards/punishments for a nation's contributions to the NationStates community as a whole. As Southern Democratic States argues above, Gregoryisgodistan is a well known, well liked, and skilled roleplayer. I would much rather commend him (not saying I do or do not in this specific case) for that than condemn him for roleplaying as a dictator.

[Southern Democratic States]

As one of the more active gameplayers who participates on this forum, I'd just like to say that I do not support the idea of condemning a nation for purely in context actions, but I can be convinced in regards to a commendation. Imo, commendations and condemnations are meant as rewards/punishments for a nation's contributions to the NationStates community as a whole. As Southern Democratic States argues above, Gregoryisgodistan is a well known, well liked, and skilled roleplayer. I would much rather commend him (not saying I do or do not in this specific case) for that than condemn him for roleplaying as a dictator.

Gregoryisgodistan is the most evil nation on NS, you can't commend him, it's like commending North Korea, and I think he's worst than North Korea.

[Seteh]

Eh. It's RP. I prefer condemnations and commendations for GPers that actually affect NS as a whole.

[Nephara]

Eh. It's RP. I prefer condemnations and commendations for GPers that actually affect NS as a whole.

Such as? Raiders/defenders are just making use of an oversight in the game engine that nobody's bothered to patch out, an irrelevance to any nation with a founder. I'd guarantee you none of the past hundred commandations/condemnations has affected more than the gameplay subcommunity of NS in the slightest, bar maybe inconveniencing a vulnerable region and forcing its residents to relocate. And if your subcommunity can get a disproportionate amount of attention on the WA, why not let actual contributors to the forum with more than Two posts - such as the RP community - have a moment in the spotlight?

[Cedoria]

"The Ambassador of the People's Republic of Cedoria supports the condemnation of this vile nation, given its long and egregious track record of extensive, grotesque and multiple violations of its own citizens rights and its rampant disregard for the rights and security of other nations. The People's Republic urges all other Ambassador to support this worthy condemnation effort as a vital step on the road to legitimising efforts to ending the threat posed to international peace and security by Gregoryisgodistan. With the World Assembly registering it's disapproval, it can be clear that this body is serious and will not neglect the extraneous violations of the peace by individuals nations who persistently and exceptionally do so."

[The Sky Pineapple]

The Sky Pineapplean government is appalled by some, though not all, of the policies of the nation in question. However, after extensive discussion within our Senate, we are choosing to refrain from participating in this vote for the following reasons:
-Fearing retaliation from Gregoryisgodistan and believing that it is best for the growth of The Sky Pineapple to avoid the view of these sorts of nations entirely, and seeing no gain in risking our nation to support or condemn such a controversial cause
-Acknowledging that there are far worse nations than Gregoryisgodistan, and seeing no reason to call this nation out unless they declare violent intentions against the World Assembly as a whole, and also acknowledging that Gregoryisgodistan is not, in fact, a member of the World Assembly, and is therefore not bound to meet its high standards.
-Also being relatively new to The World Assembly, and not yet understanding the implications and consequences of this condemnation.

[Elke and Elba]

Please, only criticism or feedbacks, not what you think if it'll pass or not.

Much appreciated.

It seems you don't have an understanding on how the SC works.

It's a bit fruitless giving criticism or feedback when it's already submitted. You'll find that most WA regulars don't give a flying flute giving criticism or feedback because any advice given is wasted advice. The underlying advice I think Bhang Bhang Duc and the rest have said is pretty overt in fact - don't submit a proposal and yet ask for criticism or feedback because you're wasting everybody's time.

See what Topid said:

It appears you are under the impression your judgement on what should be posted here matters more than any one else. This is not the case, you have no more authority over determining what is "needless" in this thread than I do, because there is no thread ownership here. You're just a participant in this debate- like everyone else.

Anywho, as someone who's been around the WA, and the Security Council specifically, for a long time, I try to give helpful advice in these types of threads. As I see it, you're going about this all wrong. Posters have repeatedly indicated here that doing in-character bad deeds is not enough alone to earn their vote for a condemnation. And you might not believe it- but that has been historically true. Nations who get condemned for in-character reasons usually obtain that status because the author (and possibly others the nominee has RPed with) convince the active people here that the player behind the nation is exceptionally good at/clever/devoted to Role-Playing a bad character.

This has gone all sorts of wonkers- but if you intend to reset the debate on the right course that's how I would suggest you steer it: Why is Gregoryisgodistan an exceptional RPer, beyond just things that have happened in the RPed stories he has participated.

Maybe you should learn to take that feedback first, and stop pushing your antics that might be acceptable elsewhere on the WA, which have separate ways of working - that are dissimilar from both GP and RP.

Anyway, this reeks of a self-commend/self-condemn like some of those region ones, so I'm going automatically opposed.

[Ella2 6]

I don't think this resolution stands up...

