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[DEFEATED] Condemn Macedonia

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Adytus
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[DEFEATED] Condemn Macedonia

Postby Adytus » Mon May 30, 2016 7:35 pm

IC: From the office of Mike Lynn, ambassador of Adytus to the World Assembly - "this is the first world assembly resolution presented by the nation of Adytus, and there are several issues that have presented challenges so far. Firstly, bad timing. When this office presented the proposal the first time around, the Arab League was at threat, and a liberation needed to come to vote before this. I was not aware of this, and I apologize. I am glad to see they have taken their region back. Moreover, the proposal reached queue shortly before I asked it removed. The second time around, there was an issue collecting delegates. I am not sure why, but perhaps the community can help me change that, and get this proposal at vote. If you have any tips you would like to register with Mike Lynn, please post a communication in this topic and my office will get back to you as soon as possible. We highly appreciate your time. Best Regards."

Log # 2: "Having been informed of what Macedonia is responsible for by older players, my office has decided to change the direction of this repeal, and attempt to replace SC # 1. There are several issues the republic has with the lack of detail, and presentation presented in SC # 1, and we wish to correct this. Furthermore, I believe that updating the resolution with more information will prevent nation's from making the same mistake I did, and draft a repeal proposal based on what was provided in SC # 1 and then find out their is more to the puzzle. Further detail will also do more justice to some of the terrible actions conducted by Macedonia described in this thread. I still find issue with the clause in SC # 1 that addresses factbook colors, and the republic believes a better argument can be made to present Macedonia's condemnable behavior. I would like to apologize for my first draft, I was not aware of all that the invaders had done, but we can fix that, and make sure others know as well."

Log # 3: "After further discussion in this thread, and with other nations, the republic has decided the best course of action would be to further condemned Macedonia for their actions. Doing so will greatly increase any attempts to repeal SC # 1 for some of the arguments it has presented; however, my nation would like to hear more discussion on this option. There has only been one edit to the proposed condemnation of Macedonia. A clause was added to the beginning of the proposal to recognize that the region is already condemned. We are still not entirely sure whether to condemn Macedonia, or attempt to condemn Macedon again. Any thoughts on this issue would be welcome."

Repeal “Condemn Macedon” Draft # 2

Argument: The Security Council,

Recognizing Macedon to be the first region ever condemned by the World Assembly; however, the arguments made by the author in SC # 1 lack detail regarding their actions, which makes it hard for current generations of nations to understand Macedon’s importance,

Noting Resolution #1 describes the coloring of world factbook entries as distasteful and grotesque, hardly something worthy of note by this council, and an observation too opinionated to force a condemnation.

Believing that such rhetoric does nothing to remove Macedon’s [or any other region’s] right to support whatever colors they choose for their world factbook entry, and that such language should be removed from this council’s records in the name of regional expression.

Further Believing that Macedon is truly worthy of condemnation by the Security Council for their recorded actions, and that a better argument will be presented to this council swiftly after SC # 1 is repealed.

Acknowledging that the region of Macedon is no longer the main region for the condemned party, and that the council wishes to reapply the condemnation on the region of Macedonia.

Hoping that regions still under Macedon control will be able to develop communities like the region of France. The repeal of SC # 1 only seeks to better confirm this council’s commitment to those communities by better outlining the condemnable behavior of Macedon.

Hereby Repeals: “Condemn Macedon.”


Repeal “Condemn Macedon” Draft # 1 [DISREGARDED]

Argument: The Security Council,

Recognizing Macedon to be the first region ever condemned by the World Assembly; however, the arguments made by the author no longer qualify Macedon for international recognition.

Noting Resolution #1 describes the coloring of world fact-book entries as distasteful and grotesque, hardly something worthy of note by this council, and an observation to opinionated to force a condemnation.

Believing that such rhetoric does nothing to remove Macedon’s right to support whatever colors chosen for their world fact-book entry, and that such language should be removed from this council’s records in the name of regional expression.

Accepting the fact that Macedon has colonized several regions; however, such practice is common throughout the world, and is no longer something of note, regardless of whatever importance nation’s may invest in region names like Pakistan, Finland, or Belarus.

Further Believing that if Macedon is truly worthy of condemnation by the Security Council, a better argument should be presented to this council than what is stated in Resolution #1.

Acknowledging what little impact Macedon holds in the greater scope of world affairs, and that the region condemned by this council is not even the main region of the condemned party.

