[DEFEATED] Condemn The New Inquisition

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:40 pm

Condemn The New Inquisition
A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: The New Inquisition| Proposed by: Ynys Prydain

Description: The Security Council:

Denouncing The New Inquisition for pursuing imperialism through acts of duplicitous subversion, unprovoked aggression, and wanton destruction against peaceful, sovereign regional communities throughout the world, including as a constituent region of the United Imperial Armed Forces (UIAF);

Reproaching The New Inquisition for establishing a formal alliance with The Black Riders and maintaining a close military partnership with The Black Hawks, both previously condemned by this Security Council for their acts of regional destruction, acts at times supported by The New Inquisition;

Rebuking The New Inquisition for the following deplorable offenses against interregional peace and goodwill:

Support for the Crimson Order, a rogue regime led by Lewis and Clark, which perpetrated a more than two month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of The North Pacific;
Support for and formal alliance with the Empire, a rogue regime led by Lady Phedre, which perpetrated a more than four month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of The East Pacific;
Declaration of war against The North Pacific to support allies the Empire and Gatesville, which had also declared war against The North Pacific;
Absurd claims of sovereignty over Valhalla, used to rationalize war against the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA) and its member regions, including Lazarus and The Rejected Realms;
Occupation of Belgium to use as a staging ground for invasion of The Rejected Realms, an invasion that included the use of involuntary conscripts forced to participate without their knowledge or consent;
Subversion by high profile officials of The New Inquisition of the community and government of Lazarus for the purpose of asserting and maintaining imperialist hegemony over the region, ultimately resulting in the expulsion of these subversives from Lazarus;
Support for the Imperium -- a rogue regime led by The Dourian Embassy, which perpetrated a one month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of Osiris -- providing significant military support and strategic data to deliberately prolong the coup;
Termination of an alliance with The South Pacific due to ratification of a treaty of mutual defense between The South Pacific and The Rejected Realms, which has had a chilling effect on the sovereign right of other prominent allies of The New Inquisition to formalize alliances with Lazarus and The Rejected Realms;
Assertion of illegitimate claims to sovereignty over Concosia to rationalize war against the United Defenders League (UDL), following attempts by the UDL to liberate Concosia from forced colonization by The New Inquisition;
Use of wars against the FRA and the UDL to rationalize invasion and occupation of countless regions throughout the world, often with little or no actual connection to the FRA or the UDL, including but by no means limited to the following regions that have previously endured UIAF occupation: The True Rebirth, Middle Earth, New Zealand, Australia, Slavia, Scotland, Slavya, Canada, and Eastern Europe;

Declaring that The New Inquisition is among the most belligerent and dangerous regions in the world, and desiring to place an enduring censure upon the actions of its bellicose, imperialist regime:

Hereby Condemns The New Inquisition.

by **Peyotef** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:05 pm

Any citation about Osiris? I'm confused about this one

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:11 pm

Peyotef wrote:Any citation about Osiris? I'm confused about this one

You'll want to check out this section of "The NPO's Retort" for evidence in regard to Osiris. Please note that Durkadurkiranistan II (omgitsjackwtf), who was administering The Dourian Embassy at the time, admitted in the log posted there that he had been provided regional influence equations that assisted in the coup. Without those equations and without the UIAF pilers that they purported were there to covertly support the legitimate government of Osiris, the coup may have ended weeks earlier.

by **Killer Kitty** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:27 pm

Ynys Prydain wrote:[*]Subversion by high profile officials of The New Inquisition of the community and government of Lazarus for the purpose of asserting and maintaining imperialist hegemony over the region, ultimately resulting in the expulsion of these subversives from Lazarus;

Bollocks.

Those members were elected officials or legal citizens and illegal banned with no trial during the Purge in Lazarus. The banning of those several joint TNI/Laz citizens (and some Laz only citizens) eliminated all active opposition (and indeed most of the active Lazarus government) preparing the region for the coup that lead to the creation of the People's Republic of Lazarus dictatorship.

If you want to accuse anyone of manipulating Lazarus during that time period, then look not farther than Feux and the NPO. Not to mention FRA suddenly benefited from this coup with an out-of-the-blue membership application from the newly formed Lazarus dictatorship, one came after years of refusing to cooperate with Lazarus under the Phoenix government. Apparently, in the eyes of the FRA, legally elected neutral democracy = bad, but outside supported coup forming a defender dictatorship = good.

I agree that TNI probably deserves a Condemn, Cormac, but don't lie and put a Defender spin on an NPO organized coup d'etat that lead to the establishment of a Defender Dictatorship in a previously neutral region that had no standing military.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:34 pm

Killer Kitty wrote:Bollocks.

Those members were elected officials or legal citizens and illegal banned with no trial during the Purge in Lazarus. The banning of those several joint TNI/Laz citizens (and some Laz only citizens) eliminated all active opposition (and indeed most of the active Lazarus government) preparing the region for the coup that lead to the creation of the People's Republic of Lazarus dictatorship.

