NATION

PASSWORD

[Submitted] Liberate Haven

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Artigat
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Founded: Jun 05, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Because I failed to get this up earlier in the evening...

Postby Artigat » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:26 am

I admit that I gave up reading this on page 48, so assuming nothing new has occurred since then:

The arguments for this particular “liberation” of Haven seem to come in two flavors: “because it's fun” and “The South Pacific.” Discussion so far seems to have revolved around the merits of the second argument—and this is understandable, considering that most voters would consider Haven's possible participation in the raiding game to be the only legitimate issue that warrants cracking them open for retribution. I would like to focus most of my editorial comments on that section (not that it matters, as the proposal has already been submitted, but whatever):

The proposal's one and only mention of The South Pacific uses the coup of 2013 as a counter to any possible argument of leaving "peaceful regions" to their own devices. Interestingly, this clause provides no explicit proof of the assertion it makes. Even more interestingly, the line doesn't even explicitly connect Haven to those same “peaceful regions” that were “heavily involved” in the coup. Instead, it implies that Haven is like “peaceful regions” that were involved in the coup, but does not actually say, “Haven was involved in this event.” Editorially, I suggest that Haven is more solidly connected to nefarious doings at The South Pacific, with evidence to back it up, in order to give this proposal a snowball's chance in Hell of passing.

This supposes, of course, that the coup in The South Pacific is the primary reason for this proposal in the first place. We know from Mall's own statements that it is not. From the very beginning, Mall has openly explained that the incident in The South Pacific was incidental, and more than anything else a useful excuse, to use the SC to open a region to raiding. To give Mall credit, he has been open about this from the start, and the real purpose of this proposal is obvious in its own language: “Confident that a number of raiding organizations could utilize the region for far more interesting things than the current residents are choosing to,” etc. The fact that I can only give this player credit for being the boldest home-wrecker I have so far encountered in NationStates, however, is itself evidence of the disgusting nature of this proposal, and the frightening implications suggested by its unhindered submission.

To me, this proposal is not important because it intends to weaponize the “liberation” mechanic; as others have already mentioned, liberation has already been used in this way before. This proposal is important (and terrifying) because of the reasoning behind this weaponization. While I would argue against liberation for any reason other than ongoing occupation (and only at the behest of natives of the region in question), I find it difficult to believe that there is an argument for liberation more atrocious than simply, “Because I want to raid.” If this passes—and I am almost certain that it will not, but the fact that it has any support at all worries me, to be honest—NationStates will have a new precedent: Not only will raiders have official sanction to wreck any password-protected region they can scrounge up the votes for, but they will also have official confirmation in the language of this proposal that their vandalism is, for all intents and purposes, the “right” way to play NationStates.

As a player currently residing in a relatively-small, RP-dependent region, I resent the implication that maintaining our tight-knit community of trusted friends is “wrong.” I resent that my RP interests—or any interests that do not include R/D activity—are somehow objectively less interesting, less enjoyable, less worthy of respect, and less valuable to the NationStates community than actions purposely designed to ruin others’ gaming experiences. And while this is less important to me, I also resent that the player putting forward this insulting and dangerous piece of legislation is someone trusted by “those above” to keep the peace, and that the majority of “those above” who have responded to the resulting furor have, through their inaction, allowed this proposal to enter into queue unhindered, while occasionally attempting (and thankfully failing) to stifle the outrage that it has understandably brought about.

I am happy to see that the majority of this community has come together to condemn this action. But I am equally frustrated to see that matters were allowed to come this far. This proposal, apparently designed to blatantly denigrate and actively threaten entire sections of this community via legislation, is an absolute disgrace.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:27 am

Artigat wrote:I admit that I gave up reading this on page 48, so assuming nothing new has occurred since then:

I gotta say the fact that you made it that far is actually incredible all things considered. Obviously you will vote against per your statements but I respect that you read as much as you did to come to your conclusion.
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Swith Witherward
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Postby Swith Witherward » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:28 am

This really doesn't make much sense and sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. It's also a benchmark case which opens the door for other passworded regions to be open to raiding despite the password safeguard.

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Here's a draft that I've been kicking around in my head for awhile. I'm open to all suggestions for improvement, but obviously I will not be abandoning the effort and I do not consider recommendations to scrap this idea entirely as a suggestion for improvement.
Liberate Haven

The Security Council,

Aware that the region Haven has hidden behind a password for a decade,


I'm sorry, but raiders told us over and over again that we should apply passwords to our regions if we didn't want to be raided. It's one several opt-out options available to regions. Does this proposal then mean to state that raiders are providing advice that they themselves acknowledge as bad?