Admitting that the condemnation may in fact be responsible for the continuation of Macedonia’s colonies, and that the removal of the condemnation may be more effective in reopening the regions that have been lost.

Hoping that regions still under Macedon control will be able to develop communities like the region of France. The repeal of Resolution #1 may have more of an effective in changing the status quo rather than years of being condemned.

Hereby Repeals: “Condemn Macedon.”

Condemn Macedonia Draft # 1

Description: The Security Council,

Observing that Macedon is condemned by this council; however, the arguments presented by SC # 1 fail to outline all the horrific actions carried out by the condemned party, and this resolution wishes to further outline these offense for generations to come.

Acknowledging the impact Macedonia [and the region of Macedon] has held in the greater scope of world affairs, their monstrous actions a major contribution to the creation of this council, and its mission of spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

Noting that Macedonia was one of the first ever invader entities, adopting a win-at-all-costs approach, and conducting themselves with such extremity that even noted invaders of the time period, such as Todd McCloud, condemned them for their actions.

Recognizing the terrible game over situations that Macedonian agents would impose on helpless regions; they would take power for themselves by pretending to befriend natives of a region, place a password on the region, and then brutally force the native community from their home, often with racist gloating involved.

Appalled that the region found the practice of forum crashing acceptable in order to achieve a means; the Macedonians destroyed a regions hub of communication and commerce, and such practice should be universally condemned.

Encouraging good-natured competitiveness amongst rivals, and conflicting forces; the behavior conducted by the condemnable region is highly discouraged by this council, and the international community; Macedonia will serve as an example to this commitment.

Disgusted by the number of regions Macedonia claims as colonies, and has for more than a decade; moreover, these regions hold a particular interest to the international community, their names having great significance to many nations [Belarus, Czech Republic, Kurdistan, etc.], and should be freed at the first opportunity.

Understanding that when Macedonia was an active invader organization, their destruction of regional communities was described as prolific, and that this horrific activity continued for years without balance, destroying numerous homes in a revolting fashion.

Hereby Condemns: Macedonia.
Last edited by Wrapper on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:10 pm, edited 12 times in total.
Reason: MODEDIT: Defeated.
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Postby Cormactopia II » Mon May 30, 2016 7:40 pm

This is a well written proposal and while I have a lot of respect for Todd's efforts back when Macedon was relevant, I agree it's past time to repeal this condemnation. It's just giving Macedon a permanent place in history that it doesn't deserve. Condemnation may have been appropriate then, but now it would be best to just let Macedon fade from memory.

Full support from me.
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Postby Adytus » Mon May 30, 2016 8:06 pm

Cormactopia II wrote:This is a well written proposal and while I have a lot of respect for Todd's efforts back when Macedon was relevant, I agree it's past time to repeal this condemnation. It's just giving Macedon a permanent place in history that it doesn't deserve. Condemnation may have been appropriate then, but now it would be best to just let Macedon fade from memory.

Full support from me.


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Postby Westercourt » Mon May 30, 2016 8:16 pm

Wait, this didn't reach quorum? Huh. Well, full support regardless.
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Postby Adytus » Mon May 30, 2016 8:23 pm

Westercourt wrote:Wait, this didn't reach quorum? Huh. Well, full support regardless.


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Postby We Are Not the NSA » Tue May 31, 2016 7:12 pm

Adytus wrote: The Security Council,

Recognizing Macedon to be the first region ever condemned by the World Assembly; however, the arguments made by the author no longer qualify Macedon for international recognition.


Noting Resolution #1 describes the coloring of world fact-book entries as distasteful and grotesque, hardly something worthy of note by this council, and an observation to opinionated to force a condemnation.

“To” should be “too”. “Fact-book” should be “factbook”.

Believing that such rhetoric does nothing to remove Macedon’s right to support whatever colors chosen for their world fact-book entry, and that such language should be removed from this council’s records in the name of regional expression.

“Chosen” should be “they choose”. “Fact-book” should be “factbook”.

Accepting the fact that Macedon has colonized several regions; however, such practice is common throughout the world, and is no longer something of note, regardless of whatever importance nation’s may invest in region names like Pakistan, Finland, or Belarus.


Further Believing that if Macedon is truly worthy of condemnation by the Security Council, a better argument should be presented to this council than what is stated in Resolution #1.


Acknowledging what little impact Macedon holds in the greater scope of world affairs, and that the region condemned by this council is not even the main region of the condemned party.