Acknowledging that Gregoryisgodistan has been governed by Lord Almighty Gregory with a repressive hand, violating even the most basic human rights approved by the World Assembly;

I cannot see this argument being valid as gregoryisgodistan is not even a member of the WA. To condemn him on the basis on "violating even the most basic human rights approved by the World Assembly," is to say that the WA has power outside of its own jurisdiction. The WA has no right to enforce its laws on nations which are not part of it. Since the very basis of this resolution is to condemn gregoryisgodistan for violating the sapient rights, the argument is invalid, at least to me it is.

I mean, sure. The WA has condemned non-WA nations, however, they were not condemned on violation of rights set by the WA.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Lord Almighty Gregory released a statement on the proposal at hand.

"San Jose Guayabal is a wicked, heathen nation and now they are trying to condemn us through the World Assembly. This will not stand! In the event this heinous proposal passes, we will launch 2,000 nuclear weapons at each nation on our Enemy List. And by the way, stupid Guaya Beans, Saintland isn't on our Enemy List anymore. East Saintland is but not the friendly West Saintland.

"So what if we have slaves? So what if there are over 100 capital crimes, including farting, burping, picking your nose, and saying the name of a certain fruit that starts with C and ends with t? So what if we throw people in reeducation camps for bad grammar? I am God and that is all that counts. Death to the World Assembly!"

I confess that I find his response both alarming and terrifying; however, I agree with the spirit of this condemnation and see no reason to oppose it.

[West Eastonia]

, what I try to avoid is needless posting, I can't be clearer with this.

You're not very good at it, though.

[Nephara]

Anyway, this reeks of a self-commend/self-condemn like some of those region ones, so I'm going automatically opposed.

The two users share nothing in common apart from region (one of three, so, you know, odds are pretty good for that) and 'posting in the same subforum'.

[Gothalania]

Basics of Law

Having read the proposed resolution of the Security Council of the World Assembly for what are urged to condemn to Gregoryisgodistan proposed by San Jose Guayabal for crimes against less humanity in the virtual world, -in the real world surely it is pending summary trial and would be shot or hanged...

Viewed

Forum threads representatives and ministers of other regions and nations have exercised their inalienable right to express their view that conditions the vote and,

Considering That

The statements expressed by the dictator Gregory, totally exceed any way cynical and evil, as manifested, would condemn tested for conditioning,

Resolve

The High Court for Human Rights in the International Affairs of Principality of Gothalania, must condemn the events in the nation of Gregoryisgodistan to set an example for other nations and / or regions of the same kind receive the same worthiness and destination, and dictators are removed office, a new constitution is drafted, a head of state observed by the WA and free elections are held, in order to bring their people to democratic normality, setting all the relevant case law is chosen.


Accordingly,
the High Court and the Principality of Gothalania representing you, we fail to condemn the barbarity of the nation in question and successive they arise.

-

Copy of the resolution is given to our beloved President mousebumples representative of the Europeia and how many authorities they may apply

.


Soliciting,

To all the present, see and hear, give a positive vote to sanction it, save it and promote it.
Love and Peace


Affectionately,

HMSRH Jordi I, Prince of Gothalania.

[Wallenburg]

The last commendation for any roleplayer that I could find was Yohannes just two years ago.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_pa ... /start=192

[Electrum]

The last commendation for any roleplayer that I could find was Yohannes just two years ago.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_pa ... /start=192

From my reading, the particular player you quoted was commended for their gameplay activities in the General Assembly, not roleplaying in one of the Diplomacy forums. Yohannes' commendation (which was well deserved I might add, as I admire his GE+T threads) is entirely based on his roleplay work.

[Johann12]

Trust me there are nations worse than Gregoryisgodistan.

[Wallenburg]

https://www.nationstates.net/page=WA_pa ... /start=192

From my reading, the particular player you quoted was commended for their gameplay activities in the General Assembly, not roleplaying in one of the Diplomacy forums. Yohannes' commendation (which was well deserved I might add, as I admire his GE+T threads) is entirely based on his roleplay work.

The General Assembly is very much centered around roleplay. Some of the end result may be gameside, but all of the work is based in roleplay. SP is very much a roleplayer, even if he RPs on a different forum than you do.

But if you instead meant that you haven't seen any recent commendations exclusively and unquestionably referring to roleplay, then you would be correct.

[Tahkranul]

Colonel Hiram Gerrantz -- a tall, fit, scarred near-human man with purple hair fading to grey and protruding red eyes and a crisp uniform adored only by rank and nation insignia and a single medal -- rises sharply from his seat to snap to attention and breaks his usual silent voting habit to bark out his opinion.

"Tahkranul votes in favor of this condemnation! Our people suffered under such a tyrant, but after four hundred years we finally proved he wasn't so "immortal" after all. Allowing a deluded, violent psychotic to remain in such power is unacceptable. The self-satisfied "Security Council" needs to pull their heads --
*ahem*
"The, ah, Security Council would do well to bear in mind the safety and liberties of the member nation that this... despot continuously threatens and harms, if not also the subjects currently enduring his rule."
He sits down sharply and resumes his usual stiff posture as if nothing happened.