Disappointed that many regions have taken to cowering behind passwords for protection for long durations rather than acting to strengthen themselves,

Yes, and many regions lament that passwords inhibit growth. That's covered in numerous RD-based threads.

Confident that a number of raiding organizations could utilize the region for far more interesting things than the current residents are choosing to,

Mall, your basically saying that I can put your house to better use than you can, thus I should be allowed to move in and rearrange all your furniture.

More than that, raiding organizations can fashion their own threads rather than taking a region and molding it into something that doesn't align with the inhabitant's ideals.

Dismissing the argument that peaceful regions such as Haven should not be attacked by noting that such "peaceful regions" were heavily involved in the 2013 coup of The South Pacific.

Ah, but this proposal isn't really about Haven, is it? It's about setting precedence which will allow further attacks (excuse me, liberations) on regions which also are passworded.

Believing that the activity created by such invasions will outweigh any potential moral evils associated with stripping the region of its protection,

Well now, this is interesting. A region is judged immoral by organizations accused of conducting themselves equally as immorally when they raid unsuspecting regions that have no desire to participate in gameplay. Haven should be allowed to do as they please. After all, it's all in fun, isn't it?

Hoping that this Liberation will spur activity in similarly protected regions lest they meet the same fate,

Thank you for admitting that this is a benchmark geared towards giving raiders the right to attack peaceful regions that use the password feature to opt out of RD entirely.

Hereby Liberates Haven

I'm not familiar with exactly when Haven passworded itself, so if that four year figure needs adjusting one way or the other that information would be appreciated.

Evidence of claims: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=303025&p=20782239#p20782239 Haven native admits Haven involvement
The Haven regional history displays an embassy which lasted only as long as the coup did. Those embassies were used to connect regions which had provided support for Milograd's coup of TSP.

This whole things smacks of finding a way to circumvent password protection on all regions. Perhaps I wouldn't be so against it had the proposal not come from a raider himself.

You are entitled to fashion whatever proposals you wish but, to many people, this proposal seems to reflect that NationStates administration and Moderators will no longer recognize the right for a passworded region to remain passworded. You hold public office. When you speak, people interpret it as Modly.

As I said, this isn't about Haven. This is about tweaking a game mechanic designed to protect regions.
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Tergnitz
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Postby Tergnitz » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:31 am

I am amazed that this rather bizarre proposal was created by a mod, as it constitutes nothing less than a blatantly antagonistic attack on this site's RP community. The R/D mechanic is not one in which I partake, though it do understand that some do and find it quite enjoyable. However, the RP community, in their desire to enjoy this site in a different way, decided to opt-out of the mechanic by utilizing region passwords. That a user, who has theoretically gone through some kind of screening process to obtain his rank as a Moderator, not only created this travesty of a proposal, but then blatantly lied in its defense, shocks me.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:32 am

Swith Witherward wrote:This really doesn't make much sense and sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. It's also a benchmark case which opens the door for other passworded regions to be open to raiding despite the password safeguard.

Actually this isn't the first time this has been tried... in fact it has succeeded before, but only ever on the region Nazi Europe. At this point judging by the level of opposition I would say that this proves pretty definitively that passwords for RP regions are the perfect defense since the NS population as a whole will vote overwhelmingly against a Liberation of their region.
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Retired Major of The Black Hawks
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Vicious Debaters
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Postby Vicious Debaters » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:35 am

I wholeheartedly support Mallorea raising this issue and trying to pull what they're doing here. I think this will come to be a good example of the power of the non-R/D side of gameplay and their ability to assert themselves. In fact, I couldn't think of a better way to prove that the roleplayers, debaters, mentors, and all others who work outside the R/D spectrum can unite to oppose a common foe.

United opposition? Working towards a common goal? You're giving us ideas, Mallorea. :lol2:

No way this'll pass. We'll see what happens- you feel lucky, punk?
Last edited by Vicious Debaters on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nierr
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Postby Nierr » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:38 am

Swith Witherward wrote:As I said, this isn't about Haven. This is about tweaking a game mechanic designed to protect regions.

For about the 50th time across numerous threads, this has already happened.

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Swith Witherward
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Postby Swith Witherward » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:39 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:Actually this isn't the first time this has been tried... in fact it has succeeded before, but only ever on the region Nazi Europe. At this point judging by the level of opposition I would say that this proves pretty definitively that passwords for RP regions are the perfect defense since the NS population as a whole will vote overwhelmingly against a Liberation of their region.

