[DEFEATED] Repeal "Liberate Utopia" (by Yodle)

[Yodle]

Entirely misses the point of my telegram. My telegram speaks about norms-setting and the manner in which we establish and enforce such norms on this site. Existing resolutions, like the one here, which helps to codify that norm and establish standards of behaviour ought not be repealed. Repeal is simply something which makes such action longer reprehensible.

I disagree. If actions are reprehensible, then the relevant motion is a condemnation. That should indeed stand as a record, unless significant actions are taken in mitigation.
A liberation, however, is a practical step taken with the usual intent of allowing natives to regain control of their region. Unless I'm missing something here, the natives are in control. The liberation only serves to prevent them passwording the region should they choose to do so. I see no reason why the SC should continue to intervene in their affairs.

Why must there be a repeal? It seems to me that the reason there must be a repeal is nothing more than gilding your nation description.

And you want to be dog in the manger about it?

The author appears to be cleaning house for the SC. It's not exactly glamorous work, but their efforts shouldn't be rejected just because they didn't consult the regulars. I see a good case for saying that the original motion no longer serves a purpose, and that is sufficient grounds for proposing a repeal.

Couldn't've said it any better.

[The Stalker]

Against, this is a piece of NS history, just because you weren't around then and can't see it's value doesn't mean it doesn't have any.

[Marid]

I'm FOR it now. I have heard that there is history behind it but unless someone can describe what this history is I'm not sure if it makes sense to keep a resolution that doesn't protect anyone and doesn't address any problems. You could make an argument for historical relevance but people are just hinting at it so far.

[Keam]

In 2009, we liberated the region. I was involved with one of my alts. If we allow the region to be passworded, and die then we have failed our mission. I believe that the region should be liberated.

[Melon feud]

Against, this is a piece of NS history, just because you weren't around then and can't see it's value doesn't mean it doesn't have any.

"Copy that!",,, twist/ pound the dagger deeper than ever,,,, werks fer our ideology!

[Yodle]

In 2009, we liberated the region. I was involved with one of my alts. If we allow the region to be passworded, and die then we have failed our mission. I believe that the region should be liberated.

The region is clearly already dead and has been since 2014. You do realize that liberations only block DELEGATE imposed passwords, regardless of the liberation the current founder can put up a password without anyone stopping him/her. So I don't know where your reasoning is coming from because it's wrong. Our intervention is no longer necessary, if they need another liberation they can try and get a new one passed, one that has actual relevant information to today.

[Yodle]

Against, this is a piece of NS history, just because you weren't around then and can't see it's value doesn't mean it doesn't have any.

History can be retained in fact books or on the forums. Even if this is repealed it's never going to leave the SC resolutions, so I don't see where you're coming from. In fact, if you are so set on preserving history how about you go talk to the natives and get the whole history (not the references to events in the liberation resolution) and record it in a Factbook? That seems like a much better way to accomplish what you want.

[Yodle]

Against, this is a piece of NS history, just because you weren't around then and can't see it's value doesn't mean it doesn't have any.

History can be retained in fact books or on the forums. Even if this is repealed it's never going to leave the SC resolutions, so I don't see where you're coming from. In fact, if you are so set on preserving history how about you go talk to the natives and get the whole history (not the references to events in the liberation resolution) and record it in a Factbook? That seems like a much better way to accomplish what you want.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=655963 This is a history Factbook. Clearly much more effective than a SC Liberation resolution that is no longer needed. This is how you preserve history.

[The Stalker]

This is just a badge hunt, plain and simple. I think NS history should be preserved, and it most certainly cannot be done nearly as effectively by "fact books or on the forums" as you suggest, most people only know anything about Utopia because it has a badge, you take that away and to 99% of the players it's just a region named Utopia. It deprives the masses and let's be honest you'd know nothing of that region if you didn't see it's liberation.

Also there is an 'edit' feature, you don't need to triple post.

[Deladara]

I think we need to face facts here. Repealing the resolution to liberate Utopia is, in itself, a liberation. By giving control of Utopia to its previous owners, we are liberating it from the oppresive government that has done nothing in the last two years to improve the infrastructure of Utopia. If you were to look at Utopia's home page, you would notice something right away. There is nothing there, everything about it is lifeless. You fear oppressing the population? What population, there are two people in the entire region. The region is like a little cottage in the middle of nowhere. They have no communication with the outside world. However, by allowing people to take Utopia, you allow them to shape Utopia into a better region than it could ever hope to be on its own.

So, while it may seem bad to take away Utopia's freedom, we are actually giving them something they could never have gotten on their own. I urge all to vote in favor of the resolution, for the benefit of Utopia, and possibly the World Assembly as a whole.

[Yodle]

This is just a badge hunt, plain and simple. I think NS history should be preserved, and it most certainly cannot be done nearly as effectively by "fact books or on the forums" as you suggest, most people only know anything about Utopia because it has a badge, you take that away and to 99% of the players it's just a region named Utopia. It deprives the masses and let's be honest you'd know nothing of that region if you didn't see it's liberation.