You can argue that those citizens were unjustly banned -- though I am no longer arguing that, having witnessed imperialist behavior in Osiris -- but you can't argue that they were illegally banned. The bans imposed went through the proper channels established by the laws of Lazarus.

Your assertion that "most of the Lazarus government" was banned is simply false. Citations, please.

Killer Kitty wrote:If you want to accuse anyone of manipulating Lazarus during that time period, then look not farther than Feux and the NPO. Not to mention FRA suddenly benefited from this coup with an out-of-the-blue membership application from the newly formed Lazarus dictatorship, one came after years of refusing to cooperate with Lazarus under the Phoenix government. Apparently, in the eyes of the FRA, legally elected neutral democracy = bad, but outside coup forming a defender dictatorship = good.

I agree that TNI probably deserves a Condemn, Cormac, but don't lie and put a Defender spin on an NPO organized coup d'etat that lead to the establishment of a Defender Dictatorship in a previously neutral region that had no standing military.

This nonsense about a "coup d'etat" is just that: nonsense. No matter what you might think of the banning of joint TNI-Lazarus citizens who were, according to actual Lazarenes, subverting Lazarene sovereignty, everything that happened -- the bannings, establishment of the People's Republic of Lazarus, etc. -- was completely legal under the laws of Lazarus. That is not a coup d'etat.

Nor has the PRL been an actual dictatorship. In law, great power is vested in the Chairman; in practice, there have been democratic elections not only for Chairman but for the People's Congress, the legislature of the region that is empowered to make changes to its system of governance. Do I think the government of Lazarus is perfect? No. Would I like to see greater democracy there, as a foreign observer? Absolutely. But these words you're throwing around, words like coup d'etat and dictatorship, are not accurate. Your claim that Lazarus had no standing military prior to the PRL is also just plain false. Either you don't know what you're talking about or you are being deliberately misleading. Either way, you're trying to distract from the broader point of the proposal by getting the debate bogged down in arguments about the internal governance of Lazarus, which has nothing at all to do with this, and I'm not interested.

by **Killer Kitty** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:59 pm

Ynys Prydain wrote:Your claim that Lazarus had no standing military prior to the PRL is also just plain false. Either you don't know what you're talking about or you are being deliberately misleading.

As a former Lazarus General and former head of the Undead Horde and it's successor, the Emerald Legion, I can tell you for a dead fact Lazarus had no standing military when Feux coup'd.

The military existed in name only with no active members on its roster, hell, I'm not even sure it had any members listed on it's roles that weren't CTE (the list wasn't well maintained). Even DYP, who was it's head, was inactive in Lazarus. I personally volunteered to Feux to replace DYP, since DYP had stated publicly he was only agreeing to the appointment to fill a slot. Feux never responded to me after multiple direct inquires, side stepping the issue more than once, and then preformed his coup shortly thereafter.

In retrospect, it makes sense. He didn't want an active military that was loyal to the old government to be around for fear it would complicate his plot.

Ynys Prydain wrote:You can argue that those citizens were unjustly banned -- though I am no longer arguing that, having witnessed imperialist behavior in Osiris -- but you can't argue that they were illegally banned. The bans imposed went through the proper channels established by the laws of Lazarus.

I would be interested to know what law you're referring to, since I can find neither the supposed law nor Feux's citing of said law.

Most of Lazarus' constitutions were made prior to the region getting a ban button, I should note. All of those don't even include the word "ban" anywhere in their language.

Either way, your claim that TNI was trying to subvert Lazarus and were justly banned are false and should not be included in this Condemn.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:14 pm

Killer Kitty wrote:<More stuff about internal governance of Lazarus that isn't relevant to this proposal.>

I'm not addressing anything else about the internal governance of Lazarus, as it isn't relevant to the proposal. The New Inquisition is being condemned for their actions in Lazarus.

Killer Kitty wrote:Either way, your claim that TNI was trying to subvert Lazarus and were justly banned are false and should not be included in this Condemn.

I disagree. You can argue that their bannings were unjust if you want, but what they were doing in Lazarus is well documented in "The NPO's Retort," which is included in the citations for the proposal. This is about what they were doing, not what was done to them, rightly or wrongly, by former Delegate Feux.

by **KaelThas Quilor** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:15 pm

The New Inquisition was not a supporter of Douria's coup, and the sheer double-think of claiming that, Cormac, is insane. Without TNI and the LKE, you would never have claimed the Pharaoh position you rightfully won in election.

TNI's claim to sovereignty over Concosia came with the approval of what little active native population was there. TNI had controlled the founder. If they don't have sovereignty over the region, then no community has sovereignty over their region.