Yeah, I remember the Nazi Europe thing. Total nightmare. :p

It think you'd have done better to remove that one clause which makes it a benchmark. It would turn this proposal into a region-specific thing rather than seemingly all-encompassing. More people might have been inclined to agree.

I also fear the wing-nut vote. Noobs see "liberate" and assume the region is under siege, thus they vote to liberate it. They don't read into the history behind the mess.

Meh. My two cents.
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Nierr
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Postby Nierr » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:40 am

Swith Witherward wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Actually this isn't the first time this has been tried... in fact it has succeeded before, but only ever on the region Nazi Europe. At this point judging by the level of opposition I would say that this proves pretty definitively that passwords for RP regions are the perfect defense since the NS population as a whole will vote overwhelmingly against a Liberation of their region.

Yeah, I remember the Nazi Europe thing. Total nightmare. :p

It think you'd have done better to remove that one clause which makes it a benchmark. It would turn this proposal into a region-specific thing rather than seemingly all-encompassing. More people might have been inclined to agree.

I also fear the wing-nut vote. Noobs see "liberate" and assume the region is under siege, thus they vote to liberate it. They don't read into the history behind the mess.

Meh. My two cents.

This isn't getting to vote. :P

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:43 am

Vicious Debaters wrote:I wholeheartedly support Mallorea raising this issue and trying to pull what they're doing here. I think this will come to be a good example of the power of the non-R/D side of gameplay and their ability to assert themselves. In fact, I couldn't think of a better way to prove that the roleplayers, debaters, mentors, and all others who work outside the R/D spectrum can unite to oppose a common foe.

United opposition? Working towards a common goal? You're giving us ideas, Mallorea. :lol2:

No way this'll pass. We'll see what happens- you feel lucky, punk?

Well that's not why I raised this, it just seems to be the end result. Of course the voters can assert themselves, that's what makes the password mechanic so incredibly effective.
Swith Witherward wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Actually this isn't the first time this has been tried... in fact it has succeeded before, but only ever on the region Nazi Europe. At this point judging by the level of opposition I would say that this proves pretty definitively that passwords for RP regions are the perfect defense since the NS population as a whole will vote overwhelmingly against a Liberation of their region.

Yeah, I remember the Nazi Europe thing. Total nightmare. :p

Meh I thought it was kinda neat. We eventually took the region but there were certainly headaches.

Swith Witherward wrote:It think you'd have done better to remove that one clause which makes it a benchmark. It would turn this proposal into a region-specific thing rather than seemingly all-encompassing. More people might have been inclined to agree.

I also fear the wing-nut vote. Noobs see "liberate" and assume the region is under siege, thus they vote to liberate it. They don't read into the history behind the mess.

Meh. My two cents.
There were a couple of things I could have done differently to garner support, but I tried to make it as straightforward and honest a proposal as possible. Obviously not every agrees with the facts as presented, and they're entitled to their opinion as to what happened in TSP last year. But for those of us who were there, we know :p The "wing-nut" vote is pretty effectively countered by the Delegates who can stomp proposals.
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Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
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Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
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Lykens
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Postby Lykens » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:47 am

Tergnitz wrote:I am amazed that this rather bizarre proposal was created by a mod, as it constitutes nothing less than a blatantly antagonistic attack on this site's RP community. The R/D mechanic is not one in which I partake, though it do understand that some do and find it quite enjoyable. However, the RP community, in their desire to enjoy this site in a different way, decided to opt-out of the mechanic by utilizing region passwords. That a user, who has theoretically gone through some kind of screening process to obtain his rank as a Moderator, not only created this travesty of a proposal, but then blatantly lied in its defense, shocks me.

What does he being a moderator have to do with the resolution?

I don't see why people drag out the fact he's a moderator.

And it's quiet easy to make sure this doesn't pass, don't vote for it.
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Postby United States of Cascadia » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:50 am

Lykens wrote:
Tergnitz wrote:I am amazed that this rather bizarre proposal was created by a mod, as it constitutes nothing less than a blatantly antagonistic attack on this site's RP community. The R/D mechanic is not one in which I partake, though it do understand that some do and find it quite enjoyable. However, the RP community, in their desire to enjoy this site in a different way, decided to opt-out of the mechanic by utilizing region passwords. That a user, who has theoretically gone through some kind of screening process to obtain his rank as a Moderator, not only created this travesty of a proposal, but then blatantly lied in its defense, shocks me.

What does he being a moderator have to do with the resolution?