Also there is an 'edit' feature, you don't need to triple post.

So your only argument is your speculations on my motivation to author this and a shiny badge in a region that is inactive and dead? Go on Utopia's region page, tell me what you can infer about the region just by looking at it, aside from the badge. Nothing, absolutely no substance there at all... And your claim that the badge makes people notice it is nonsense, because I was the first person to notice it in over 100 days despite it having a badge... Even by reading the liberation resolution all I can learn is that they were raided in 2009, nothing about the natives or the previous founder or anything. Some things just disappear, and clearly Utopia is one of those things, even the only two people left only go on to make sure their nation doesn't CTE. The very forum posted on their page doesn't even exist anymore.

There's a reason there's only 10 liberations are still in existence, and that reason is that all the others were repealed when they were no longer needed. The SC's liberations are not the platform to recognize historic regions, they are only meant to be there so the natives can take their region back. Which they did. Case closed. Any other rhetoric is just arguing to keep in place useless resolutions that serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Liberations are not meant to last forever, keep that in mind.

[Imperium Anglorum]

So, while it may seem bad to take away Utopia's freedom, we are actually giving them something they could never have gotten on their own. I urge all to vote in favor of the resolution, for the benefit of Utopia, and possibly the World Assembly as a whole.

Considering that Europeia has voted strongly against the resolution, I certainly doubt that you can imply that you speak for Europeia with your flag... being that of Europeia.

[The Stalker]

This is just a badge hunt, plain and simple. I think NS history should be preserved, and it most certainly cannot be done nearly as effectively by "fact books or on the forums" as you suggest, most people only know anything about Utopia because it has a badge, you take that away and to 99% of the players it's just a region named Utopia. It deprives the masses and let's be honest you'd know nothing of that region if you didn't see it's liberation.

Also there is an 'edit' feature, you don't need to triple post.

So your only argument is your speculations on my motivation to author this and a shiny badge in a region that is inactive and dead? Go on Utopia's region page, tell me what you can infer about the region just by looking at it, aside from the badge. Nothing, absolutely no substance there at all... And your claim that the badge makes people notice it is nonsense, because I was the first person to notice it in over 100 days despite it having a badge... Even by reading the liberation resolution all I can learn is that they were raided in 2009, nothing about the natives or the previous founder or anything. Some things just disappear, and clearly Utopia is one of those things, even the only two people left only go on to make sure their nation doesn't CTE. The very forum posted on their page doesn't even exist anymore.

There's a reason there's only 10 liberations are still in existence, and that reason is that all the others were repealed when they were no longer needed. The SC's liberations are not the platform to recognize historic regions, they are only meant to be there so the natives can take their region back. Which they did. Case closed. Any other rhetoric is just arguing to keep in place useless resolutions that serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Liberations are not meant to last forever, keep that in mind.

Again my interest is preserving NS history, going around repealing things willy-nilly doesn't sit right with me. I've played this game nearly since it's creation, 13 years, what gives you the right to dismiss the history and actions of all those who came before you.

Looking at the vote, I think most folks disagree with your logic. Case Closed.

[Johann12]

Countercampaign as well:

Good morning, Wrapper,

There is no reason to repeal "Liberate Utopia". The only argument which the author presents is that it is old. The fact that something is old is no reason to repeal it.

Things that are old have intrinsic value due to their age. They inform us of the history of this game. They tell us about struggles of the past and their purpose is to establish norms of behaviour. When we pass resolutions in the Security Council, the NationStates community as a whole sets the baseline of acceptable behaviour and what we believe is correct.

Repealing this resolution implicitly declares that the actions which the Alliance of Dictators took are acceptable.

If you believe that people should not destroy regions, put in invisible passwords to close them down, and eject their natives — then you should not approve this repeal. Approving it sends a message that what these raiders did in 2009 is acceptable today. Considering that the threat of invasion is just as strong as it was in the past, this is not a message that endangers regional security.

I hope that you join us in rejecting this attempt to legitimise regional destruction. Considering that this was submitted without any discussion, deliberation, or drafting in the Security Council forum, this will also give time for the author to reconsider the broader implications of his actions. You can withdraw your approval of the resolution at the link in the spoiler below.

Yours,

Ardortia

I tend to agree, old things aren't necessarily bad things. Now get off my lawn.

I agree with ardortia thats why I'm against in repealing "liberate utopia"

[Namportu]

Please vote to let the liberation remain (Vote NO). Utopia is happy with the status quo.

[Namportu]

I think we need to face facts here. Repealing the resolution to liberate Utopia is, in itself, a liberation. By giving control of Utopia to its previous owners, we are liberating it from the oppresive government that has done nothing in the last two years to improve the infrastructure of Utopia. If you were to look at Utopia's home page, you would notice something right away. There is nothing there, everything about it is lifeless. You fear oppressing the population? What population, there are two people in the entire region. The region is like a little cottage in the middle of nowhere. They have no communication with the outside world. However, by allowing people to take Utopia, you allow them to shape Utopia into a better region than it could ever hope to be on its own.