•Termination of an alliance with The South Pacific due to ratification of a treaty of mutual defense between The South Pacific and The Rejected Realms, which has had a chilling effect on the sovereign right of other prominent allies of The New Inquisition to formalize alliances with Lazarus and The Rejected Realms;

Terminating an alliance is not an attack on TSP's sovreingty. TSP had every right to make an alliance with TRR - it also had every right to suffer reasonable ramifications for that right. Making an alliance with two mutually hostile regions is on the face of it absurd. TSP was warned TNI wouldn't like it - and TSP decided they valued TRR's friendship more. This is fine. TNI made no hostile actions against TSP's government, and no sovereignty was violated. Freedom to do as you please (which TSP had) is not freedom from other people not being fond of what you do.

Moreover, any ally of TNI that is going to make an alliance with regions TNI is at war with has already decided they aren't really friends with TNI. It's the basic logic of international relations, Cormac.

•Occupation of Belgium to use as a staging ground for invasion of The Rejected Realms, an invasion that included the use of involuntary conscripts forced to participate without their knowledge or consent;

The Occupation was made entirely with external military units. No one was conscripted.

•Absurd claims of sovereignty over Valhalla, used to rationalize war against the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA) and its member regions, including Lazarus and The Rejected Realms;

Valhalla had no community, no activity, no anything at the time. If we're going to condemn regions for claiming sovereignty over every empty patch of dirt in this game, we're going to be here a long time.

•Support for the Crimson Order, a rogue regime led by Lewis and Clark, which perpetrated a more than two month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of The North Pacific;
•Support for and formal alliance with the Empire, a rogue regime led by Lady Phedre, which perpetrated a more than four month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of The East Pacific;
•Declaration of war against The North Pacific to support allies the Empire and Gatesville, which had also declared war against The North Pacific;

All offenses years old and no longer in effect. Also, is it somehow wrong to support an ally when they declare war on someone? Are you saying alliances should be empty letters of no meaning?

•Subversion by high profile officials of The New Inquisition of the community and government of Lazarus for the purpose of asserting and maintaining imperialist hegemony over the region, ultimately resulting in the expulsion of these subversives from Lazarus;

Proof or it didn't happen.

Oh, wait, it didn't happen.

You tried to condemn the LKE, and you couldn't even get that waste of text off the ground, Cormac. Now you're going to try the old familiar 'Condemn TNI' route, a project that has failed repeatedly, even when it got to a vote once?

by **Solorni** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:18 pm

I'm pretty sure there are posts made by Cormac stating unequivocally that TNI was aiding Osiris during that mission.

by **KaelThas Quilor** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:22 pm

The Cormac of one side and the Cormac of another are effectively two different people. As far as he cares, it would seem, his opinions in the past are irrelevant. His credibility is apparently perfect.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:37 pm

KaelThas Quilor wrote:The New Inquisition was not a supporter of Douria's coup, and the sheer double-think of claiming that, Cormac, is insane. Without TNI and the LKE, you would never have claimed the Pharaoh position you rightfully won in election.

The New Inquisition was, in fact, materially supporting Douria's coup. I believed at the time that they were doing it to benefit Osiris and that they were covertly supporting the Kemetic Republic, but I also did not know until publication of "The NPO's Retort" that Durk had given them the idea and that they had given the influence equations to Durk.

It's plainly obvious, and has been since "The NPO's Retort," that The New Inquisition (as well as The Land of Kings and Emperors) were deliberately prolonging the coup to extract as much for their own interests from the Kemetic Republic of Osiris as they could. In the end, they extracted quite a lot for their own interests and it was only after that -- only after I agreed to basically shatter the KRO's relations with defenders -- that the coup came to an end.

Re-read "The NPO's Retort." Durk admits they gave him the influence equations. Durk admits that it was his idea for UIAF to offer to covertly support Osiris and then negotiate a peace agreement when he was done. Everything that happened was on Douria's, Durk's, Gatesville's, and UIAF's terms. I was duped, and they were never actually supporting Osiris. They were in it for themselves to bring Osiris under their imperialist sphere of influence, and I complied. Biggest mistake of my NationStates career.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:TNI's claim to sovereignty over Concosia came with the approval of what little active native population was there. TNI had controlled the founder. If they don't have sovereignty over the region, then no community has sovereignty over their region.

TNI conquered and re-founded Concosia. Their possession of the Founder account after that does not grant them legitimate sovereignty over the region. Had they been in possession of its original Founder and not re-founded by force, your point would stand, but the only people who believe that a forced re-founding grants legitimate sovereignty over a region are you and your lot.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:
•Termination of an alliance with The South Pacific due to ratification of a treaty of mutual defense between The South Pacific and The Rejected Realms, which has had a chilling effect on the sovereign right of other prominent allies of The New Inquisition to formalize alliances with Lazarus and The Rejected Realms;

Terminating an alliance is not an attack on TSP's sovreingty. TSP had every right to make an alliance with TRR - it also had every right to suffer reasonable ramifications for that right. Making an alliance with two mutually hostile regions is on the face of it absurd. TSP was warned TNI wouldn't like it - and TSP decided they valued TRR's friendship more. This is fine. TNI made no hostile actions against TSP's government, and no sovereignty was violated. Freedom to do as you please (which TSP had) is not freedom from other people not being fond of what you do.