I don't see why people drag out the fact he's a moderator.

And it's quiet easy to make sure this doesn't pass, don't vote for it.

People are heated about the whole thing and want something to blame, the fact that he's a mod just gives the angry people fuel.
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Elke and Elba
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Postby Elke and Elba » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:51 am

Lykens wrote:
Tergnitz wrote:I am amazed that this rather bizarre proposal was created by a mod, as it constitutes nothing less than a blatantly antagonistic attack on this site's RP community. The R/D mechanic is not one in which I partake, though it do understand that some do and find it quite enjoyable. However, the RP community, in their desire to enjoy this site in a different way, decided to opt-out of the mechanic by utilizing region passwords. That a user, who has theoretically gone through some kind of screening process to obtain his rank as a Moderator, not only created this travesty of a proposal, but then blatantly lied in its defense, shocks me.

What does he being a moderator have to do with the resolution?

I don't see why people drag out the fact he's a moderator.

And it's quiet easy to make sure this doesn't pass, don't vote for it.


Heh, if you think so, there has been things that aren't supposed to pass that passed here and in the GA.

That's why GA regulars have to shoot down things they don't like as quickly as possible before the entire thing turns into a mess.
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Sichuan Pepper
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Postby Sichuan Pepper » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:52 am

Being a moderator is only an issue when it is unpopular. Had Mall written a commend....while we might have pounced on it due to his invader alignment.....his Modship may not have been an issue.

I do not like this resolution and am firmly against it. I am also firmly opposed to most things Mall :P However the fact that he is a Mod really should not be relevant.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:53 am

Sichuan Pepper wrote:Being a moderator is only an issue when it is unpopular. Had Mall written a commend....while we might have pounced on it due to his invader alignment.....his Modship may not have been an issue.

I do not like this resolution and am firmly against it. I am also firmly opposed to most things Mall :P However the fact that he is a Mod really should not be relevant.

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Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
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Postby The Candrian Empire » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:59 am

Sichuan Pepper wrote:Being a moderator is only an issue when it is unpopular. Had Mall written a commend....while we might have pounced on it due to his invader alignment.....his Modship may not have been an issue.

I do not like this resolution and am firmly against it. I am also firmly opposed to most things Mall :P However the fact that he is a Mod really should not be relevant.


Something like this gets proposed at least every few years, and only leads to what can only be described as a shitstorm. It never ends well. Why is him being a mod relevant, you ask? Why would a mod willingly put forward a proposal that the moderation and administrative staff already knows from experience leads to a giant steaming mess all over the forums? Is this a thing mods should be doing? Even if he is posting as a player, not a mod (which is only an academic argument since it is not possible to seperate the two) why would anyone want to raise this stink again?

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Lykens
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Postby Lykens » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:09 am

Elke and Elba wrote:
Lykens wrote:What does he being a moderator have to do with the resolution?

I don't see why people drag out the fact he's a moderator.

And it's quiet easy to make sure this doesn't pass, don't vote for it.


Heh, if you think so, there has been things that aren't supposed to pass that passed here and in the GA.

That's why GA regulars have to shoot down things they don't like as quickly as possible before the entire thing turns into a mess.

Meh, I could have worded that differently, but at this point, I don't care much :L.
The Candrian Empire wrote:
Sichuan Pepper wrote:Being a moderator is only an issue when it is unpopular. Had Mall written a commend....while we might have pounced on it due to his invader alignment.....his Modship may not have been an issue.

I do not like this resolution and am firmly against it. I am also firmly opposed to most things Mall :P However the fact that he is a Mod really should not be relevant.


Something like this gets proposed at least every few years, and only leads to what can only be described as a shitstorm. It never ends well. Why is him being a mod relevant, you ask? Why would a mod willingly put forward a proposal that the moderation and administrative staff already knows from experience leads to a giant steaming mess all over the forums? Is this a thing mods should be doing? Even if he is posting as a player, not a mod (which is only an academic argument since it is not possible to seperate the two) why would anyone want to raise this stink again?

I think prior to Aurelia and I may be mistaken, some of the things I hear, I question myself, a nation was tried, convicted, and executed in the court of public opinion for trying to commend themselves with a puppet. You can only ask him that same question :L.

Edit: fixing grammatical things for clarity.
Last edited by Lykens on Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Pacifican Islands
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Postby The Pacifican Islands » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:35 am

A quote from my friend:

New
1.) Who was the mod that deleted everyone from the old USG?
2.) Which raider unit(s) do the couple mods that raid belong to (I know Mall and Sheep-Flag raid)?