So, while it may seem bad to take away Utopia's freedom, we are actually giving them something they could never have gotten on their own. I urge all to vote in favor of the resolution, for the benefit of Utopia, and possibly the World Assembly as a whole.

Anyone who desires to move to Utopia is welcome to do so. There is no need to repeal the liberation. I'm not seeing the logic in this post.

[Wrapper]

Please vote to let the liberation remain (Vote NO). Utopia is happy with the status quo.

Thank you for posting. This reaffirms my against vote.

[Yodle]

Please vote to let the liberation remain (Vote NO). Utopia is happy with the status quo.

Thank you for posting. This reaffirms my against vote.

So it seems, the native wish is to keep the liberation so therefore it shall stay

[Marid]

In 2009, we liberated the region. I was involved with one of my alts. If we allow the region to be passworded, and die then we have failed our mission. I believe that the region should be liberated.

Thanks for clearing that up. If that's true, and the people who live in the region now want the liberation to stand, then I think that that's a good reason to vote against.

[Yodle]

In 2009, we liberated the region. I was involved with one of my alts. If we allow the region to be passworded, and die then we have failed our mission. I believe that the region should be liberated.

Thanks for clearing that up. If that's true, and the people who live in the region now want the liberation to stand, then I think that that's a good reason to vote against.

The region has a founder, whether the liberation is there or not doesn't change whether a founder can impose a password. Liberations only stop delegate imposed passwords, not founder imposed passwords. I don't care if people argue against this because the natives don't want it, but it has become very apparent that the opposition is using a misinformation campaign to get people to vote against this. People need to know how liberations work and actually look at the region.

The fact the my mere asking of why delegates voted against has resulted in three people actually looking at the proposal and realizing they misread it/didn't look at the region is very telling. This opposition support is not coming from people's informed decisions, it's coming from cheap tactics to trick people into believing nonsensical things about what liberations actually do.. If people are going to argue against the proposal, they should at least use factual claims and not random stuff they thought up of to get people to vote their way.

[Deladara]

So, while it may seem bad to take away Utopia's freedom, we are actually giving them something they could never have gotten on their own. I urge all to vote in favor of the resolution, for the benefit of Utopia, and possibly the World Assembly as a whole.

Considering that Europeia has voted strongly against the resolution, I certainly doubt that you can imply that you speak for Europeia with your flag... being that of Europeia.

Considering I was only flying the Europeian flag because I was carrying out a mission in a foreign region, you should come up with a better argument than that.

Furthermore, 57% of Europeians voting against the resolution, that is not a strong resistance to the resolution

[Deladara]

I think we need to face facts here. Repealing the resolution to liberate Utopia is, in itself, a liberation. By giving control of Utopia to its previous owners, we are liberating it from the oppresive government that has done nothing in the last two years to improve the infrastructure of Utopia. If you were to look at Utopia's home page, you would notice something right away. There is nothing there, everything about it is lifeless. You fear oppressing the population? What population, there are two people in the entire region. The region is like a little cottage in the middle of nowhere. They have no communication with the outside world. However, by allowing people to take Utopia, you allow them to shape Utopia into a better region than it could ever hope to be on its own.

So, while it may seem bad to take away Utopia's freedom, we are actually giving them something they could never have gotten on their own. I urge all to vote in favor of the resolution, for the benefit of Utopia, and possibly the World Assembly as a whole.

Anyone who desires to move to Utopia is welcome to do so. There is no need to repeal the liberation. I'm not seeing the logic in this post.

I don't know about you, but I don't know many people who would want to move to a region with only two residents. Furthermore, the region is basically completely inactive, no one wants to join a region with no active participants. We need to allow regions to absorb Utopia into their region to build up its status. We are doing absolutely no harm by allowing Utopia to be overtaken, and the two citizens there will barely even be effected. This resolution is the best option for this region to either build it up, or just get rid of it if no one wants it. It's been four years since they've been liberated, I think it's time for a change from the status quo.

[Enderbury]

Enderbury will vote in favour of this proposal. As circumstances change, so must the law.

[Tailanda]

I wonder what's going on in this world. The people in Utopia need us to bring freedom to them but we destroyed people's hope by voting against this resolution. Utopia brought this to us and asking for our help because they believe in World Assembly why we decide to left them behind.
Tailanda totally support people of Utopia fight for their freedom and take down the dictator rulers via any means, we are on their back no matter what the result of this resolution is.

[Wrapper]

I wonder what's going on in this world. The people in Utopia need us to bring freedom to them but we destroyed people's hope by voting against this resolution. Utopia brought this to us and asking for our help because they believe in World Assembly why we decide to left them behind.
Tailanda totally support people of Utopia fight for their freedom and take down the dictator rulers via any means, we are on their back no matter what the result of this resolution is.

What are you talking about? Namportu is the only native in Utopia and has expressed a desire for status quo. There is no fight to be had.