Moreover, any ally of TNI that is going to make an alliance with regions TNI is at war with has already decided they aren't really friends with TNI. It's the basic logic of international relations, Cormac.

The problem here, Cerian, is that no one knew before making their treaties with TNI that making treaties of mutual defense with TRR or Lazarus would be a problem. TNI tolerated without opposition Balders participation in the Pan-Sinker Security Pact (PSSP), which at the time included FRA member region TRR (Lazarus was not yet an FRA member). None of TNI's GCR allies, including TSP, had any idea until TNI abruptly terminated relations with TSP that they were going to be expected not to make treaties of mutual defense with fellow GCRs and expected to essentially be a party to TNI's war.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:
•Occupation of Belgium to use as a staging ground for invasion of The Rejected Realms, an invasion that included the use of involuntary conscripts forced to participate without their knowledge or consent;

The Occupation was made entirely with external military units. No one was conscripted.

Tell it to Europeia, which claimed to have no prior knowledge of the TRR invasion and which claimed its ejected units were unwilling participants. Pretty sure they weren't the only ones.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:
•Absurd claims of sovereignty over Valhalla, used to rationalize war against the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA) and its member regions, including Lazarus and The Rejected Realms;

Valhalla had no community, no activity, no anything at the time. If we're going to condemn regions for claiming sovereignty over every empty patch of dirt in this game, we're going to be here a long time.

That is perhaps the poorest argument I've ever heard and it doesn't merit counter-argument. I'll let the nations and regions of the world decide whether TNI is entitled to sovereignty over a "patch of dirt" that in no sense belonged to them.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:
•Support for the Crimson Order, a rogue regime led by Lewis and Clark, which perpetrated a more than two month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of The North Pacific;
•Support for and formal alliance with the Empire, a rogue regime led by Lady Phedre, which perpetrated a more than four month long coup d'etat against the constitutional government of The East Pacific;
•Declaration of war against The North Pacific to support allies the Empire and Gatesville, which had also declared war against The North Pacific;

All offenses years old and no longer in effect. Also, is it somehow wrong to support an ally when they declare war on someone? Are you saying alliances should be empty letters of no meaning?

So because they did these things years ago they don't warrant condemnation? Have they ever apologized to The North Pacific or The East Pacific? Have they expressed remorse of any kind? That it happened years ago is irrelevant. It's the beginning of an ongoing pattern of behavior on TNI's part toward GCRs. TNI has no respect for GCR communities and will only protect those communities if they are under their imperialist sphere of influence or there's something in it for them. If you are a GCR that is not under TNI's influence, or willing to be brought under it, expect them to support a coup d'etat against you -- it's what they've always done.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:
•Subversion by high profile officials of The New Inquisition of the community and government of Lazarus for the purpose of asserting and maintaining imperialist hegemony over the region, ultimately resulting in the expulsion of these subversives from Lazarus;

Proof or it didn't happen.

Oh, wait, it didn't happen.

You tried to condemn the LKE, and you couldn't even get that waste of text off the ground, Cormac. Now you're going to try the old familiar 'Condemn TNI' route, a project that has failed repeatedly, even when it got to a vote once?

Those condemnation attempts were of far lesser quality and didn't include much of this material, particularly TNI's extensive history of supporting coups d'etat against Feeders and Sinkers. I'm confident that this proposal will pass and, after it, condemnation of TNI's closest ally, The LKE.

Solorni wrote:I'm pretty sure there are posts made by Cormac stating unequivocally that TNI was aiding Osiris during that mission.

KaelThas Quilor wrote:The Cormac of one side and the Cormac of another are effectively two different people. As far as he cares, it would seem, his opinions in the past are irrelevant. His credibility is apparently perfect.

I was duped and I'm willing to admit it. I had no idea prior to publication of "The NPO's Retort" that Durk had suggested the pretense of covert support for Osiris or that UIAF had provided him with the influence equations, and by that time it was far too late -- I had delivered everything UIAF wanted from Osiris and placed Osiris firmly under their hegemony.

by **Dzurasiz** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:19 pm

Duped but happily continued your friendship with them long after the npo thing was revealed.

by **Raging Zen Master** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:25 pm

Oh Cormac, I think the worst of all of this is that you actually are beginning to believe the drivel you churn out.

I particularly enjoy how you attempt to drag Euro into this. It is nice to see that such a glorious region still maintains a place in your imagination.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:35 pm

Dzurasiz wrote:Duped but happily continued your friendship with them long after the npo thing was revealed.

I love people who attack others from anonymous puppets. Said no one ever.

Have the intestinal fortitude to post this with a recognizable nation and I'll respond to it.