Admitting that the condemnation may in fact be responsible for the continuation of Macedonia’s colonies, and that the removal of the condemnation may be more effective in reopening the regions that have been lost.

Pfft. That’s a load of bullshit.

Hoping that regions still under Macedon's control will be able to develop communities like the region of France. The repeal of Resolution #1 may have more of an effective in changing the status quo rather than years of being condemned.


Hereby Repeals: “Condemn Macedon”

There should be a period at the end of this clause.

Against. SC #1 is a historical resolution, condemning one of the first ever raider regions, a region that had purposely crashed another region’s forum. The reason that repealing this condemnation and replacing it is not an option is that it is impossible to fully convey why they are condemned without violating SC rules. They took countless regions named after real life countries and have held them for years, and destroyed a regional forum, the ultimate gameplay warcrime.

Overall it's really well written though, and easily the best attempt at this specific repeal that I've seen.
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Postby Cormactopia II » Tue May 31, 2016 11:42 pm

We Are Not the NSA wrote:The reason that repealing this condemnation and replacing it is not an option is that it is impossible to fully convey why they are condemned without violating SC rules. They took countless regions named after real life countries and have held them for years, and destroyed a regional forum, the ultimate gameplay warcrime.

What part of what Macedon did is impossible to convey and still remain in compliance with Security Council rules? If you're referring to forum destruction, as long as you don't refer to the electronic nature or details of the forum, it's legal to condemn a region for forum destruction. Two regions, Unknown (later repealed) and Allied States of EuroIslanders, have been condemned for forum destruction. Regarding taking regions named after real life countries, that could be conveyed with some creative phrasing.

There really is very little you can't mention in the Security Council as long as you're creative enough to put it in RP language. I have no interest in condemning Macedon because I strongly believe they aren't and never were relevant enough to warrant eternal commemoration, but I'm confident I could author a rules compliant condemnation that gets the point across.
Last edited by Cormactopia II on Tue May 31, 2016 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby The old wildlife pen pal » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:52 am

Let's scrap the whole SC too, since it's just a giant continuous commemoration to Macedon's ability to grief regions :roll:

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Postby Sedgistan » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:00 am

Cormactopia II wrote: have no interest in condemning Macedon because I strongly believe they aren't and never were relevant enough to warrant eternal commemoration

Unless you were around at the time, it's hard to really understand Macedon's importance. Much of what they did happened before gameplayers made much use of the official forums, and also before this current forum existed, so any records are scattered.

It was Macedon, alongisde a few groups they worked with such as Mencer, whose actions caused gameplayers to demand a solution to the problems influence had caused with regards to region destruction - and thus led to the creation of the SC. They hawked large numbers of regions named after RW countries that could've been hubs for NSers of their respective nationalities - and many had used to be. To do this, they'd insert sleepers into regions, pretending for months to be your friends, building up the influence they needed to take the delegacy, and immediately password the region - at that point, a game over situation, and a slow death to that region's community. It wasn't just that they were the most prolific region griefers for a number of years - they did it in a really unpleasant way, usually with an aspect of frankly racist gloating involved. Their behaviour was so abhorrent that even Todd McCloud, who not too long before was griefing regions left, right and centre himself, considered them unbearable.

Macedon were significant enough that their Condemnation should stand for two reasons: first, it was their continued region destruction that highlighted key flaws in the game design that were eventually resolved through Liberation proposals. Without Macedon, we wouldn't have the Security Council. Secondly, in any demographic of gamers you'll always have those that are fun to play against - competitive, but in a good natured way, and those that are plain nasty, taking a win-at-all-costs approach, and rubbing your face in it. They took the latter to extremes.

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Postby Benevolent Thomas » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:03 am

I was just reading a thread about Macedon's invasion of Belgium. Its amazing to see what all of the eventual mods thought of them and the practice of region destruction in general.
Ballotonia wrote:Personally, I think there's something seriously wrong with a game if it willfully allows the destruction of longtime player communities in favor of kids whose sole purpose is to enjoy ruining the game for others.

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Postby Cormactopia II » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:08 am

Thank you for that information, Sedge. I've already made a commitment to the author to support this repeal, and intend to keep it, but that did provide a lot of insight regarding Macedon I didn't have. So I appreciate learning about something I knew little about.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:10 am

Well written as this repeal is, I don't think it would stand a cat in Hell's chance of passing. Too many old hands still around who remember the events Sedge outlined.
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Postby Benevolent Thomas » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:32 am

Benevolent Thomas wrote:I was just reading a thread about Macedon's invasion of Belgium. Its amazing to see what all of the eventual mods thought of them and the practice of region destruction in general.