I want to know these because I find it really fishy now that our region had raiders in it less than a day after the founder, the delegate, and every WA nation in our region got deleted. I didn't realize before that mods were allowed to partake in this R/D "game".

I want NO, NONE, ZERO, ZIP allegations made until WE KNOW FOR A FACT, the answers to the questions. They remain the ramblings of a paranoid Slav still looking out for Comrade Stalin to send him to Gulag until we have facts. Is that clear? No fingers pointed, no bad mouthing, no nothing. Just asking questions.

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The Pacifican Islands
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Postby The Pacifican Islands » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:37 am

See? You guys want to "play" this game? R/D is fine, but abusing YOUR mod power to do this? No. No way. I will campaign against this a thousand times if I have to.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:38 am

The Pacifican Islands wrote:A quote from my friend:

New
1.) Who was the mod that deleted everyone from the old USG?
2.) Which raider unit(s) do the couple mods that raid belong to (I know Mall and Sheep-Flag raid)?

I want to know these because I find it really fishy now that our region had raiders in it less than a day after the founder, the delegate, and every WA nation in our region got deleted. I didn't realize before that mods were allowed to partake in this R/D "game".

I want NO, NONE, ZERO, ZIP allegations made until WE KNOW FOR A FACT, the answers to the questions. They remain the ramblings of a paranoid Slav still looking out for Comrade Stalin to send him to Gulag until we have facts. Is that clear? No fingers pointed, no bad mouthing, no nothing. Just asking questions.

Forum mods like me can't delete anyone, but that is a really serious accusation. If you have links and facts please submit a Getting Help Request on the matter. Also "sheep flag" is Blaat who as far as I know has never raided and has in fact lived in founderless regions for years until he moved to a defender region a few days/weeks ago.
Last edited by Mallorea and Riva on Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Mall is following those weird beef-only diets now.

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Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:44 am

Chester Pearson wrote:
The Candrian Empire wrote:Kinda concerned why a mod would put this forward when it's been done before and has caused massive amounts of anger from the RP community every time. Is it intentional trolling? or was it just an absent minded mistake by someone who clearly shouldn't be in charge of moderating a forum with this sort of divisive community?


Please read the last 65 pages, before attempting to incite another flame war please?

Reading the last 65 pages will only confirm his opinion, because that's been the majority opinion for about 65 pages.
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Deamonopolis
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 455
Founded: Jan 21, 2004
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Deamonopolis » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:00 am

Whomever thought it was a good idea to allow game moderators to participate in the invade/defend game? It has conflict of interest written all over it.

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9987
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:04 am

Deamonopolis wrote:Whomever thought it was a good idea to allow game moderators to participate in the invade/defend game? It has conflict of interest written all over it.

It's probably a good thing I'm a forum moderator then :p
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Deamonopolis
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 455
Founded: Jan 21, 2004
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Deamonopolis » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:22 am

Instead of laughing it off you can, ya know, answer why? Haven is, in terms of roleplay, a hugely important region. It's established history goes back 6 years before you registered that nation, so it's a little weird to talk so lightheartedly about something you cannot possibly know.

And even if you did experience the great stories, wars, roleplays and players that were so closely associated with the region Haven, such as The Macabees, Stevid, me, RWC alliance, pre-Golgoth's NATO alliance, Hogsweat, Praetonia, and so forth and so forth... If you know that history and what it stands for, for many of the old guard, then it's especially shameful that you trample it all in the name of raiding/defending. As a game moderator you take part in the very thing you are supposed to manage; which is the conflict of interest I am refering to.

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Swith Witherward
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30350
Founded: Feb 11, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Swith Witherward » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:32 am

Sichuan Pepper wrote:Being a moderator is only an issue when it is unpopular. Had Mall written a commend....while we might have pounced on it due to his invader alignment.....his Modship may not have been an issue.

I do not like this resolution and am firmly against it. I am also firmly opposed to most things Mall :P However the fact that he is a Mod really should not be relevant.

Naw, I'd give him hell anyway and risk the newspaper slap. :p

As a Mod, he does an excellent job. I mean that, and posted it on another thread. A lot of us were wary of him at first because he is a raider. I was very much impressed by the way he handled reports those first few days.

But, I still feel that raider Mods shouldn't write raider-friendly proposals using their jacketed name, or weigh in on reports against raiders or defenders. That's just my way of thinking; it strips away any sense of abuse of power, etc and so forth and yada yada. But that's neither here nor there and hopefully this whole thing blows over soon.
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