Raging Zen Master wrote:Oh Cormac, I think the worst of all of this is that you actually are beginning to believe the drivel you churn out.

I particularly enjoy how you attempt to drag Euro into this. It is nice to see that such a glorious region still maintains a place in your imagination.

Europeia was the example that sprang to mind, as its government insisted it had no prior knowledge of the TRR invasion, that its units were unwilling participants, and the units withdrew from TRR. I think that was decent of them and I wasn't trying to disparage them. As noted, there were other regions that were unwilling participants too -- I think Grand Central was another.

by **Onderkelkia** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:14 pm

I am on a leave of absence but, my attention having been drawn to this topic, I feel obliged to correct the sheer inaccuracies (and only some of them).

Ynys Prydain wrote:The New Inquisition was, in fact, materially supporting Douria's coup. I believed at the time that they were doing it to benefit Osiris and that they were covertly supporting the Kemetic Republic, but I also did not know until publication of "The NPO's Retort" that Durk had given them the idea and that they had given the influence equations to Durk.

You were not duped. Now you are hostile to TNI and the UIAF, you may wish you had been duped, to justify your actions, but you cannot reverse history.

The idea to deploy units supporting Gatesville, in order to gain leverage which would then be used to restore control to the legitimate government of Osiris, was conceived by the LKE very shortly after the conflict began. It was this strategy which the UIAF as a whole subsequently took up.

The genesis of this approach had nothing to do with Durk (I for one never even spoke to him about the matter).

In order to gain the trust of Gatesville and Durk, so the UIAF could do what we did, those in direct communication with him may welll have presented the impression that they were acting in concert - that was the point of the plan, to deceive them - but the planning was conducted in UIAF command staff meetings in which Durk and Gatesville had zero involvement or input.

That the impression that UIAF was on their side was apparently coveyed simply shows that the UIAF's plan worked.

Ynys Prydain wrote:None of TNI's GCR allies, including TSP, had any idea until TNI abruptly terminated relations with TSP that they were going to be expected not to make treaties of mutual defense with fellow GCRs

On the contrary, at a conference in January 2014, I made it perfectly clear to TSP what TNI's position would be in such an eventuality.

Ynys Prydain wrote:Tell it to Europeia, which claimed to have no prior knowledge of the TRR invasion and which claimed its ejected units were unwilling participants. Pretty sure they weren't the only ones.

Not a single one of these regions submitted any complaint to TNI as a region or to me as TNIAF Commander and the person who conducted the operation.

TNI could have been reasonably expected to take anti-FRA action as an extension of any of its own standard offensive military operations given the ongoing war, which all partners were aware of. If this was so objectionable, these regions would presumably have raised a grievance about it at the time.

These regions understood that context, so they didn't. You are in no position to complain on their behalf three years later.

Ynys Prydain wrote:I disagree. You can argue that their bannings were unjust if you want, but what they were doing in Lazarus is well documented in "The NPO's Retort," which is included in the citations for the proposal.

What evidence precisely in "The NPO's Retort" is included against Griffin, the longest-serving Delegate of Lazarus in recent history, who was throughout firmly and staunchly committed to its neutrality?

She was and is a truer Lazarene than any of her oppressors.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:38 pm

Onderkelkia wrote:You were not duped. Now you are hostile to TNI and the UIAF, you may wish you had been duped, to justify your actions, but you cannot reverse history.

The idea to deploy units supporting Gatesville, in order to gain leverage which would then be used to restore control to the legitimate government of Osiris, was conceived by the LKE very shortly after the conflict began. It was this strategy which the UIAF as a whole subsequently took up.

The genesis of this approach had nothing to do with Durk (I for one never even spoke to him about the matter).

In order to gain the trust of Gatesville and Durk, so the UIAF could do what we did, those in direct communication with him may welll have presented the impression that they were acting in concert - that was the point of the plan, to deceive them - but the planning was conducted in UIAF command staff meetings in which Durk and Gatesville had zero involvement or input.

That the impression that UIAF was on their side was apparently coveyed simply shows that the UIAF's plan worked.

This contradicts what both Cassius (Archsium, Consular) and Durk (omgitsjackwtf) said, revealed in the logs contained in "The NPO's Retort." Both said that Durk had suggested the pretense of supporting Osiris until he was finished with his coup, at which time a negotiated end to the coup would be reached and everyone -- except, apparently, Osiris -- would be happy. Are you essentially saying that Cassius and Durk were lying?

Regardless, and this is the most telling part, to keep up the supposed ruse that you were supporting them, while actually supporting us, did not require giving Durk the influence equations. Indeed, there was no reason for Durk to even know you had the influence equations. That you gave him the influence equations demonstrated a desire to prolong the coup d'etat for your own ends, as without those equations he very well could have made mistakes that would have made a military liberation more feasible, more quickly.

I certainly didn't know he had been given the influence equations so, yes, I was duped.