Found it: viewtopic.php?p=37947#p37937
Ballotonia wrote:Personally, I think there's something seriously wrong with a game if it willfully allows the destruction of longtime player communities in favor of kids whose sole purpose is to enjoy ruining the game for others.

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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:15 am

Benevolent Thomas wrote:I was just reading a thread about Macedon's invasion of Belgium. Its amazing to see what all of the eventual mods thought of them and the practice of region destruction in general.

And then there's me :D

Opposed, for the reasons Sedge put forth.
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Postby Adytus » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:18 pm

We Are Not the NSA wrote:<snip>

"Thank you for your insight. I have noted some of your comments in the new draft, and I would be thankful if you could review it for any new typos that may have appeared while my office was drafting the new proposal."

Cormactopia II wrote:Thank you for that information, Sedge. I've already made a commitment to the author to support this repeal, and intend to keep it, but that did provide a lot of insight regarding Macedon I didn't have. So I appreciate learning about something I knew little about.


"Yes, thank you Sedge. I also was not aware of the depth Macedon operated; however, that is now my problem with SC # 1 - it fails to provide any of the information you provided, and I think the council can do a better job condemning those who deserve to be condemned. The more the international community knows about what the region did back in the day, the better, and the harder it will be to remove its condemnation without the need for older players to show up and reeducate everyone on the events that happened. I think it is possible to do a repeal and replacement of SC # 1, and have drafted a new proposal. I would appreciate your input, Sedge. EDIT: Also, I stole a couple of phrases you stated. I hope this is ok, and I will remove them if they are not."

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Well written as this repeal is, I don't think it would stand a cat in Hell's chance of passing. Too many old hands still around who remember the events Sedge outlined.


"Perhaps we can remove the need for older players to carry out the responsibility of the resolution. Thank you for your thoughts, ambassador, and to others contributing in this thread. I would like some insight here as well if anyone has the time."
Last edited by Adytus on Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Stalker » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:55 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Well written as this repeal is, I don't think it would stand a cat in Hell's chance of passing. Too many old hands still around who remember the events Sedge outlined.


It's true, there are no cats in Hell, Cerberus ate them all.

The older the resolution is the harder it is to repeal, and this has been tried many times before. It's a piece of NS history and there is no way doing a repeal and replace 7 years later is gonna hold the same significance or value as the current one does, opposed.
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Postby ADST World » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:57 pm

Also, you should be repealing, not repealing and replacing.
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Postby We Are Not the NSA » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:04 pm

ADST World wrote:Also, you should be repealing, not repealing and replacing.

The repeal:
Argument: The Security Council,

Recognizing Macedon to be the first region ever condemned by the World Assembly; however, the arguments made by the author in SC # 1 lack detail regarding their actions, which makes it hard for current generations of nations to understand Macedon’s importance,

Noting Resolution #1 describes the coloring of world factbook entries as distasteful and grotesque, hardly something worthy of note by this council, and an observation too opinionated to force a condemnation.

Believing that such rhetoric does nothing to remove Macedon’s [or any other region’s] right to support whatever colors they choose for their world factbook entry, and that such language should be removed from this council’s records in the name of regional expression.

Further Believing that Macedon is truly worthy of condemnation by the Security Council for their recorded actions, and that a better argument will be presented to this council swiftly after SC # 1 is repealed.

Acknowledging that the region of Macedon is no longer the main region for the condemned party, and that the council wishes to reapply the condemnation on the region of Macedonia.

Hoping that regions still under Macedon control will be able to develop communities like the region of France. The repeal of SC # 1 only seeks to better confirm this council’s commitment to those communities by better outlining the condemnable behavior of Macedon.

Hereby Repeals: “Condemn Macedon."

The replace:
Description: The Security Council,

Acknowledging the impact Macedonia [and the region of Macedon] has held in the greater scope of world affairs, their monstrous actions a major contribution to the creation of this council, and its mission of spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

Noting that Macedonia was one of the first ever invader entities, adopting a win-at-all-costs approach, and conducting themselves with such extremity that even noted invaders of the time period, such as Todd McCloud, condemned them for their actions.

Recognizing the terrible game over situations that Macedonian agents would impose on helpless regions; they would take power for themselves by pretending to befriend natives of a region, place a password on the region, and then brutally force the native community from their home, often with racist gloating involved.