Onderkelkia wrote:On the contrary, at a conference in January 2014, I made it perfectly clear to TSP what TNI's position would be in such an eventuality.

That may be the case, I'm not privy to private correspondence between TNI and TSP. However, what I can say with certainty is that TNI never made it known to Osiris that a treaty of mutual defense with TRR (or Lazarus) would be interpreted as action against our alliance with TNI and grounds for termination of that alliance. Indeed, in light of TNI's earlier tolerance of Balder's participation in the PSSP, Osiris had every reason to believe it could still enter into alliances of mutual defense with Lazarus and TRR if it wanted to do so in the future. That assumption was smashed, out of the blue and with zero consultation, when TNI terminated its treaty with TSP and Minister-President MagentaFairy confirmed to me that the new policy was not exclusive to TSP but applied to all of TNI's allies.

Onderkelkia wrote:Not a single one of these regions submitted any complaint to TNI as a region or to me as TNIAF Commander and the person who conducted the operation.

TNI could have been reasonably expected to take anti-FRA action as an extension of any of its own standard offensive military operations given the ongoing war, which all partners were aware of. If this was so objectionable, these regions would presumably have raised a grievance about it at the time.

These regions understood that context, so they didn't. You are in no position to complain on their behalf three years later.

That's all well and good, but I didn't say they had submitted a complaint. I said that they were involuntary conscripts and, complaints or not, several of them did make the claim that they were involuntary participants.

I'm not complaining on anyone's behalf, I'm condemning TNI for launching an invasion with involuntary conscripts. Whether those conscripted forces have any problem with it is irrelevant; they were still involuntarily conscripted.

by **Killer Kitty** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:49 pm

Onderkelkia wrote:What evidence precisely in "The NPO's Retort" is included against Griffin, the longest-serving Delegate of Lazarus in recent history, who was throughout firmly and staunchly committed to its neutrality?

None, but some good evidence to suggest the NPO was plotting her removal from the start.

A mean old man wrote:"Queen Viktoria," NES, and other UIAF traitors ~~will be~~ have been banjected from Lazarus.

Delegate Feux of Lazarus has announced his resignation.

The traitorous Feux was and is an NPO Senator. The fact that AMOM made this statement before the bannings occurred, while providing zero evidence of wrong doing on TNI's part in Lazarus, is not at all a shock to me. He knew Feux was going to banject the "traitors" because it was an NPO plot from the start.

The only purpose this announcement served was to try to convince others that the TNI, who conveniently got banned, were the real traitors, and not the NPO, who then dissolved the government and destroyed Lazarus culture and history from top to bottom.

Apparently Cormac bought into the propaganda hook, link, and sinker.

by **Onderkelkia** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:58 pm

Cormac, I notice you have made no attempt to substantiate the attack on Griffin implied in this resolution.

I can only second the comments of Griffin's fellow former Delegate, Killer Kitty, on the matter.

Ynys Prydain wrote:This contradicts what both Cassius (Archsium, Consular)

Archisum/Consular/Cassius Cerebella was not a UIAF officer at that point in time. Indeed, he was not even in a UIAF region at that point in time: Albion did not join the UIAF until after the Osiris operation. It had no part in the planning of the mission and Cassius had no involvement whatsoever.

Neither NES nor I had ever spoken to Cassius at the time the NPO's Retort was released - never mind the time when the Osiris operation was ongoing.

He was not in a UIAF region. He'd never spoke to NES or me. How in hell can his remarks be presented as a reflection of the UIAF's private thoughts?

Ynys Prydain wrote:and Durk (omgitsjackwtf) said, revealed in the logs contained in "The NPO's Retort

Of course Durk thought that UIAF was on his side - that was the point. Anything anyone said to him will have been done to convince him of that.

I can tell you that the LKE had conceived the UIAF's later plan of action for Osiris on pretty much day one - you may recall our initial deployment.

Ynys Prydain wrote:That may be the case, I'm not privy to private correspondence between TNI and TSP. However, what I can say with certainty is that TNI never made it known to Osiris that a treaty of mutual defense with TRR (or Lazarus) would be interpreted as action against our alliance with TNI and grounds for termination of that alliance. Indeed, in light of TNI's earlier tolerance of Balder's participation in the PSSP, Osiris had every reason to believe it could still enter into alliances of mutual defense with Lazarus and TRR if it wanted to do so in the future. That assumption was smashed, out of the blue and with zero consultation, when TNI terminated its treaty with TSP and Minister-President MagentaFairy confirmed to me that the new policy was not exclusive to TSP but applied to all of TNI's allies.

This resolution is making claims specifically about TSP, so what TNI told TSP is in fact relevant.

Moreover, TNI had been making unequivocal, frank statements about allying with FRA regions going back to 2007. Anyone familiar with us knows that.

When Europeia sought to ally with TRR in September 2011, it was made crystal clear to them that it would mean the termination of the alliance.

Tolerating the Pan-Sinker Security Pact was the exception, not the rule, and it was a mistake. The PSSP was no basis on which policy should be made.

Ynys Prydain wrote:involuntary conscripts.

Regions who understood the military situation to the extent that they made no complaint or objection about being 'involuntarily conscripted'.

It's up to TNI's allies and military partners as to how much leeway they should give TNI to draw on their support. It's not a matter for the Security Council.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:09 pm

I will note that you have not addressed the sharing of influence equations with Durk, so until you do you can expect me to ignore your semantic argument regarding TNI's (and LKE's) deliberate complicity in prolonging the coup of Osiris.

I've already previously stated that I'm not going to get bogged down in a debate about Lazarus' internal governance, as that is not the point of the proposal and isn't relevant to it, so you shouldn't be surprised that I'm ignoring your attempt to drag me back into that.

Onderkelkia wrote:Tolerating the Pan-Sinker Security Pact was the exception, not the rule, and it was a mistake. The PSSP was no basis on which policy should be made.

Nonetheless, this was the most recent policy prior to termination of the TSP treaty and was thus a reasonable basis for TNI's treaty allies to assume that alliance with TRR or Lazarus was something TNI could and would tolerate. You didn't bother to tell allies differently when you were negotiating treaties with them, only after the treaties were in place. Again, duplicitous subversion, as the opening clause of the proposal accuses. There is every possibility that had certain allies known up front that alliances with Lazarus or TRR would always and forever be grounds for TNI to terminate the alliance, they would not have ratified treaties with TNI.

You can say that PSSP was an exception rather than the rule, and a mistake, but you didn't bother to tell anyone that until you abruptly terminated the treaty with TSP. That's the problem.

Onderkelkia wrote:
Ynys Prydain wrote:involuntary conscripts.

Regions who understood the military situation to the extent that they made no complaint or objection about being 'involuntarily conscripted'.

It's up to TNI's allies and military partners as to how much leeway they should give TNI to draw on their support. It's not a matter for the Security Council.

I find it shocking, personally, that while insisting to TRR that they were unwilling participants, they weren't making any complaint to TNI. It certainly does call into question how unwilling their participation really was, versus how unwilling they wanted it to look in order to protect their image and their chances of securing alliances with other Feeders and Sinkers.

Regardless, their claim is that they were involuntary participants so until they recant that claim, thus admitting that they were willing participants in the invasion of a Sinker, the clause is accurate.

by **Onderkelkia** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:21 pm

Ynys Prydain wrote:I will note that you have not addressed the sharing of influence equations with Durk, so until you do

I am not aware of any sharing of any equations.

Any sharing of any UIAF or TNIAF military resources in this context would have required my consent.

Most likely, if equations were shared, they were possibly false and in any case they would have been tactic to gain his trust - leading to Osiris's liberation.

Ynys Prydain wrote:you can expect me to ignore your semantic argument regarding TNI's (and LKE's) deliberate complicity in prolonging the coup of Osiris.

It's not semantics at all - it basically reveals your entire claim to have been an incorrect assumption.

Ynys Prydain wrote:]I've already previously stated that I'm not going to get bogged down in a debate about Lazarus' internal governance, as that is not the point of the proposal and isn't relevant to it, so you shouldn't be surprised that I'm ignoring your attempt to drag me back into that.

You brought Lazarus up in the resolution.

If you are going to attack Griffin as subversive, you should damn well justify it.

Ynys Prydain wrote:Nonetheless, this was the most recent policy prior to termination of the TSP treaty

It was an exception to the policy; it wasn't a change to the policy.

It was a peculiar set of circumstances involving a multilateral pan-sinker defence treaty. It is not the same as standard alliance/mutual defence pact.

Ynys Prydain wrote: You didn't bother to tell allies differently when you were negotiating treaties with them, only after the treaties were in place. Again, duplicitous subversion, as the opening clause of the proposal accuses.

TNI has been making it very clear to anyone who will listen for 8 years that we regard alliances with FRA regions as contemptible.

Our position on regions with ties to the FRA has been made clear time after time, statement after statement - including during the PSSP's duration.

It is frankly the height of the blatantly obvious that allying with two regions at war with each other is normally unacceptable.

Ynys Prydain wrote:I find it shocking, personally, that while insisting to TRR that they were unwilling participants, they weren't making any complaint to TNI.

Accepting that participation in conventional offensive TNI-led military operations might mean fighting FRA regions and TNI will normally utilise opportunites to attack the FRA is perfectly compatible with not wanting to take part in an occupation of The Rejected Realms.

In any case, whatever you wrongly think to be shocking about the position of these regions, that's not an argument against the actions of TNI.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:37 pm

Onderkelkia wrote:I am not aware of any sharing of any equations.

Any sharing of any UIAF or TNIAF military resources in this context would have required my consent.

Most likely, if equations were shared, they were possibly false and in any case they would have been tactic to gain his trust - leading to Osiris's liberation.