Applaud that the region found the practice of forum crashing acceptable in order to achieve a means; the Macedonians destroyed a regions hub of communication and commerce, and such practice should be universally condemned.

Encouraging good-natured competitiveness amongst rivals, and conflicting forces; the behavior conducted by the condemnable region is highly discouraged by this council, and the international community; Macedonia will serve as an example to this commitment.

Disgusted by the number of regions Macedonia claims as colonies, and has for more than a decade; moreover, these regions hold a particular interest to the international community, their names having great significance to many nations [Belarus, Czech Republic, Kurdistan, etc.], and should be freed at the first opportunity.

Understanding that when Macedonia was an active invader organization, their destruction of regional communities was described as prolific, and that this horrific activity continued for years without balance, destroying numerous homes in a revolting fashion.

Hereby Condemns: Macedonia.

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Postby ADST World » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:06 pm

The "how to write proposals" states that you must repeal, then create a new proposal to replace.
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Postby We Are Not the NSA » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:08 pm

ADST World wrote:The "how to write proposals" states that you must repeal, then create a new proposal to replace.

Yes, that is literally what a repeal and replace is. It is two different proposals submitted at the same time.
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Postby ADST World » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:10 pm

Okay then. I haven't seen one of these before, so I was going with the known rule set.
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Postby Todd McCloud » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:34 pm

I get notifications every time a repeat of this resolution comes forward, which usually is proposed once every 1-2 months. Most of the time it doesn't reach the floor due to failing quorum or some kind of rule violation. Though, the last time it did reach the floor, the repeal was voted down 10,023 to 1,687. Too many people remember them and what they did. At the time, not even the dastardly of raiders wanted to associate with them. There's many examples on their behavior that most on this site would find abhorrent and definitely not something to emulate.

That being said, I've read this over and it doesn't use the typical arguments proposals seem to make, namely:
1. The region is now deserted therefore they shouldn't have the condemnation.
2. They've moved to the region Macedonia, and therefore we should repeal this one and condemn Macedonia

Which is good. I would say that the SC is much better at authoring these resolutions nowadays than in the past (especially when looking at some of the early resolutions I wrote), but even with the poor wording, everyone understood just how deplorable the behavior of that organization was. I think that says quite a bit, in all honesty. Condemn Macedon wasn't even the first resolution to vote; that distinction goes to Condemn Gatesville, written by Kenny, and was defeated a few days prior to this one coming to vote. Meaning that this region beat out what was arguably the most polarizing UCR region the game has ever seen. That's huge, in my opinion.

As Sedge indicated, Macedon was responsible for bringing about Liberations, especially with Belgium and France. Some other notable fights included Greece and some other Greek-themed regions among others. The SC was, from what I remember, kind of a Sandbox that was like a saloon in the old west. Always a fight, especially when it came between GAers and Gameplay, two groups that had to learn to play nice in the early going. Those old resolutions for the most part have stood the test of time because at that time one side would work to counter a resolution passed by another side. Well-written bills like Commend Jey were defeated for the most part due to this fighting early on.

At any rate, if I look at Option 2 listed above, why not pass the Condemn Macedon draft to Condemn Macedonia instead?
Last edited by Todd McCloud on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Westercourt » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:52 pm

We Are Not the NSA wrote:Applaud that the region found the practice of forum crashing acceptable in order to achieve a means; the Macedonians destroyed a regions hub of communication and commerce, and such practice should be universally condemned.
Applaud?
Last edited by Westercourt on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Adytus » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:54 pm

Westercourt wrote:
We Are Not the NSA wrote:Applaud that the region found the practice of forum crashing acceptable in order to achieve a means; the Macedonians destroyed a regions hub of communication and commerce, and such practice should be universally condemned.
Applaud?


"Well that is embarrassing. Let me change that quickly. It was suppose to read 'Appalled.'"
Last edited by Adytus on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby We Are Not the NSA » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:02 pm

Adytus wrote:
Westercourt wrote:Applaud?


"Well that is embarrassing. Let me change that quickly. It was suppose to read 'Appalled.'"

why? Why? Why?! WHY?!?

Edit:
We Are Not the NSA wrote:@%$#@%!!!!1!! WHY DOES EVERYONE SPELL APPALLED WRONG?! PS author, don't take that personally, I've just come to know "appalled" as the most commonly misspelled word in the SC. The observation even got into a repeal of mine.
Last edited by We Are Not the NSA on Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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