There are therefore two possibilities here:

1. You are in the dark about the sharing of the influence equations.
2. Durk was lying when he said they had been shared with him.

The second is unlikely, as if they hadn't been shared with him, he probably wouldn't have known they existed at all. Perhaps you should ask North East Somerset, if you truly didn't know the equations were shared with Durk, why he shared them with Durk without consultation with you, why he deliberately prolonged the coup d'etat against Osiris, and why he has brought about grounds for a potential condemnation of TNI by his duplicity and double-dealing.

Onderkelkia wrote:It was an exception to the policy; it wasn't a change to the policy.

It was a peculiar set of circumstances involving a multilateral pan-sinker defence treaty. It is not the same as standard alliance/mutual defence pact.

And yet TNI did not, I imagine, raise this prior to or during treaty negotiations with TSP.

TNI did not, I imagine, raise this prior to or during treaty negotiations with TWP either.

And I know for certain that TNI did not raise this prior to or during treaty negotiations with Osiris.

It's awfully convenient to wait until after treaties are ratified to let your allies know that your earlier tolerance of a treaty of mutual defense was an exception to a broader policy against tolerating such treaties, and that any such treaty will result in termination of their alliances with TNI. Or as I like to call it:

Duplicitous subversion.

Onderkelkia wrote:TNI has been making it very clear to anyone who will listen for 8 years that we regard alliances with FRA regions as contemptible.

Our position on regions with ties to the FRA has been made clear time after time, statement after statement - including during the PSSP's duration.

It is frankly the height of the blatantly obvious that allying with two regions at war with each other is normally unacceptable.

See above.

I will only add that it is entirely possible and reasonable for a region to form alliances with regions at war with each other -- particularly when one of the regions doesn't even officially recognize the war -- and to refuse to be a party to that war. To use an example, it would be entirely possible for Osiris to have treaties with both TNI and TRR, to refuse to intervene on behalf of either party if TNI were to invade TRR again because of being allies with both, and to still defend TRR against other aggressors. The only reason this is not possible is because you have decided it shouldn't be, in a blatant demonstration of your contempt for the sovereignty of your Feeder and Sinker allies, which you treat not as allies but as dominions of your empire.

Onderkelkia wrote:Accepting that participation in conventional offensive TNI-led military operations might mean fighting FRA regions and TNI will normally utilise opportunites to attack the FRA is perfectly compatible with not wanting to take part in an occupation of The Rejected Realms.

In any case, whatever you wrongly think to be shocking about the position of these regions, that's not an argument against the actions of TNI.

It's also shocking that you would use your allies for an invasion of which they were unaware and to which they did not give their consent, which is an argument against TNI. Other regions are not your colonies, not your pawns to move around NationStates as you wish, and this attitude toward other regions and their communities is essentially why I am seeking Security Council condemnation against TNI.

by **Zaolat** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:46 pm

Um, Since JAL is a tech guy and has couped GCRs before, so is it like not possible he came up with equations of influence himself? Or is UIAF regions the only ones who can make these equations? Food for thought.

by **Ynys Prydain** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:48 pm

Zaolat wrote:Um, Since JAL is a tech guy and has couped GCRs before, so is it like not possible he came up with equations of influence himself? Or is UIAF regions the only ones who can make these equations? Food for thought.

I would agree that it's possible for him to arrive at the influence equations on his own, but that speculation isn't relevant here. Because if you actually read the logs from "The NPO's Retort" you will see that he admits that the equations were given to him by UIAF.

by **Zaolat** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:55 pm

Ynys Prydain wrote:
Zaolat wrote:Um, Since JAL is a tech guy and has couped GCRs before, so is it like not possible he came up with equations of influence himself? Or is UIAF regions the only ones who can make these equations? Food for thought.

I would agree that it's possible for him to arrive at the influence equations on his own, but that speculation isn't relevant here. Because if you actually read the logs from "The NPO's Retort" you will see that he admits that the equations were given to him by UIAF.

Well, fine I'll come out with it now. I admit that Cormac gave me logs between him and Tim about how they plan to turn Lazarus and TRR into Imperialist regions.

That was easy to admit.

by **Killer Kitty** » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:59 pm

Ynys Prydain wrote:Because if you actually read the logs from "The NPO's Retort" you will see that he admits that the equations were given to him by UIAF.

And, if you read the first page, Cormac, JAL also immediately claimed that the logs were faked.

On top of that, at no point in the logs does JAL ever actually say that TNI gave him the equations, it was Milograd who made that claim on behalf of JAL.

04:18 Milograd I talked with JAL a while ago post-Osi about influence formulas (we have a mutual interest in it; I figured out most of them during TSP).
04:19 Milograd He said that UIAF gave him their influence equations and numbers so that he could hold the region longer, and shared a few with me.

Bunch of "he said she said" by the NPO, who were openly trying to smear the TNI at the time, with little to no supporting evidence. The smoking gun simply isn't there.

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